I find it strange that USL has used DEVELOPMENT League as a name and put in place rules to encourage the development of young talent U-23 but allows team to load the roster and GIVE THE MINUTES to 28+/- year old has beens who have no where to go. And in most cases if a college / pro prospect leaves the game with a injury from a un-called for late tackle it is from one of these 28 year old has been thugs. Last years PDL Champion is the best example ....Central Florida Kraze... example...from the PDL stats...the Kraze star thug 30 year old Philips-Wales has 6 fouls as a forward and their other 28+ year old guys have 3 fouls. The college kids getting minutes are carrying 1 foul each. It is a surprise that many college players do not want to spend the summer playing with these thugs. I understand the Kraze is coached by a not so successful high school coach..congratulations coach you won a championship and with 4 very good and talented 22 year old college players and a roster full of guys older than the coach. So where are the 18-23 year old development players getting minutes to develop in Central Florida. This makes the Kraze a failure not a champion. This club and other PDL load the roster with these older guys every year..I understand another Florida club Coco Expos are using an even older roster...I know Florida is a retirement state but this is PDL ...let these 35 year old has beens find a mens league and develop our U-23 guys.....I thought this is the point ...it is a development league ...what and who are you developing As with too many youth programs the emphasis is on winning and not developing players. USL needs to take a look at this problem and make PDL a true U-23 development league. Look at my CASL or Carolina Dynamos as an example of PDL clubs that are trying to use PDL as intended.
PREMIER Development League. Not PRO Development League. The vast majority of players in the PDL are U23 by rule. But not all. That's nature of the beast. 6 fouls? Oh, my God. What a hack. How can a guy like that not be in prison already?
This is not a problem. There are rules in place that require a team to have a certain number of U23 players. The teams are free to work within those rules any way they want. Some teams will be yonger; some will be older.
8 players over 23 who gets most of the minutes My point exactly....MLS, A league and PDL It is a progression MLS is not looking for a 30 year old plumber who left college 8 years ago and plays soccer in the summer with a local PDL team. The Cape Cod summer baseball league is not full of 30 year has beens ...they are developing young players with a chance to advance to the next level These 30 year old plumber are done ...find a mens league so the young talent can get the minutes
How can you develop young players without including some veterans to help benchmark the kids? The system will make much more sense when MLS has full reserve and youth programs... or at least I can dream.
Get you a dish and stop watching hockey The EPL no longer allows hacks in the league....soccer is a game of skill ...not late tackles from a 30 year old 200 pound plumber hacking a 20 year old 150 pound skilled player with a future and niether should the premier DEVELOPMENT league
Maybe I am wrong about the intent of the PDL and maybe no one agrees that it should be about the best high school and college age kids but like the poster said until we have a reserve system PDL is all we have for the summer to develop the young talent I thought it was a summer development and my point is the 30 yr old plumb is not going any where and not going to teach. I have heard several ACC players say they hate the PDL because if you beat the 30 yr old plumber with the ball at your feet look out for the broken leg the next time. The truth IMO is if you are using 30 yr old guys it is about winning not developing.
Then you pick a different club to play for. Chicago Fire Premier (formerly CFR) field a squad of virtually all U23's, are extremely competitive, and have had significant success in the MLS draft, by comparison to the Kraze. Some clubs are vastly better in this arena than others, so it pays for a player to excercise some due diligence before selecting a PDL side.
For Central Floridians, there's also Ajax Orlando in the area which is entirely younger people I think.
What is the age make up of your local PDL team??????????? CASL, Carolina, Chicago and Ajax Orlando seem to be using PDL as a true U-23 are there others?????
CASL, Let me try to clarify something in regards to the Kraze team makeup. Since I officiated several of their games last year including the final, I did some research on the players beforehand to understand what type of team I would be working with. The team last season had only four players on it that were not attending college (i.e. the over 23 group). After several games, one of these four, the goalkeeper left the team when he was replaced in the starting lineup by Ryan McIntosh, also the starter at UCF. Clifton Philip-W, who you mentioned in your first piece became a substitute midway through the season and did not even make an appearance in the championship. Thus to make this short, only two of the starting 11 and of the 14 players who played inthe championship game against Boulder were not college players: Villa Mullings, the star forward and Robert Gibbon, the captain and sweeper. I believe the Kraze is doing an excellent job of attempting to further the development of the college-age players in the Central Florida area. A look at this year's team roster will show that they have gotten even younger as several of their players are just now finishing high school and one of them has started both of the Kraze matches thus far.
