Attendance is way down from the first two years, which means $$$ are way, way down. Given the state of the economy, I wonder how much longer they can keep going as a team. Any thoughts? Any word on this new league that may get started up? Any truth in it? I'm hearing it's in the works, but don't see how that could work either. No fans = no league = no team.
Easy on the doom and gloom there.... Attendance is down but we aren't at Miami FC type levels yet. I have no inside information but it sure seems like we have steady sponsorships and a very solid ownership group. Nobody can bleed money forever but I think it would take numerious years in the red for anything drastic to happen. The whole "Spread Your Wings" foundation, ties with local youth clubs, all the charity work - that will pay off in the long run when the RailHawks are a permanent fixture in the community.
Let's not forget that they're not playing in some high school stadium. It's a large complex with plenty of extra fields that are making money. The money isn't just in the stands.
Um, if they managed the whole complex and received the revenue from field rentals/stadium rentals, then your point would be a valid one. However, they have absolutely nothing to do with anything in the park except for renting the stadium on game days and office space the rest of the year. So, your point is inaccurate. So, yes, the money for them is, like you said, in the stands.
Snaps on me! You'd think they'd cut them a break on rent if things went really hard up. No primary tenant would really suck for the man.
RailHawks have solid ownership / financial backing. In fact, one of our owners (Bob Young) has said he'd like to invest in a second USL-1 team in Hamilton, Ontario. The bigger question, which you hinted at, is where does USL-1 go in the next few years with the clubs leaving for MLS creating a vacuum. That will be interesting to see. I expect the RailHawks to have the biggest home crowd of the year this weekend against Puerto Rico...
A better decision might be to take the RailHawks to Hamilton. Rather than start a new one. Then you have the management group of a successful CFL team to help with administration, something that appears to be sorely needed in the current RailHawks organization.
Rumor (qualified source) has it that the owners of the teams that make up the USL-1 teams have had enough with the leadership (or lack thereof) that currently exists in the USL and want to start their own league. It seems to be spearheaded mostly by the Miami FC ownership group, Traffic, who feel that the product that is currently in the USL could be put on more of a grand stage, similar to MLS, with MLS marketing dollars and coverage. I think it's a long shot, because if people already don't pay attention to the MLS, why would they pay attention to another league. It just seems like a lot of money will be put into a venture that is destined to fail. The MLS will continue to swoop in and acquire markets that the USL (or whatever the new league is called, if it comes to fruition) and it will render the team in that area obsolete. It's happened in Toronto, Seattle, Atlanta, and soon to be in other USL markets in the near future.
You don't think that could be a viable option? There are already teams in Vancouver and Montreal, and there used to be one in Toronto. Seems to me like this could be a natural fit.
I'm talking about the jab at the RailHawks' administration (not even sure what that means) They've brought in a winning coach, winning players, made a great effort to connect with the fans/community, we have a fabulous training facility/stadium... why do you think they would want to move?
It comes down to dollars and cents. If you can't put enough people in the stands to make up close to half of your budget (I would estimate that the annual budget for the RailHawks is in the 1.8 million dollar range), then you won't be able to be around for very long. So, I think they would need to bring in around 900K in ticket sales in order to stay viable. So, let's do some math. At 900K divided by $11 per ticket average (just pulling this number out by looking at ticket prices), you would need about 80,000 fans per season to purchase a ticket. That puts you around 4000 paid fans per game if you assume 20 games per season. That's a lot of fans, by any standard, and their attendance numbers are not reflective of that. They've got a long way to go. I would figure on them maybe making 1.1 million in revenue this year, with sponsorships and ticket sales. So that's probably around 700K in losses. No matter how deep pockets are, that's a tough pill to swallow. Yes, the team is successful. Yes, they are winning. And that's great. But if you aren't seeing the market responding to that success, I would think you would have to figure something out to make it work. I don't see or hear very much marketing. I haven't seen one RailHawk television commercial this season. I have heard maybe 5 radio commercials this season. How are they expecting to bring people in?
