Was this his plan all along?? First of all, here were my thoughts all the way back in November when I wrote this I felt that the 4-4-2 needed to change.. to evolve and move us into a modern era – a hybrid system needed to be created. We’ve seen a system come about since the start of March that is a site to behold. This is what the great Johan Cruyff had to say about it recently: http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/sport...objectid=18908728&siteid=98487-name_page.html I said this: 4 days before the Mirror printed their interview with Cruyff. It doesn’t take a genius to note something is afoot. The concept for total football is one we are mirroring in attack. We have a right-sided (forward) winger who players the entire length of the pitch horizontally. You can see him pop up on the left, through the middle or in any deep position on the counter attack. Our left sided attacker is a support striker nominally, who also plays the entire length of the pitch horizontally. Our striker is free to do whatever he likes. Our player in the hole is the LOTW, who is a nominal left winger, who has also learnt how to play the right flank these past few years. And we have a deep-lying playmaker behind him who is allowed to pick any number of passes because of all the activity in front of him. I wrote a lengthy post that I managed to delete in the Watford match thread. In it I highlighted a lot of the things I’m about to say. One thing I felt necessary to re-write almost word for word, as best as I can remember, is my disappointment in the tactical understanding of the BBC team for that game. They came out and slaughtered Watford for poor defending across the backline giving little acknowledgement of how hard it is for that level of player to track three world class attackers frequently interchanging position with constant, precise supply from deep and a willing forward offering a surplus distraction. Consider; you’re a right-back whose brief is to track your man on your side of the pitch. You find that your man has decided to completely abandon the left wing and has instead drifted right into the centre of the pitch. If you follow him you are abandoning your flank. If you don’t, you’re letting your man go and if he scores it’s your fault. So what do you do? Track him, or stay where you are and mark ‘space’ zonally? If you follow him your flank has been abandoned and it forces your winger to come back and fill in, which then invites the opposing left-back to mosey on down the flank and hem that side of the pitch in as well as provide width. If you don’t follow him you’re not contributing to defence. Now, this alone is not a particular problem if you only have this dilemma on one flank. But what should a team then do when the other flanker is posing the same question on the other side of the pitch? We then add the non-existent #9 who instead of being tight to the CB’s is drifting around the penalty area.. should they go toward him and compromise position or stay where they are? In most instances a side will track the runners. What this does to their defence as a whole is pile full-backs on top of their own centre-backs, creates chaos and makes it incredibly easy for a DLP and the playmaker in front of him to pick hole after hole in the melee in ahead of them. Example 1. Initial positions on attack (default xi) -------------VDS -------Rio---------Wes Gaz-----------------------Evra -------Carrick---Scholes -------------Giggs -Ronaldo-----------------Rooney --------------Saha A basic formation. Almost a 4-4-2 with nominal roles defined. Exactly what we go back to when an attack breaks down. 2. Second stage of attack. -------------VDS ---------------------- -------Rio---------Wes Gaz----------Scholes----Evra ---------Carrick--------Giggs ---------------Saha -Ronaldo-----------------Rooney The #9 drops back, the flanks push on, the play-maker drifts wide to find space, the fullbacks push on, the DLP advances behind the ball as does Scholes forcing the opposition deep into their own half. The centre-backs play a higher line of defence. 