Actually most of the teams in the Great Lakes Division play pretty close to the U23 limt for the majority of their players. Michigan even rosters former DC and KC MLS player Stephen Armstrong, who, although 26 or so, would clearly be a quality "veteran" addition to the squad.
In other words, casl, you're overreacting. If ChrisE was here, he could tell us how many PDL guys are overage. My guess is that it's fewer than you're being hysterical about.
Who cares what the MLS wants? USL Division1 (not A-League anymore) and PDL are not affiliated with the MLS, so who gives a crap what he MLS is looking for? Sounds like a lot of whining. Let players play where they want.
Reality is this...... These franchses struggle each season to survive. Come to the games, support your team and it won't be so difficult. How much development can occur if you lose your PDL franchise? Without wins, no one comes to watch. No gate = no sponsorship which then equates to no money. These teams aren't free to put up. The Menace have some older players as well, but without them they wouldn't have enjoyed the successes that have allowed them to not only stay around but also to develop an Academy system to allow players to develop. One of the above posts says basically who cares about the MLS and what they want. I agree wholeheartedly. Until they decide to go with a reserve/developmental side they are a totally different entity. Much like an analogy of an employee who goes through a training system to become a manager. The company doesn't care what thier competitors want in management, only about their own interests. For now, the USL isn't really there to compliment the MLS sides--they are there for thier own survival.
I'm no longer a big fan of them either, but I will admit last year's team did have way less veterans than other years. I mean c'mon Lou Chioffi and Marcos Machado 40+ year old GKs playing the PDL? Then you had the older guys that played for the Lions/Sundogs/Nighthawks like Riegler, Geltz, Lee, Mackeys, etc. that were along with the team for the first few years but didn't play for the Kraze last year. Cocoa has a rather large amount of older players this year.
I smell someone who was cut! Kraze, thanks for the flashback! Lou Cioffi is the man! Lou could probably still outplay most of the younger GKs down there. With him, you bring old-school NASL Atlanta Chief experience. Though most of his past experience in net for whatever incarnation of the Orlando team has been a favor. I know he filled in a couple times for the team when he was the GK coach and no one was available. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ...2004 half the minutes were to the over 24 year old and this is off the Kraze stats page for their 1st game in 2005 Name minutes played birthdate Wales 90 1975 Sargeant 80 1977 Steed 90 1981 Garrambone 68 1976 Amato 22 1978 Collins 58 1981 This is 6 players that are not college age and last year's team had a lot of over 23 year old players....the NAIA players are college but over 23 yrs old
CASL, Forgot about Sherwin Sargeant, but he did not even dress for the final game. Let me give you the official list of players submitted for the championship game. This is straight from my copy of the official USL Scoresheet used for the match. Central Florida starters: Ryan McIntosh, Robert Gibbon, Danny Robertson, Jonathan Hargis, Sean Steed, Justin Brandt, Eric Vasquez, Billy Judino, Sasha Barber, Justin Cook, and Villa Mullings. Eligible Substitutes: Tres Loch, Brian Malec, Tyler Stansberry, Xavier Delgado, Anthony Santiago, and Clifton Philip-W Of the subs, Loch, Malec, and Delgado played, all three are UCF or USF college players. Of the list of six players in your last response, I already knew of Philip but forgot to add Sargeant. However, before you label Sargeant as over the hill, know that he graduated from UCF where he played for the soccer team in 2002. That would make him but two years removed from college ball. Sean Steed was 23 last year during the season (1981 + 23 years = 2004 which was last season), not exactly an old fart. You cannot base your entire premise on one game which is what you are doing. What about the other games that were played during the regular season? What about the playoffs? The game you are using was one of the first games of the season. Collins, Garrambone, and Amato were not key players on this team. They were fringe players used when the regular players were not available. One of the reasons why PDL teams are allowed to have up to 30 players on their rosters is that many times certain players will not be available for parts of the season due to college commitments. If teams did not have other players to turn to many teams would not be able to field teams especially during the month of May. Look at the entire season and see who the starters were especially when playoff time came. The above list for the final is the Kraze team at its strongest. There are only two players who played in the final who were not of college age or in college at the time of the match.
