A controversial question, but one I feel must be asked. It always seems to me as if this guy chokes when the REALLY big pressure games come round, but put him thru a regular domestic season and he is simply sublime. I will be very keen to see his performances at Euro 2004 as I feel he needs to back up his league form with something special on the 2nd biggest stage he will get to play on in his career. To this point in time tho I always have that feeling of doubt when it's a true do or die situation in a huge competition with Henry. A case in point is his form after being knocked out of the CL! coming back to the EPL and destroying teams singlehandedly..why does he not do this in the games where his team needs him the most? Henry is that kind of player whom I actually want to succeed, some of the things he attempts mid-game are breathtaking, but I feel if he doesn't do 'it' on the international or CL stage he isn't going to bracketed with the catergory of player he deserves to be mentioned alongside. If he flops at Euro 2004 and is fully fit it is going to be very hard for him to redeem himself. Some say he is the best striker in the world, but how can that be the case when there is an almost ineviatable air of 'the choke' around him when the sh!t really hits the fan? so to speak. I'd like to hear opinions on this most perplexing player and for some to look past his league form and consider the bigger stages before answering the question posed. If you think he is a choker then what do you think he can do to exorcise this demon? And if you don't think he's a choker..then could you explain away wc2002 and the CL's since?
Like you said, he is a phenomenal player, but I agree, sometimes he does drop the ball... although I am not convinced that it is not completely coincidental... I remember earlier this seaon when Arsenal were all but out of the CL and they went on a spree... led by him and Pires and one game in particular against Inter when he demolished them... the scoreline was 5-1, but it was much closer than that in reality and even in the scoreline for most of the game. However, Henry took the team on his shoulders and beat defenders one on one to set up 2 goals and score either one or two as well... true it was still in the group stages, but it was against Inter at the San Siro.
But you can't live off 2 or even 3 good performances in such a competition...look at Prso.his demolition of Deportivo was insane but it is the cumaltive affect that will stand out.
The people saying he's not a choker, would you care to give reasons why not? or is it just blind support for the player?
i think he is a choker. domestically he is very good, but put him in the CL or a big international competition and he is nothing special. even against subpar teams like dynamo kiev, lokomotiv, and inter he is an average player. the year before in the CL he was nothing either.
I wouldn't call Inter a subpar team and he scored two goals against them in an important match. He also scored two goals against Celta. If you look at some of the recent CL results, you could hardly say Arsenal had that leg wrapped up before the second match. You say you can't judge him on two or three great performance, but you want to judge him on two or three subpar performances. He does have the occassional subpar match in the Premiership and for now I would say he has had two subpar CL matches. I do understand why you bring this up, but for now I don't think he has consistently underperformed in enough big games to be branded a choker. If I were a doctor or even played one on TV and this were some sort of potential condition, I would say let's keep an eye on it, but I don't think there is enough to get too worried about yet.
Consider that most of the times you mention the entire team has been shut down.... and I really think calling Inter a sub part team is silly... I would not even call Lokomitiv a sub-part team... not in CL because if you have to play in Russia when it is 900 below against a team that is used to it, you have a tough task... but its not just temperature... they have good players too... anyway... I am not saying he is not a choker, but there have been instances of him showing up for big games and instances of him not showing up... who knows what will be the end result...
And the World Cup? What are peoples views on his showings there? This was supposed to be his defining moment .especially in the absece of Zidane....
I see the point of your question. I have one of my own. How can anybody who is leading the EPL even be considered a choker? Its not as if he is a player who is tearing it up in some 3rd rate league who isn't performing in when it counts in International competitions. This is a world class player, playing for a world class team, against world class players day in a day out. I see your point that his performances in international competitions and in CL were not what we would have hoped for, but neither was his teams. Maybe his team is a bunch of chokers? It seems to me that without him, Arsenal would not be at the top of the table in one of the best leagues in the world. Don't even get me started on France and their lack of ability to impress lately...