3. Third stage. -------------VDS ----------- ------------------Wes------------ ---------Rio----Scholes Gaz ---------Carrick---------- ----------------------------Giggs ---------------Saha--------------Evra -Ronaldo-----------------Rooney The flanks encroach on the box, often switching positions. Evra is in the final 3rd, Giggs hovers around the area just ahead of the centre circle. Rio fills in as a DCM until Carrick gets back, Gaz is playing as a wingback and Saha is bombing straight down the middle whilst both Ronaldo and Rooney go where they feel they can do the most damage. At all times Carrick remains behind the ball as does Rio and Wes in particular. The more the attack develops the more players arrive from deep with Scholes pushing on when he can. Effectively we can have anywhere from the four default attackers (Giggs, Saha, Ronaldo and Rooney) in the opposition third to seven players across the half-way line looking to attack or supply from deep as well as keep the width along the flanks. The only constant in this is that the back 5 in the third stage rarely breach formation and neither does Evra as he will work that flank in two directions only. Where the chaos is created is in the movement of the nominal front four. With a constant shape behind them they are all relieved of defensive duty for the duration of the attack. They are the fastest players in our side and this as well as the interchange has sides in fits. A lot of the detractors for the Roma performance have said that Roma’s defence was shambolic, not acknowledging how much of a problem a defence has when both flanks are being breached at the same time with tremendous pace and the wide men are not staying wide. You can have the best full-backs in the world. If they are not being engaged head-on and are not tracking their man infield, how much use are they? If you take note of how many crosses we put into the box you will see that they are infrequent from our forward line, to say the least. Our fullbacks are the ones expected to put crosses in. Everyone across the front line is expected to contribute goals or a passing interchange combined with movement. These are basic concepts executed at incredible pace with tremendous synergy. It makes it hard for the opposition to contain when we’re on. It is usually when we have an off day that it stutters and becomes containable again. I would say you would need two very solid DM’s/DCM’s stopping supply to the drifting front four to contain us outright at this moment in time. If you can reduce the passing lanes that 3 very good users of the ball have open to them then you can stop a lot of what we are doing to teams. But even then it is a big ask with the passing triangles we are conjuring up through the middle of the pitch as well as the individual brilliance of Ronaldo, Rooney and Giggs to make something out of nothing and start a chain up all by themselves. This thread isn’t meant to be a pat on the back for us, rather an attempt to break down what we’re doing before getting to the point I wanted to make. In the system we are now using no player gets in the way of another one. Every man has a quadrant of the pitch all to himself and when one player breaches another player’s quadrant, the player who was initially there simply goes into the quadrant that was vacated. When you see Ronaldo on the left side of the pitch have a quick look at where Giggs and Rooney go. There is an equidistance between these three at almost all times whilst the CF goes straight at the throat of the opposition. It is fascinating to watch. The reason why Giggs gets that role in the hole ahead of Scholes is his pace and dribbling ability. Giggs has taken to running across the pitch at top speed in a burst to make space for himself that DM’s are struggling to keep up with. They see him burst off and they often let him free rather than track and compromise position. This burst of acceleration is allowing the playmaker(s) behind Giggs to fire off quick passes to feet at the most unexpected of angles and because Giggs has slipped his man (the DM) he is in a lot of space to fire off really penetrative passes for those in front of him to latch on to. This was exhibited to the full in the Roma game. The five assists Giggs supplied all had a root in this kind of action and each time he made a pass he made space for himself in this way. Scholes may be a better passer and user of the ball, but Giggs’ burst of acceleration is quite foreign to the position he is playing right now and is giving him an advantage against players who are not used to that kind of speed through the middle of a pitch. Another addition you may have seen is that with the familiarity Giggs is forging with Rooney they are switching their positions absolutely. At which time Rooney drops into his true position as does Giggs and as Giggs is an expert at LW and Rooney is at his best in the hole we immediately change to a 4-4-2 for a brief moment often to devastating effect. The goal Rooney scored against Watford to open the scoring on Saturday was an example of his superfluous nature from the wide positions to the hole. It all happened so quickly as well, which is what opposing teams have to consider at all times with this new system. It is a real nightmare for full-backs in particular. I’d like to see our percentage reduction in crosses attempted. It must be huge. Our wide-men rarely look to get anywhere near the corner flag unless they are