The Doping Thread

[Dead Fingers]

Get your fill of epo, steroids and amphetamines here. :p

[aveslacker]

Reposting from the Spring Classics thread.


I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum when it comes to your view of having to dope to finish a three week tour. No question that it is a lot of time to spend on a bike let alone riding at such a high pace, but I've always maintained that the doping isn't being done to finish the race/s, but to finish faster.

Using the sport of high altitude mountaineering as a comparison, cycling is far less grueling and demanding. Most expeditions are the same length (three weeks) yet don't have the luxuries of chef's, support cars/teams, massage therapists, available doctors. They also spend considerable time in far more dangerous terrains/climates. Most importantly a top level mountaineer spends considerable time above 8000m which speeds up the bodies decomposition. In short the more time above 8000m the faster you shut down.

If you spend three weeks at altitude in far more dangerous conditions without dope then why would you need it to complete a three week race?

Whatever happened to the human spirit and it's dogged determination to succeed?

.....Moishe now steps off his soap-box.....

I generally agree with this thinking, but here's the thing: we have no idea whether or not the high-altitude mountaineers dope. It's not like there's a doping control at Everst base camp (or that anyone even bothers). And to be honest, I am pretty sure that there are some climbers who do use some kind of performance enhancers that would be illegal in a place like the Tour.

I worked with a guy who climbed in the .13s and knew a lot of the top climbers of the day. He said he was pretty sure some of them were on roids. Now, I'll grant you that this is 100% hearsay (and those were sport climbers/boulderers), but it makes a certain amount of sense. If you have guys in places like the Tour, where there are doping controls, still using it would make sense that some percentage of top-level climbers -- who participate in a sport where there are no doping controls -- using.

Quite frankly, if EPO or CERA helps you get out of the 8000m+ death zone quicker, it makes you safer. The longer you spend on a big mountain, the more likely you will be exposed to some objective hazard. So if a substance helps you get out of there quicker, there would be a strong incentive to use it.

Obviously using drugs doesn't compensate for a basic lack of mountaineering skills. If you aren't comfortable on steep, loose terrain climbing high over marginal gear in your double boots and crampons, then a hematocrit of 60% isn't going to help you one bit. Ditto if you don't understand how to move along a bergschrund or avoid an avalanche zone. But other things being equal, I can see there being a strong incentive for a skilled alpinist to use something like that, and I would be highly surprised if at least a few didn't. As far as I know it's never been addressed in the U.S. climbing media.

To be honest, I'm not sure whether I think this is right or wrong, particularly in the case of mountaineering.

[panicfc]

Exactly. As for whether the riders are using the drugs to go faster or survive - its faster, they want to win, make more money, and have a longer career.

What is sad is I have heard amateur, over 35 guys are also doping - to win trophies? Now that is exceptionally sad.

[aveslacker]

Exactly. As for whether the riders are using the drugs to go faster or survive - its faster, they want to win, make more money, and have a longer career.

What is sad is I have heard amateur, over 35 guys are also doping - to win trophies? Now that is exceptionally sad.
As I've said, I'm kind of ambivalent about doping in competitive sports, what with the potential for an unfair advantage and all that. If the rules prohibit doping, then anyone who dopes should be punished. When I got pulled over speeding once the cop asked me if I wanted to contest the ticket. I told him I didn't because I was speeding. I got caught, plain and simple.

As to whether or not doping should be prohibited, I honestly don't know what I think about this. On the one hand, you have people like Johan Neeskens argue that we're all dopers because we all use aspirin, caffeine or whatever. I don't really buy that because there are quantitative differences between aspiring and CERA. On the other hand, there is something to be said for preserving the purity of competition, regardless of whether or not people have cheated in the past.

I see both sides of the argument, although in my perfect world nobody would dope.

[Moishe]

I worked with a guy who climbed in the .13s and knew a lot of the top climbers of the day. He said he was pretty sure some of them were on roids. Now, I'll grant you that this is 100% hearsay (and those were sport climbers/boulderers), but it makes a certain amount of sense. If you have guys in places like the Tour, where there are doping controls, still using it would make sense that some percentage of top-level climbers -- who participate in a sport where there are no doping controls -- using.

Quite frankly, if EPO or CERA helps you get out of the 8000m+ death zone quicker, it makes you safer. The longer you spend on a big mountain, the more likely you will be exposed to some objective hazard. So if a substance helps you get out of there quicker, there would be a strong incentive to use it..

I suppose it would make sense for sport climbers and boulderers to use performance doping since their discipline does rely a lot on powerful moves. Alpine style climbing is more about endurance with considerably more exposure and natural hazard. At home in my office I've got shelves littered with mountaineering history books and amphetamine was mentioned around pre-war climbing but was generally dismissed for the obvious side effects. What was recurring was the use of weed and downers. The reasons given for there use was nausea and to help sleep. Clearly not performance enhancers at all but it would be interesting to see some stats on the subject.

What is sad is I have heard amateur, over 35 guys are also doping - to win trophies? Now that is exceptionally sad.

It happened withing the past six months to a USSF Masters racer and I believe he was about 40 years old. Some people have to much ego to fall back into riding bikes for fun again.