But doing it in your home league can only be the tip of the iceberg. If you are truly a great player and not a choker it should not matter what scene you are playing on in fact, the bigger scene the better you should play right? Rising to the occasion and all right? Now doubt that after his exploits in the EPL this season some will be calling for him to win the world/euro player of the year, but how can that be the case if he flops at Euro 2004 like he did at the World Cup. For a man of such incredible ability he has underperformed in the CL! He's one of the most technically gifted players on the planet, but I think his mental block stops him from being what he should be..
first off the whole french team were very poor at the last world cup,not just henry,but then again they haddent played a competitive match for two years,the last one being the european cup final and lets face it they were all rubbish in japan. anyway the thing is the cl and epl,games are played in a very different manner to each other.the premier league,is very fast and marking is tight to your man,which due to henrys blistering pace suits him and the whole arsenal team to play with fast breaks and counter attacks. champions league is played at a slower pace to the epl,and you get more space and time on the ball,which makes it much harder to break teams down,and it just doesnt suit players like henry because instead of turning a defender at the shoulder and going, you have to invite the tackle,were as the defender will back back and wait for a covering player to close you down. but people tend to forget the amount of scoreing opportunity's henry sets up for his team mates in cl games,while he's being closed down he'd offten produce a killer ball between defenders into the box. so yes i agree he does'nt score enough in the big games,but he tends to makes up for it with his over all play.
See thats where you have it... there are some players who perform great... there are some players who are great... David Beckham is great... on all stages.. he may not do all the things some people expect but he gets the job done... Like John Paxon, slow, white, no handle... all he did was win games for the Bulls... Henry has performed great in the past, but he is not yet a great player... most players have a defining moment, something that once they get past it, sets them on the road to glory, Henry has not had his yet, maybe it will come, maybe it wont, but he still does great things, even if he is not yet a GREAT player... I know this is about Thiery but thinking about it just makes me realize how great David is... there is no player on the planet with as much pressure to perform than him... with the largest spotlight, the biggest name and the time in football when the game freezes and all eyes are on you... against Greece in the 3rd minute of time added on, penalty kick in the last world cup... every single corner he takes... every cross he attempts... man... I don't think most people could stand the pressure he is under...
oh bullocks, how can you possibly call Beckham a great player? do you jugde players now by the ability to withstand pressure instead of skills? your examples to prove that are just ridiculous. you don't have to be a great player to keep your nerves when it matters. true, Beckham is very good at freekicks and crosses, but that's about it. he doesn't have the slightest bit of imagination, his idea of great football is to run around the pitch like some chased rabbit, and a good cross into the box is about the maximum you'll see by him. his penalty against argentina was very poor by any standard, he was very lucky to score... regarding Henry, as it was pointed out before, he did have some very good games when it really mattered. the last poor form in the cl was due to a slight injury, he didn't just play poorly in the cl, but also a few games before that in the epl, not really important games. combine that with a complete blackout of the whole team in the second half against Chelsea, and you don't really have a case here. same thing with France in 2002, the whole team failed. compare that with his excellent performance in the wc final 1998, a game where it certainly mattered...
He's not a choker !! you know why ?? At the World cup 1998, he was only 20 years and he decide, before the coach ask him, to kick the penalty against Italy. And he kicked it with success !!
This doesn't stand up at all. To this point in his career Henry is known for handful of moments at international/CL standard expected by any player touted as being one of the best players in the world. These moment are few and far between, he is not injured for all of the games, surely? recently Henry was interviewed by an English commentator and asked if his team, Arsenal were choking as in throwing away all this seasons hard work. Henry's face visibly changed, he looked upset 'choking is not in my vocabulary' he said forthrightly, but his eyes told another story. I'm betting when, if ever he truly takes a Euro, World or CL tournament by storm he will say something about proving his doubters wrong. Something he has to hold in for now, until he does the business expected of him. I don't buy this 'whole team was not playing wll' reasoning at all. Do you know why? Because in the EPL there have been numerous times when Arsenal were awful yet Henry was on another planet and won them games despite the poorness of the team as a collective. Another point regarding this is that Henry is not a normal player. He has shown from time to time he doesn't neccessarily need his team to be playing well for him to rip the opposition to shreds. When the massive games come along however he looks different: edgy, nervous and actually quite irratable/angry which is not his normal demeanour, that suggests to me a mental block, an awareness that he has demons to overcome. He reminds me very much of how Raul used to be until he overcame his own personal baggage. When the massive games come along now I fully expect Henry to choke..the time he proves me wrong on this will be a revelation. I hope he is fit for Euro2004 and I really hope he does superbly well in that tournament becuase i feel that the moniker of choker is going to be firmly etched on his forehead soon. Because you cannot display such stellar ability in your league for such an amount of years and have nothing to show for it as an individual regarding your overall performances on the international stages. Nothing was expected of Henry at Wc1998..he wasn't even a striker then and he was very young and hadn't exhibited so many moments of sublime individualism as he has since 2000 until now. Rightly so, as his stock has grown expectation must grow also. People know what Henry is all about now and so nations and billions of watching fans expect, he has the skills to do it! technically there isn't much between him and even Zidane but mentally they are utterly poles apart and that is where Henry's problems lay. A person of such a skill level has no business shining only in the EPL and so I see him as a choker.