using themselves as decoy runners. What I wonder, though. Is if Fergie had this contingency plan in mind since last summer where he wanted both a DLP and a runner for the midfield. He’s kept Rooney out wide to the chagrin of supporters for the duration of this season almost. We all wondered why on earth our SS was being dumped out on the wing when it was clear he could be so damaging dead-centre of the pitch. We all wondered why Giggs was being used centrally so frequently when it was clear he wasn’t as comfortable there as he is out wide. Why was Scholes being sat so deep whilst Carrick was allowed to move forward? The list of questions you could ask is sizeable. But in the last few months we are slowly getting answers to what could have been pondered. I believe the role Giggs is now playing has been created for Rossi to slot into in the future. First via rotation with Ryan and then eventually taking the role on full time. It is the perfect position for Giuseppe. In fact, it’s an Italian position by design. That which they call the fantista a string-puller with an edge and a large scoring threat of his own. Giuseppe has shown that he can work the left-wing decently at Newcastle and he has the technique to interplay with Rooney from the hole to the left side of a forward line without a doubt. Where this position favours Rossi greatly is in his short-burst acceleration. Rossi has explosive pace off the mark and in the same way Ryan gets away from DM’s, Rossi can do the exact same. His passing is exceptional and his shooting from that area is also very, very good. It negates the problems of Rooney and Rossi playing together in a 4-4-2 and it affords us constant flexibility. I also think that if Fletcher is not to take that runner job permanently then this is what Hargreaves or whomever will be brought in to do. Scholes’ position will slowly be relinquished with Carrick moving into a role as chief passer and the man next to him will do the running. The set-up for next season would be thus: -----------------------VDS -----------------Rio---------Vidic Gaz-------------------------------------------Evra -Fletcher/Hargreaves---Scholes/Carrick --------------------Giggs/Rossi -Ronaldo-----------------------------------Rooney ------------------------Saha/?? If it were affordable I believe Torres would be put up top and this team would be complete as an xi and set up for the next 5yrs at least with all the replacements we need in line to take over in due course. The tactical flexibility is endless and best of all, a universal system we can use against any side out there and not have to change for the CL or big 4 games! Now, was this the old man’s plan all along or has this been discovered by accident and is this his final present to us before hanging up his cane once and for all?
unfortunately i must spread, but great post ds. i need to re-read it and think about the new rossi role that was proposed a little more oh and it's fantastista my friend, but who cares, no need for me to be a pedantic a-hole, right
Maybe best not actually. I had a dream that Chelsea played Watford in the cup final and won 9-0. But moving on ...
Very interesting. I agree this would be good for Rossi. It is also good for the Heinze/Evra combination. Heinze is absolutely terrible at crossing the ball but decent at the short possession passing that would be required out of him in this system. This system also allows better use of the offensive game that Evra has.
I'd actually have to agree with you - I only really got into Utd starting around 2001 - and the best football they played before this year was in 2003. That year I TRULY fell for the club because of the style and verve they played with. It was much as you describe, everyone moving, everyone passing, and they never stopped. Some of the attacking football Utd have played this year has been simply amazing - the 2nd half of the blackburn match being a prime example.
Hmm well seeing as I officially wrote the bit about Rossi for Giggs in the strikers thread an entire minute before you, I think I'm going to have to take credit for that if it plays out .... but you didn't do so bad yourself DS
I think SAF intentionally planned this kind of strategy for Roma game for obvious reasons and, in Watford game the plan originally was to play 4-3-3 with Ronaldo playing deep on the right side of the midfield set of "3", switching to diamond shape with Giggs on top while defending. The plan lasted right up until the moment Watford scored, after which Ronaldo went to the left and started playing normal more attacking role with players switching on our right wing. So no, I don't think it was a plan all along - it was a plan specifically for Roma game and since it worked so well SAF has every right to exploit it.