FL ref is right on - use the entire season to make an argument, not one game. MANY teams must rely on their older players at the beginning of the season because their college players are still in school and not released by the coach to come play in PDL. Each team has its own philosophy regarding its role in PDL. Some teams are truly developmental and will only use U23's. Others, and that includes most teams in the NE, must rely on the older players to be competive. There is enough other "developmental soccer" that the teams do not have to rely on this. I know of several where it's win at all costs and screw developing the players....they will find the most talented players to win...period. CASL - you really are over-reacting. Please PM me if you'd like to know WHY I know about this stuff. BTW -- FL ref, WELCOME!!!!! Come join us in the Ref Forum.
FWIW. For college players interested in playing in MLS, PDL competition is an important piece of the puzzle; especially those players who aren't from "major" collegiate programs. Virtually every collegiate player drafted by MLS during the past 3 or so years has also been a PDL player. There simply isn't any other way for those players to get the additional 18-20+ games/season at a high enough level to make them professionally viable.
I did not intend to go after Kraze but PDL teams in general for not playing young talent. Although Kraze did beat one of my Carolina team in the playoffs last year on the way to their Championship. I have never seen Kraze play and was using the stats from their website so if I was wrong or stepped on toes....sorry but I strongly feel that every effort should be made to use the younger talent. maybe one day we will have the system under the pros like europe. someday
Man, does that bring back memories! He was about the only constant for the Chiefs back in 1980. They went through a ton of keepers that year, but he was the one they turned to when nobody else worked out. He was a real trooper.
CASL, Did not step on my toes, just giving you more information on points you brought up. As a referee, it takes a lot for me to get truly offended. Here is some more info based on development of players and sending them to higher levels. Of last year's Kraze starters, I know of three that are now at higher levels of soccer. Eric Vasquez was drafted by the Columbus Crew and signed to a developmental contract. He has been a regular starter on Crew reserve matches. Justin Cook was drafted by both the Chicago Fire and The Portland Timbers. I believe Justin would have stuck with the Fire as a developmental player, but he got injured and is still in rehabilitation. I am not sure how long he will be out. Jonathan Hargis received a tryout with the Minnesota Thunder who then signed him to a contract. He is on their active roster. Also, a couple of years ago, former Kraze player Sergei Raad was a member of the Calgary A-League team. That is not bad, placing four players on USL Division 1 or MLS teams within a couple of years. I think this has been a very good discussion in regards to the different approaches that are taken within the PDL. The five Florida teams show this diversity. Cocoa used to be known for its experienced teams. Until two years ago the team was still fully loaded with players that had played as high up as the A-League with the former Orlando Sundogs and Jacksonville Cyclones. Now they seem to be focusing on youth with several experienced older players to help the growth process. Bradenton is tied to IMG Academy and is basically their U-19 team. This team did win their division of the Dallas Cup so they are not your average youth team. Palm Beach usually is based on college players in their area but have never been strong. In fact, for their last game of last season, they only brought 11 players to Bradenton, the 11th being their coach, and he is far removed from being able to play at this level. Ajax is an interesting entity. Last year, they were a mix of top youth from the US 17s and college with several experienced veterans. This year they are basically a youth team. However, their youth is of a very high level signing four or five national youth team members, several Real Madrid youth players, amongst others. The only veteran I see on the team is the backup goalie, CJ Meert, who also is serving as a youth keeper coach within the organization. Also, Ajax is actively seeking to build a stadium in the Orlando area and add a USL Division 1 team to their model. The players on the PDL roster I would think would hopefully move to the next level within their program unless they go to the MLS. P.S. MutinyXgirl, has anyone ever told you you look like Gayle Sierens, Tampa's Channel 8 news anchor? I think anyways there is a striking resemblance.