Building the 2007 roster

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by Soccer Doc, Jan 23, 2007.

  1. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  2. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Keep in mind the allocation money is not the same as transfer money.
     
  3. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So, you're saying the trade in which Chivas USA picked up Amado Guevara was a zero sum game, and didn't improve them at all?

    Columbus would have been better off drafting some kid out of college without a lick of professional experiences than taking the sure thing in Andy Herron? Kansas City would have been better off with Bo Oshoniyi and a draft pick than with Kevin Hartman? Real Salt Lake better off with Jay Nolly than Freddy Adu? Sorry, Doc... but these don't strike me as zero sum transactions.

    Let me ask you another question... what team makes a trade thinking "well, this really won't help us, but we'll do it anyway?"
     
  4. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe you misread what he said. It was zero-sum for the game. Recycling talent is basically what happens with trades. Freddy is still Freddy, whether he's playing in DC or in Salt Lake.

    LA bringing in Beckham changes the game in the US. So far, LA and NY have been the only teams to have done this. Colorado is expected to make an annoucement tomorrow. Other then that, 10 other teams have done nothing.
     
  5. Ultra Peanut

    Ultra Peanut New Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    Achewood
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Further, the intraleague trades mentioned are ones that wouldn't necessarily be improvements over existing Revs stock, especially if we had to lose someone (and not allocation/draft picks) to get 'em. Guevara and Herron are punks. Hartman would be really really really funny as Reis's backup but that's about it. Adu, maybe, given that his birthday this year means he's hitting the point of put up or shut up for the hype machine. O'Brien, I'll give you; I think he could've found a comfy home here. Vanney, I dunno. Herc and Ugo had great years in 05 and underperformed in 06. Esky, well, you've gotta be ********ing kidding me.

    And again, this all assumes that the transactions made were available and open to NE, which may or may not be the case.
     
  6. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with everything you said.

    Regarding O'Brien, the only way I'd get him if I was in control of the Revs would be draft picks, allocations, combined with a bench warmer.
     
  7. Ultra Peanut

    Ultra Peanut New Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    Achewood
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just can't bring myself to lose sleep over other teams trading players we could play forever without. Besides O'Brien, I'll admit that I think we could've made a play for Quaranta last year, but that, again, presumes the trade was available to us. I understand not every player is necessarily available to every team with draft/allocation/Kiwi spacefillers to spare.
     
  8. JMMUSA8

    JMMUSA8 New Member

    Nov 3, 2001
    Webster
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly, I think we have too much to give in order to get the same in return, and getting allocations and draft picks don't do us much good unless we are trading allocations for draft picks.

    I mean who would you give up for Quaranta and who would DC take for Quaranta?

    I can't imagine DC taking anything less then a Andy Dorman, Pat Noonan, or a James Riley + others. For me thats too much.
     
  9. Ultra Peanut

    Ultra Peanut New Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    Achewood
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes. Although my theory on Riley has always been that he's the sort of good, solid guy who gets traded frequently in his career; I wouldn't be too shocked to see him offered up if someone very interesting and useful came available. And again, I don't think it's stressed enough that player trades aren't always open to everyone in the league, that it may not be a case of NE not making a bid so much as there never being something on which to bid in the first place.

    As for DPs, the year's still young for those, and maybe not Beckham or Reyna, but I'd just about guarantee that one team will take a DP who turns out to be a destabilizing dud. Decent performance overseas doesn't necessarily ensure the player's going to be hip to the various idiosyncrasies of MLS--e.g. Djorkaeff really getting into it for the first year, but then losing heart upon realizing how much of a cluster******** things are at the Meadowlands. I'm sure a lot of 'em will get some good value for their teams, but I'm also sure someone will be a lemon.

    Same as it ever was: Certainly, there are places we could put new players, but to make transactions for the sake of getting the team name in the transaction list benefits nobody. The offer's gotta be made for the right guy for us, and, with the possible exception of O'Brien, I'm not seeing a lot of the right guy for us in the recent transaction list.
     
  10. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand exactly what he's saying. It's just irrelevant.

    If I'm Steve Nicol, and Dallas offers to send me Ronnie O'Brien for a 4th round Supplemental Draft pick, do I turn it down because it doesn't improve the quality of the league? No, I take it in a heartbeat because it improves MY TEAM.