[cleansheetbsc]

Congratulations Tyler Hamilton on your upcoming lifetime ban:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?ref=sports

[aveslacker]

Congratulations Tyler Hamilton on your upcoming lifetime ban:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?ref=sports

Looks like he's admitted to this instance, acknowledged having what sounds like a rather severe case of clinical depression and retired from the sport.

I don't condone the doping, but I do feel for the guy when it comes to the depression. Hope he gets the help he needs.

Without doubt, he was a tough racer. He may have been doping during the 03 Giro, but finishing with a broken collarbone indicates a lot of fortitude imo.

[Moishe]

Congratulations Tyler Hamilton on your upcoming lifetime ban:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/sports/cycling/18cycle.html?ref=sports

What a damn shame as he was truly a talented cyclist. The depression does suck though and hopefully he works through it. I'll say that through the article I see Michael Ball of Rock Racing as less of a scumbag then I originally thought. For once a team owner does not turn his back on his rider but actually takes some of the blame for Tyler making a bad choice.

[panicfc]

Good luck Ty.


I must have missed when he got divorced. What was the story on that?

[Dead Fingers]

UCI Prepares to Prosecute First Biological Passport Cases

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2009/4/21/847003/uci-prepares-to-prosecute-first

-----

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/apr/21/drugs-cycling-giro-italia

[Dead Fingers]

Rebellin now under investigation.
http://www.velonews.com/article/91365/coni-confirms-rebellin-is-cera-suspect




They sure took their time with this.

[panicfc]

The Olympics were almost a year ago. Pretty weak if you ask me.

[Moishe]

Rebellin now under investigation.
http://www.velonews.com/article/91365/coni-confirms-rebellin-is-cera-suspect




They sure took their time with this.

The Olympics were almost a year ago. Pretty weak if you ask me.

Honestly are either of you surprised at the continuous failings of the system. The Olympics as you said were nearly a year ago and they are just now finding something?:confused: As I've said before and I'll say again, if you throw enough crap at the wall, sooner or later something is bound to stick.

[Dead Fingers]

Honestly are either of you surprised at the continuous failings of the system. The Olympics as you said were nearly a year ago and they are just now finding something?:confused: As I've said before and I'll say again, if you throw enough crap at the wall, sooner or later something is bound to stick.

Oh, I agree, their consistency is for shit. I am sure there are still dopers in the peloton, but their methods scream Banana Republic.

Phil L. even was rather disappointed in the IOC
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr29news2

"I've no sympathy for the guilty but we were promised results in January and what angers me is that only the cyclist's name has come out," he said. "Cycling seems to be the easy sport to kick around. Of course there were some very questionable performances at the Olympics, from a lot of sports.

"It's up to the IOC to come out and name names but once again it's one rule for cycling and one rule for everyone else," he added. "If the news on this rider is correct, then it calls into question all of his results from the last year and it raises the question whether they're still testing for CERA. Cycling pays for its honesty."

[Moishe]

Oh, I agree, their consistency is for shit. I am sure there are still dopers in the peloton, but their methods scream Banana Republic.

Phil L. even was rather disappointed in the IOC
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/apr09/apr29news2

"I've no sympathy for the guilty but we were promised results in January and what angers me is that only the cyclist's name has come out," he said. "Cycling seems to be the easy sport to kick around. Of course there were some very questionable performances at the Olympics, from a lot of sports.

"It's up to the IOC to come out and name names but once again it's one rule for cycling and one rule for everyone else," he added. "If the news on this rider is correct, then it calls into question all of his results from the last year and it raises the question whether they're still testing for CERA. Cycling pays for its honesty."

I touched on some of what Phil stated in the Classic's thread and must reiterate I completely agree with what he is saying. The process is a joke and the organizations an even bigger joke. How can we take them seriously when they can't even sort themselves out?

[Dead Fingers]

Not again, Boonen.
http://www.velonews.com/article/91791/boonen-reportedly-tests-positive-for-cocaine-for-the-second

[panicfc]

Not again, Boonen.
http://www.velonews.com/article/91791/boonen-reportedly-tests-positive-for-cocaine-for-the-second

What an idiot.

Hes out of my list of favorite riders now.

OUT!

[Dead Fingers]

What an idiot.

Hes out of my list of favorite riders now.

OUT!

You know, I never liked the guy. I find him such a smug bastard, but, with the coke, there is probably some addiction problems. I do hope he can come to terms with it.

[panicfc]

You know, I never liked the guy. I find him such a smug bastard, but, with the coke, there is probably some addiction problems. I do hope he can come to terms with it.

probably is an addition issue. Hopefully he can take care of that, but I think a few months in prison is what he is facing.

[Moishe]

but I think a few months in prison is what he is facing.

For use? That seems a bit harsh especially for Europe in fact that sounds awfully American. I never understood riders like Pantani, now Boonen with the coke and Ulrich with the extasy wanting an upper of sorts when not competing. I would figure that spending that much time with your heart rate increased to such high levels that you would not seek something more mellow. Good luck to Boonen in that I hopes he takes care of what could really be a bad problem.