No, we must stick to a straight-up 4-4-2. That is all. Nah, even I like like the look of that but always thought that if we were to sign Hargreaves it would signal the start of the end for Scholes with him eventually being phased out and Carrick given a slightly more advanced role. I don't think he'll ever be as effective at playing the 'Scholes role' as the ginger prince and wouldn't expect him to play it in the same way either, probably still playing slightly deep. Thought we'd then go out and purchase an absolute flyer on the left wing and do the vast majority of our attacking with the wingers and strikers who could pretty much move around as they wanted, taking up each others positions with great movement provided Hargreaves stayed at home most of the time and Carrick did some of the time. Your option looks good though and maybe we'll end up having the choice to do both? Got to admit that I wouldn't have really thought of putting Rossi in there and always saw him as an alternative to Rooney and only a very occassional partner. Would be very interesting to see that put into practice. Rooney playing in his floaty role but nominally on one side or the other is something I've still got slight reservations about which probably stems from his initial stints out wide where he didn't seem to have much freedom to move off his flank, or maybe he did but just didn't understand how to or didn't quite grasp the role intended for him and he's now 'getting it' more , I dunno. Great post though.
The only question I have is this: Can we oppress the toy team with this? United is really a joy to watch right now, more than usual, that is. I said they were coasting against Watford and someone told me that what appears to be coasting is just a team playing at a very high level with great comfort and familiarity with each other. They are so on right now that it looks easy. (Needless to say, this poster is an annoying know-it-all, but he could be right.) I drool at the thought of Torres here. Given the brief that he'd have, I wouldn't mind Hargreaves. If this is what Fergie is up to then it is awe-inspiring.
Don't know if it's his plan but I like your thinking. When Hargreaves arrives I do think we'll see 4-3-3 quite a bit but switching to 4-4-2 and the formation above should prove no problem. Any formation where we see Guiseppe is a good for me!
I don't think I've ever seen a formation from SAF that we used in the beginning of Watford game. At least not this season.
Can we oppress the toy team with this? (Get over your hurt feelings. Maybe I wasn't even talking about you.)
Thanks for the thread DS. I enjoyed this immensely. However, I must take point with one small detail I feel you have overlooked. I feel like you have glossed over one key factor to Giggs success in this role recently. That being his 15+ years of experience. That man knows both CL and EPL tactics, and team nuances as well as any coach out there. Obviously because he has had so much exposure. I feel it is his head that tells him precisely when to make those runs and passes, as opposed to any physical ability. Not that I question his passing, he is class, but he is no fantastista as the Italians say. I think him playing there is more of a case of SAF trying to extend the on-field influence of a legend. (for valid reasons I add). In some ways this reminds me of the Keane experiment in 03, just way more effective. I actually love the system we use right now, and wouldn't want to change, but I guess my main point is this.... Does Rossi have knowledge enough to play this role? Granted it may take him at least 2 year to learn it, but can we afford that learning curve with such high expectations at OT? I mean, the role is absolutely crucial to the system success, and Rossi would be learning a new role, a new system (it is vastly diff. from the reserves) and new team mates? Just looking for your thoughts.... But great post nonetheless!
Excellent post, as usual, DS. The bit about Rossi's potential new role got me thinking. Could David Jones have played in this position as well? He has experience on the left wing, I think most of us know what he can do in the center, he certainly has excellent passing ability and he can shoot from this range. What Rossi has that pips him for the spot over Jones is the burst acceleration that you mentioned. As excellent as Jones is, he's far from being an incredible athlete. Still, I think that his intelligence would have made him a very effective player from this position, even if he lacks the pace to beat some of the more athletic DM and DCM players in the top level. As for the stuff about the "runner", namely Fletcher or that Canadian English fellow, what about Darron Gibson? Obviously, he's not on pace with a Rossi or an Evans yet, but he shows - at times - the ability to effectively play as a box to box player without sacrificing his talent. I have high hopes for Gibson, and I think that if this "formation" or "organized chaos" is going to pan out for more than just one or two seasons, then we may see Gibson, Fletcher and Hargreaves competing for this spot, or possibly one of Gibson and Fletch being shipped off. On to another piece, this one about a CB pushing up to play as a DM while our attack gets flowing, and to slow down opposition counterattacks long enough for our players to get back. 99% of the time, this is Rio's duty. Looking at the earlier two sections of my post, I think most of you can gather what I'm about to look into. That's right, we have not one, but TWO young center backs who are comfortable on the ball, and can make things happen both offensively and defensively due to their calm and collected style of play, mixed with technical ability way above that of most center backs. Evans and Pique, the latter of whom may end up staying in Spain, are both potential candidates to take over for Jar Jar Binks (sorry Carlos, this is Rio's nickname, according to Wikipedia ) when he begins to fizzle. Of course, this is at least three, likely even more, years down the line. So where does that leave us with our center backs? Rio and Vidic are solid, very, very solid. Neither are likely to go anywhere for a long time. How do we keep Evans, and to a lesser extent, Pique, happy in the meantime? Or will Evans actually TAKE the spot away from one of them? If he takes Vidic's spot, meaning Rio and Evans at the back, do we have the toughness to be as solid as we have been this year, or is a smooth-rough combination a necessity? Well, whatever happens, it seems like our future is in good hands, even beyond the (*cries*) Fergie era. After all, Keano will be here by then.