    Look at the Herron trade. Columbus improved themselves because instead of no good forwards, they now have one. Does the deal hurt Chicago? Probably. Does Columbus care that it hurts Chicago? Hell no.

    Except for RSL and DCU, who have signed international forwards. Except for them, right?

    I don't necessarily disagree with this. But the point that Doc made, more or less, was that other teams in the league were kind of treading water, and no one was really getting any better.

    To varying degrees, Guevara, Herron, Adu, O'Brien, Vanney, Gomez, and Eskandarian all could have helped this Revs team. Whether it would have made sense for the Revs to acquire any of them is another matter.

    So, you wouldn't give up a starter for an MLS Best XI midfielder? It would take me less time to name the Revs starters I WOULDN'T trade straight up for O'Brien.

    I'm not exactly losing sleep over this, but at the same time, there have been a couple of players that have been dealt that I think would have looked good in Foxboro.

    DC United didn't get any bodies from LA for Quaranta, but they would have demanded an MLS All-Star (Dorman) or a USMNT pool player (Noonan) from the Revs? Huh? Now the Revs lack of activity is being defended on the theory that other MLS teams are asking for our stars in exchange for their bench-warmers? How do I even argue against that?

    Coming soon, the "We're so good no other team wants to trade with us because they don't want to take the risk that it will make us even stronger" theory.

    The problem here is that "the right guy" apparently hasn't been found in the last three years. The Revs are treading dangerously close to paralysis by analysis.
     
  11. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All trades. unless you can somehow "skunk" the other team are zero sum in that you have to give up something of value to get something of value. The fact that a team gets something they want and is willing to give up something they want less doesn't change the fact that it's a swap of value for value. Of course value is in the eye of the beholder. Does a team executing a trade feel they have improved their team---of course---but always at a price---ergo---zerp sum.

    Look I'm not against trades--never said I was. What I am is getting tired of the bitching over---"all the other teams are doing and we're not" stuff. Are their things that this team could do to improve the team? Sure. Are the coaching staff working to find players to improve the team? Of course. Is it time to panic? Hell NO
     
  12. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just to keep us all up to date here is the current status of each teams DP slots(s)

    ChivasUSA
    Traded to NYRedBull for five years (for Guevara)

    ColoradoRapids
    unused

    FCDallas
    unused (rumored to be Edgar Davids)
    Carlos Ruiz (Grandfathered for 2007)

    HoustonDynamo
    unused

    LosAngelesGalaxy
    David Beckham
    Landon Donovan (Grandfathered for 2007)

    RealSaltLake
    unused
    Freddy Adu(Grandfathered for 2007)

    ChicagoFire
    unused

    ColumbusCrew
    unused

    DCUnited
    unused

    KansasCityWizards
    unused
    Eddie Johnson (Grandfathered for 2007)

    NewEnglandRevolution
    unused

    NYRedBull
    1 - [native] - Claudio Reyna
    2 - [from ChivasUSA] - unused (rumored to be Ronaldo)

    TorontoFC
    unused
     
  13. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's great in theory, but in practice, most of these trades don't seem to be zero sum transactions.

    If teams didn't feel like they were getting more back than they were giving up, then they wouldn't make the trade.

    I wish there was some proof of this. They say they've been working to find players to improve the team for the last three years, but they haven't come up with much.

    At some point working hard without any results starts to get really, really old.
     
  14. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    The only problem with this point of view is that it doesn't conform to the WWCLD (what would Chicken Little do?) standard!

    It's easy to get all excited about the shuffling that other teams are doing - the same folks get worked up every year at this time. And what happens, we end up outlasting just about all of those teams.

    It's actually pretty rare that an MLS trade has a significant impact on performance of a team and it's also pretty rare that some new import is really something special.

    From my POV, it looks like Chivas and RSL have helped themselves, but they're not our main concern. I don't see NJ and DCU as being in great shape, with massive changes in players and coaches. And Chicago loses Jacqua and Herron, two pains in our butt, and gets older in important positions.