Somehow, I think the Wellmans may take issue with this. Have you looked at attendence for the rest of the league? Yes attendence in Cary is down this season, but the RailHawks are still in the top half of the league in terms of attendence. In my opinion, the RailHawks will be one of the anchor franchises of USL-1 for the foreseeable future.
Unless you've got a look at their books, your numbers are nothing but pure speculation. The math makes sense, but is there any grounding in reality that those are actual numbers? We've got no idea what the sponsorships are bringing in, what the players are being paid, what the owners' tolerance to operate at loss is (tax right off, anyone?), etc. Incidentally, Carolina is nowhere near the bottom of the league in attendance. (See league avg/median below) and we've also got no idea how their facility costs stack up against other clubs, so I find it hard to believe that anyone outside their financial inner circle can have any realistic insight into what their operational solvency really is. Code: Year Average Median %<2K %>10k 2002 2494 1980 50.0% 1.1% 2003 2739 1631 55.8% 2.1% 2004 3636 3061 30.0% 2.5% 2005 3984 3507 23.3% 3.3% 2006 4284 3292 11.7% 5.0% 2007 4219 3740 26.7% 8.3% 2008 4935 4382 13.6% 10.2% 2009 4157 3311 18.6% 6.8%
You're making numbers up, you're counting ticket sales as the only source of revenue, you're discounting the fact we had extremely poor weather for quite a few of our home games to start the season, you're not factoring in the very poor economy, you're not looking at some of the games that will bring in a lot of fans (this weekend and July 3rd, to name a few) - are you really suggesting that the RailHawks, of all the teams in USL, are in danger? Have you paid any attention to the rest of the league?
Do you even read people's posts? No wonder no one comes on this forum anymore. I very clearly take into account the sponsorship side of things. My guess is that they brought in around 600K in sponsorships this year and will bring in somewhere in the 500K number in ticket sales, so bringing the total to 1.1 million. I was pretty clear in that. Again, just a guess, but I know business and think this is reasonable. And yes, I am taking into account the economy and the weather (just more excuses). That's why I guessed that they were operating at a 700K loss this year. I was pretty clesar in that. I think. Wasn't I? And yes, I have taken a look at the rest of the league. And few of them could handle the 2 million per team (or so) that it would take to start a new league in the US to compete with MLS. That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to be argumentative. I think the team is playing very well and seeing success like never before. Big props to Martin for that. But the team won't be around long, no matter what the success is on the field, if the dollars don't make sense. And, as a business person, they don't make sense to me.
Wow, so I've been the reason for the lack of people on here all along, my bad.. I know what will bring more fans and discussion - by telling them that the ownership sucks, they're losing lots and lots of money (with no evidence), and they should move the team to Canada!
JESUS CHRIST ON A CRUTCH! Come on! After the swell job that Traffic USA has done with Miami FC, do you thing ANYONE would want to do business with them starting a new league? Please. Lighten up, Francis.
Since when did professional sports have any relation to the normal business world? Very few pro sports teams earn a profit. They're typically just toys for businessmen who are making their real money somewhere else. If pro sports teams needed to balance their books every year just to stay alive, you could kiss the EPL goodbye. Premier League clubs boast £3.1bn of debt
Well, since I lived in Manchester from birth til 16 years of age, I think that qualifies me to be a Man U fan. When did you become a big fan of Stormy? I assume after the Stanley Cup run.
What was the announced attendance for the game against the Islanders this past Saturday? My estimation was that it was in the 1,500 range, from what i saw. Not quite the biggest home crowd of the year, but hey, more than 1,000!!!
The crowd was disappointing to say the least. I'm so glad that other folks' misfortune and errors make you so happy. I was wrong in one prediction I made in this thread. Still, I expect I don't have the worst "batting average" in the conversation