I'd been thinking along the same lines too. Was wondering about posting on it in the strikers thread and I come on here to find both you and Seeing Red have done it. Not that I'd have written on it as expansively or well as you anyway. Anyway, really really great read.
Good thread... while we have been playing somewhat like this for a while now, somebody needed to put it into words. I am knackered at the moment so I won't go into too much detail, but something that just came up in the 'Fergie Cull' thread that had completely left my mind for whatever reason is (because I don't think Torres is affordable if we go for a ballwinning/runner CM, which will be pricey in itself) Darren Bent. If Charlton go down, it could actually also be financially viable to get both him and that ballwinning/runner CM without selling Saha. This would be handy as while Saha is a little more dynamic and effective in the air than Bent imo, Darren is more efficient in front of goal and still very similar to Louis. This would give us good depth up front while allowing Rossi to both get used to the 'Giggs' position and spell Rooney, without us suffering from any loss of depth and without any of our strikers having to spend too much time on the bench. LW/playmaker: Giggs, Rossi, Park SS: Rooney, Rossi, Smith CF: Saha/Bent, Smith The fact that Rossi will be getting plenty of time in Giggs' role (as he will turn 34!! next season) will mean that Smith will be able to chip in spelling Rooney more than #3 in the pecking order usually would, and Saha is very likely to pick up injuries through the season, which would also give him time as the #9. He would also probably start against some teams ahead of Saha or Bent regardless of fitness due to that more 'stuck in' way in which he plays. While Bent would be cheap and is proven in the Premiership, he has yet to play under the type of pressure he would face here. Given that he should be quite affordable in comparison to Torres (it would be great to have him, but perhaps unrealistically pricey alongside that CM). Therefore while he will be given the chance to become the new #9 and at a good price (especially if Charlton go down), Saha will be the 'insurance policy' in case he struggles to find his feet or doesn't cut it at the peak of the mountain. Conversely, he would also be an insurance policy for Mr. Glass. Solskjaer if he doesn't retire could still make the occasional cameo too (at his age and with his injury record, his regular playing career is over at any competitive level). If all goes well and Bent impresses, then we can give thought to selling Saha next summer along with Ole retiring (if he doesn't this year), and possibly promoting a youngster (Campbell/Brandy) if they prove their wares to be worth a shot, or buying a CF if not. I am just quite iffy about signing Torres for so much money as despite his physical attributes he could easily do a La Liga player flop in the Premiership, especially as it would mean selling Saha. No Saha + a flopped Torres would throw a right spanner in the works... Bent I like the sound of though (again... especially if Charlton go down).
TORRES IS GOING NOWHERE. He clearly said it today. and i wouldnt want him to come anyway b/c that would harm Rossi's chances and he would cost a lot of money.
The presence of Torres would not affect Rossi at all. As for the question about CBs, I'd love to see and Ferdinand/Evans pairing. What we may lack in cynicism we would make up for with versatility. I'm drooling at the thought.