    And how to rate the value of stability and cohesion? While many of these other teams have to work on integrating new players, coaches, systems and styles, the Revs can start with where they left off and build from there. The history of MLS is pretty clear that stability and cohesion is the way to build a winner and teams that are constantly changing, reworking, rebuilding, etc. struggle year after year.
     
  15. Imad Ashell

    Imad Ashell Member

    Aug 21, 2006
    There are 2 fundamental questions: 1) have we improved our roster; and 2) have our main competitors improved theirs? The answer to first, as of now, is probably no, unless the draft picks turn out better than anyone has projected. The answer to the second, as of now, is probably yes, given the trades and signings. Red Bull, in particular, looks to be much better in 2007, especially given that Bruce, who's a helluva coach, will have been around longer.
     
  16. Chowda

    Chowda Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    How many teams have to use their's before it's unnacceptable for the Revs to fill their DP slot?

    The Revs are in a unique position where they just received money to spend on players (we don't know specific mandates, but the intent of Xfer fee money is to spend it to acquire new players). We also have the need for attacking players. The Revs should be taking the lead on this instead of taking a "wait and see" approach.

    We haven't won a championship with this core group of players and we never will without adding impactfullike (that word's for you, UP) players to our attack.

    One thing I do know: if we don't add quality attacking players before the season, we won't have a chance for the Supporters Sheild. It may not be important to some, but it is a trophy which is something we don't have.
     
  17. Chowda

    Chowda Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    They traded away the 2004 MVP who's in his prime to get a 33 year old injury prone internationally retired holding mid. I also think losing Youri and Henderson and gaining Shopp is a net loss.

    They may indeed be better if Wynne has been practicing how to dribble out of trouble in the defensive end instead of making wild, blind clears and Altidore reacts well to the added attention he will get being their new #1 striker. However, I don't think they traded their way to a better roster and the odds of their draftees contributing are much less given the amount and quality of picks they had.
     
  18. Autogolazo

    Autogolazo BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 19, 2000
    Bombay Beach, CA
    None of this excuses not even coming close to the salary cap last year.

    There was another $100K+ that could've been used to try to at least take a flier on somebody, roll the dice, make us better.

    If Columbus could scout an unknown like Ricardo Virtuoso, get him to play like he did at the end of the season, and now slot him in as a starter--saying that we can't find anybody in South America is just ridiculous. That extra change jingling in our pocket could've picked up somebody like him, only even better, IF Nicol was really looking and had the green light to spend it. Instead, we're passive until August, when Abundis' agent shops him to other MLS teams (Galaxy included), then Nicol says "yeah, OK". That's not proactive scouting, folks.

    And for those of you knocking Andy Herron, he played great when he wasn't injured last season. Calling him a "punk" is just homerism talking, again. I'd love to have him on our team considering the number of injury candidates we've got out there this year.

    It's now been strongly rumored that Nico Hernandez is walking away from MLS. He was the Rapids leading scorer last year. Why not try him?

    Talented guys like Ramon Nunez have been wasting away on the bench in Dallas. If he's not in Morrow's starting plans, he would be a terrific pickup.

    Even Jamil Walker as a third forward would be a huge improvement over Willie Sims at this point.

    Lazy, lousy excuses on both the scouting front and the unwillingness to spend up to the limit of the cap.
     
  19. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well said Autogolazo. One thing that struck me about Fernando Clavijo's office was that he had whiteboards all around his office with every team's roster, listed by position, who was a SI, domestic, etc. Every player was on his radar screen. I'm sure he had his own mental notes on who he rated, and certainly the Revs had salary info if it ever came to that. For all I know, Nicol/Mariner are also keenly aware of who is out there, but it doesn't seem like it based on what they have said in the past.

    Bottom line--there are certainly guys out there who might be able to use a change of scenery. I don't think "trades" by themselves are a zero-sum game. Take a "crap" player who has talent but is not effective in a certain system because he isn't on the same page as his teammates. Ariel Graziani was useless to us, or at least that's what our "brain" trust thought after a couple of games. Meanwhile, he went on to a pretty good career in Dull-ass. There must be guys who are being mis-used in the "wrong" system that we can get for a song.