That doesn't stand up for me. Henry is often outside the realms of normality in the EPL so what would make the WC where he is up against arguably inferior players any reason for him to step back into normality? The truly great make things happen. I fully expected Henry to do this in Zidanes absence. HE buckled and for want of a better word choked under the pressure he suddenly had directly on his shoulders with him being instilled as the teams talismann in the absence of Zidane. Don't forget Henry went into that WC on the back of a phenomenal league campaign in which he had taken Arsenal's reigns firmly in hand in moments of need so what happened? Henry is one of the most intelligent players who are active today. There is not a tactical scenario that can surpess such brilliance only a mental block by the exponent. Besides which even if he doesn't make a run he has the passing nous to play in teammates with plays Ronaldinho or Zidane would applaud. So what happened when he destroyed Roma and Inter? two teams who were fully aware of his capabilities and played him tactically to the best of their ability? Here is one for you to think about..imagine if Henry had continued in that vain for the rest of that tournament and not just for a few games. Would I have made this thread in that instance? Henry has every single tool needed to unlock any defence in world football except a confident mind. I would argue that in the biggest games Henry shirks his goalscoring requirements and lays the ball off alot more than neccessary and thus shirks his responsibilities. He doesn't man up in other words..if he took his shots and missed them then fair enough, but i've seen him get himself in such a state he'll try some ridiculous thru ball at a time when the shot is the easier option. That is choking! But does he? With his ability it will be a crime if he doesn't lead Arsenal to a CL title or have a massive hand in any future success France may have between now and the end of his career. He's too good to be Zidane's passenger, he should be sharing the spotlight with him can you suggest a reason other than choking why he shouldn't?
Yet he still managed to bang in a couple of goals without falling to the ground, quivering like a leaf, and crying for his mama. In other words, he didn't choke. Your posts are silly. You've already made up your mind on the matter, yet you pretend you want to discuss it. The guy is brilliant, but he's had some off games under tremendous pressue. Everyone does.
To Visca Barca... Get this... Who is the best freekick taker in the world? Who is the best crosser in the world? Who is the best long ball passer in the world? Beckham... he cant dribble for ********, but he works hard and tackles back... many would have no problem calling Figo great but Beckham aint great? I was pointing out that Beckham gets it done when it matters most... in 2002 iirc england had at one point 5 goals... Beckham was involved in 4. G.R.E.A.T. I don't give a sh!t what you think.. he is a great player... not the best in the world and some people honestly are fools who think him better than he is... but he rarely disapoints... last year against Madrid, comming on as a sub... played with great heart and determination, did not whine or complain and got results, not enough to overturn the first leg deficit, but damn he was inspired.. Becks is a great player - if you cannot admit to that then maybe you just hate ManU and Real... I am a Barca fan and I can say that on your team are 2 great players 1 soon to be great and perhaps one of the top 3 chokers in recent times... again.. I don't feel that Henry is a choker, give him a few more shots, after Euro and 2006 if he has still not done anything then fine... you can say he dominated at club level but not internationally.. but remember there are always reasons... would u label Scholes a choker? he is great for MUFC but the opposite for England... maybe its the systems and different coaches they play under... maybe its team chemistry.. who knows...
I don't know where to start with this, you have either hardly seen Beckham play the game or are lying because Real are rivals of Barca.