    What Ultra Peanut says is correct, however. Not all deals are available to all teams. If team X calls up team Y and say, "OK, I'll give you a half allocation for Luther Blissett." Team Y won't typically call around to the rest of the league to see if they can get a full allocation for Blissett, they will jsut decide if they think it is worth it. Maybe make one call, but not offer him around. Case in point, when the MetroFilth picked up Todd Dunivant last year, I asked Steve Nicol if the Revs had considered him, since he seemed like a decent left-sided player. Now, he's even in the national team picture, and the Revs certainly could have afforded his $90,000 cap number. Nicol said that LA didn't "shop him around" but that he "wasn't at the top of [our] list" of players to try and obtain.

    My sense is that the Revs don't actively seek out trades. If they are in discussions with other teams of possible trades, guys like Steve Pastorino in Salty lake might be thinking of the Revs if he needs another painting of Brigham Young's wagon train to hang on his wall and is willing to give up his first round draft pick. Bus since the Revs are never seemingly in discussions about trades, Steve-o makes that offer to the Chicago @*&%$# Fire instead of us....
     
  20. Ultra Peanut

    Ultra Peanut New Member

    Jun 3, 2004
    Achewood
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not just that; it's that I also hear tell that players may have stipulations about which teams they'd go to if put up for grabs. It would not surprise me to learn, for example, that Adu was contractually unavailable to NE even if we did want him. I don't know that's the exact case, of course, but I understand such a stipulation may be another transaction variable fans wouldn't commonly consider when asking "why ain't we get that guy..."
     
  21. Jeff Bull

    Jeff Bull Member

    Portland Timbers (...and FC Cincinnati)
    France
    May 24, 2006
    Portland, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing to point out: trades actually aren't zero-sum, by definition or otherwise. Zero-sum isn't defined by paying a price to acquire something. The Wikipedia entry offers a helpful definition:

    "[Zero-sum games are] so named because when the total gains of the participants are added up, and the total losses are subtracted, they will sum to zero."

    The author of the post gives chess as an example, because it's game in which it's impossible for both players to win - i.e. one player wins, one loses.

    The world of trades contains infinitely more possibilities: while a zero-sum scenario CAN exist, more often than not, both teams benefit due to their respective needs; alternately, one team can benefit a little while the other benefits a little more, a little less, and so on. The possibilities are endless, really.

    Naturally, it's a rare trade that's a straight-up win/loss. And that's where the "cake analogy" from the same Wiki entry comes in handy:

    "Cutting a cake is zero- or constant-sum because taking a larger piece reduces the amount of cake available for others."

    Sorry to be anal. I just find these definitions significant:eek: .
     
  22. NateP

    NateP Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Plainfield, NH, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is another reason why contract terms need to start being made public. We should be able to find out what players make/count against the cap, or who has no trade clauses same as MLB, NFL, NBA etc.. fans.
     
  23. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Baseball in particular has the "5-10 rule" where a player who has been in the majors for 10 years and the last 5 with the same team can reject trades, but I don't think MLS has any such provision.

    My guess is that only certain "stars" would have these kinds of deals that they can't be traded to a city where there are more country music stations than alt-rock.... It wouldn't shock me if Adu was one of them, however. Then again, it is always a matter of asking them to waive that clause. In this case, Adu was OK with the trade because it meant playing for his old coach again, but most players have to play where they are told, and they damn well better like it!

    Even Tony Meola wasn't initially happy about being traded to Kansas City back in 1999, but he ended up liking it there a lot more than he thought he would. He prolly would have "rejected" that trade if he had the chance at the time.

    Going even further back, Chiquinho Conde thought it was a practical joke when he was told he had been traded to Tampa Bay from the Revs in 1997. It did not even occur to him that a player could change teams without the normal "transfer" method, and his agent had to point out the fine print in his contract. And he was an allocation near the maximum salary.
     
  24. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I thought I read that Lalas claimed the 2 partial allocations they got on draft day combined into a full allocation of $250K. I'll look for a link.

    Found it:
    link
     
  25. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another suggestion...

    Soccer America says that Eddie Lewis might be on his way back to MLS from Leeds United, possibly before the end of the transfer window.

    SA also says that Brad Davis is available.

    Young, quality, left-sided midfielder... why wouldn't the Revs be interested?
     

Share This Page