Dark Savante you don't really have a clue about football, do you? are you american? you don't seem to understand one vital thing: football is a TEAM sport!!! you talk as if it's Henry's responsability alone to win matches. and as if great players ALWAYS have to be in top form. that proves two things, first he's a great player, and second, the opposition was very poor. and here we come to the topic, it is impossible for a player, however great he is, to beat a top team single-handedly. yet that seems to be what you expect from him. again, you're confusing a whole team with a player. it's true about Arsenal, they do get that reputation of not being able to stand the pressure of the end of a season (as has bayer leverkusen in germany for example), but how can you possibly equate that with one single player. football is not quantum mechanics (schroedingers cat) enough of this, i'm not really in the mood to waste my time for your nonsense anymore... i'm off drinking champagne
Henry a choker? Maybe, I know Trezeguet is. Henry makes Trezeguet look good. Henry's problem is that maybe he doesn't rise to the occasion in a One-off game. In Club football he'll see the same squads and players more than once a year so its easy to adjust to them and what they'll do. I'd say Beckham has Iron Nerve. But greatness is well....prove it. Its easy to say Zidane is great, Rivaldo is great, Figo is great, they Win Awards for their play. People do not generally argue how good or'great' they are. Now "CHOKING" is normally decided as the chance to WIN the match, game, competition and blowing it or screwing it up. In that case, Micheal Owen is also a Choker. Beckham has proven he can do the job (penalty vs Argentina, Quality debateable but he scored). Trezeguet, obvious choker (WC 2002 and CL Final vs Milan). How many players, other than strikers can say they'll get a chance to win the game w/ ball on foot and Goalmouth apparent? From the Penalty spot and other easy chances around the box. Goalkeepers can choke, but can defenders or midfielders who engage in a tactical series during the match instead of one-off chances? Choking is like a plague that follows a player regardless of what stage. Scholes can't score for England, scores for Man Utd, not Choker. But has Scholes been given obvious, Wide-OPEN, schoolboy chances at goal and flubbed them? Personally, I have a GREAT malcontent for players who miss penalties, More than one. Which is why I place Ruud Van Nistelrooij in the Top 10 Strikers in the World but not no.1. Now...Henry is a great player he does everything but tackle and dominate aerially. Beckham is a great passer, set piece taker, penalty, decent tackler, not fast, not a dribbler, but he's been groomed as a footballer to be so. Zidane, Nedved, great player can do most things, lead teams to victory, when not expected. The Czech Republic was undefeated until the most recent friendly. But Great players can choke,'Greatness' and 'Choking' are traits that can exist in the same player. But one thing to note, chronic chokers are not top level players, so everyone will CHOKE but its who does it the least.
see right here you've missed the point entirely. You cannot be labelled a choker when you're just starting out. Even if you fail it can be down to your age and inexpirence At world Cup 98 I wouldn't have said anything about Henry's performances whether they were awful or not. The point is he is now seen as one of the fore runners in the world i.e often named in the top 3 players on earth! As such you must produce on the biggest stages! there is no way around that, fact. For a player of such ability he has failed to so at nearly every opportunity and then almost magically goes back to the EPL and dominates again..The last case being after the Chelsea game..where he came back and destroyed teams..what is that? Cos he was injured against Chelsea?? if he flops at Euro 2004 and then goes on to have a nother stellar season in the EPL afterwards will he be a choker or not? In the EPL certainly Which is commonly reffered to as choking! They do? Like who? Who of such a sublime skill level can you compare with Henry? There's a difference between being shut out and blatant underperformance. You don't agree?
Is this a Spurs thread? Is there some universal definition of 'choker' that I wasn't aware of? Here's my contributory question: Can you name any player on the planet that would command a higher transfer fee at this moment in time than Thierry Henry? I didn't think so...and that my friends, is the ultimate arbiter of a player's value........ This discussion is the bigsoccer version of "Shaq sucks 'cuz he can't make free throws."
Lol it would seem that compared to you I am clueless Football may well be a team sport, but once in a while a player will come along who can play outside of a team and accordingly bring himself back into it anytime he so chooses. How can you tell me Henry is this type of player? He often sets up team mates and scores a bundle for himself in the EPL, but what about for France? or when is team really, really, reallyyyy need him in the CL to that he hasn't come up big in many massive games outside of the aforementioned Roma and Inter games after that he's been quite pedestrian when you compare him to himself and what he is capable of. Am I lying? And what makes GREAT players great is the fact that they are 9/10times on top form and can be relied upon to carry their team(s) whenever it's needed..there arre at least 30 true examples of this type of player who have done just this still playing the game today...and i'm talking about on the big stages CL, Euro's, Americas, World Cup By your logic there is no excuse for his displays against Senegal, Uruguay and Denmark then right? becuase no offence to any of these teams but they do not have players or a team anywhere near as good as the Chelsea's, Man Utd's, Newcastle's or Liverpools of the EPL - all of which Henry has badly damaged in the past - so what exactly are you saying? Because it cannot be a coincidence that it so happens to be the hugest games/stages on which Henry often disappears that's why.
well, i do have to admit, as a Barca and Arsenal fan i never really could stand that guy... though it's certainly not just that, i don't like the way he sells himself, or better how he is sold. but yes, i know, modern footbal and so. but appart from that, i said before, he's very good at freekicks and crosses, but you can parctise that as much as you want in training to get it right. when it comes to non-standard things, where a bit of imagination is required, he's crap. he's just running and running and running. but that's what i think great player should be, a bit imaginative. that doesn't mean he was useless for ManU, you can see now that they miss him, but that's also prooves that ManU didn't have a lot of depth, they were relying too much on him. your comments about Henry, not sure if they are addressed to me, if you'd read what i wrote about that, you'd know that i don't think he's a choker either... a good weekend to everyone!