Donovan needs to leave.

[lplaksina]

landon is a mercedes in a race with a bunch of hundyais here in mls. in sports a good player will always be dragged down by inferior players with the possible exception of jordan
he needs to get his butt where the calibre is highest.

[DAKCrew]

Originally posted by appooOnU


Have you ever played sports? A coach should show some faith in a player. And you don't do that by benching him. There isn't room for fear in the sports world. And getting benched for making a bad play will definatly lead to that. You end up with a player who is only a shadow of his former self. If he consistently makes those same mistakes, then you can consider a benching

Yes, I've played soccer all my life and would have went to play in the Gothia Cup if I didn't blow out my knee a couple of days before we were to leave for europe. I coach should show faith in a player yes but when there is someone on the bench that can do better you need to set the starter and give the better player thier shot. I guess I need to find a coach in europe that has faith in me so I can start in the EPL. I'm putting in my 2 week notice right now. One more thing.......... Ask BA how hw feels about showing "faith" in Agoos in the WC. So I think the question is have you ever played and been benched b/c someone could do better? When your setting on that bench you realize you need to raise your level of play to win back your starting place.

[DAKCrew]

Originally posted by BenReilly


My point is that you don't get a better player (or employee) by creating extreme job insecurity. Of course, the other extreme can produce bad results as well, but benching a player for one or two bad games is just plain idiotic.

Are you a coach?

[nobody]

I'm a big Landon fan, but I've yet to see him dominate consistiently in MLS, so I don't really think he's proven himself too good for the league. If he's not motivated enough to push game in and game out, then he's got a big problem that he's going to need to overcome if he wants to play in Europe someday.

Really, I think this sort of thing is a great illustration of how playing in MLS and the US team is vastly different from playing for a big club in Europe, and the structure of MLS and soccer in the US may have a lot to do with it.

In Europe, there is much emphasis on the league championship, which is not won in a short-term play-off. To win the championship in Euro leagues, a team has to play at a high level game in game out. The top team over the course of a hard fought season is champion. If a player fails to perform every time out, he can be a great handicap to a top team. Even tournaments like the Champion's League feature a fairly long campaign that requires consistent effort over a long period of time.

In MLS, you play a mostly meaningless season, where almost all of the teams qualify for a short tournament to crown the champion. A player can slack off for periods throughout the season with little consequense to his team. A guy can play some pretty mediocre soccer in most MLS games, get up for the playoff and, if he plays for the US, get up for national team games and still be a star. He won't face tons of competetion for a realitively safe league spot, and as long as he raises his game in short bursts he can remain a top player for the national team.

I'm not necessarily saying one way is better than another. We just do things differently over here. Heck, we even emphasize tournament play over league play in most of our club teams for kids growing up. Some players are going to have an outlook that lets them adjust more easily than others. Some are going to have a rough go of it. It looks like for a guy with Landon's mindset, adjusting to a constant struggle may be a difficult jump.

The benefit is that our guys grow up used to raising their game for a big occasion and performing well in bursts, which could bode well for future World Cups.

[Ringo]

Isn't there some sort of prize Delta Blues gets for starting the 1,000th thread on Donovan needing to leave?
Perhaps some more suggestions for threads:
* Move San Jose!
* Why is Mexico ranked higher than the U.S.?

For me, the bottom line is this: Donovan is better off in MLS right now because he's happy here. He's 20 years old. What happens if he goes over to Germany now and it destroys his love for the game because he's so miserable (which isn't that unreasonable of an outcome)?
Let him play in MLS while he develops as a professional and grows up (that's not a jab at Landon ... he's 20. how mature and ready for the world were we at 20?) Once he gets all of that together, he'll be a much better player and much better prepared to go off to Europe.
Until he's ready to go, cut him some slack.

Also, another question: What's so bad about keeping the best American players in America? I go to as many Quakes games as I can and when I spend my $50 for my wife and I to go, I want to see the best American players. If it's Chicago in town, I want Beasley, Wolff, Armas, et al out there on the field. When I turn on Soccer Saturday's on ESPN2, I want to see Donovan, McBride, Mathis, Pope ... all of them. Having them in Europe does nothing for me as an MLS fan.

[lasoccervegas2002]

Originally posted by lplaksina
landon is a mercedes in a race with a bunch of hundyais here in mls. in sports a good player will always be dragged down by inferior players with the possible exception of jordan
he needs to get his butt where the calibre is highest.

His car is BMW so, he is a BMW's machine !

[DAKCrew]

Originally posted by Ringo1725
Isn't there some sort of prize Delta Blues gets for starting the 1,000th thread on Donovan needing to leave?
Perhaps some more suggestions for threads:
* Move San Jose!
* Why is Mexico ranked higher than the U.S.?

For me, the bottom line is this: Donovan is better off in MLS right now because he's happy here. He's 20 years old. What happens if he goes over to Germany now and it destroys his love for the game because he's so miserable (which isn't that unreasonable of an outcome)?
Let him play in MLS while he develops as a professional and grows up (that's not a jab at Landon ... he's 20. how mature and ready for the world were we at 20?) Once he gets all of that together, he'll be a much better player and much better prepared to go off to Europe.

Then you need Fox Sports World
Until he's ready to go, cut him some slack.

Also, another question: What's so bad about keeping the best American players in America? I go to as many Quakes games as I can and when I spend my $50 for my wife and I to go, I want to see the best American players. If it's Chicago in town, I want Beasley, Wolff, Armas, et al out there on the field. When I turn on Soccer Saturday's on ESPN2, I want to see Donovan, McBride, Mathis, Pope ... all of them. Having them in Europe does nothing for me as an MLS fan.

[BallStateMiddie]

Originally posted by The Wanderer

Have an off game over there and you're subbed and spend some time on the bench thinking about it. I think that's what he's trying to avoid, isn't it? I agree, though. He should definitely be the next Kirovsky. There's a high standard to aspire to.

DAK, don't be such a tool. You assume Arena made the wrong decision with Agoos? Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe if he'd benched Goose, we coulda made it to the Final, right? Or, maybe if he benched Goose, the other guys wouldn't have had the confidence they had, knowing that Arena wasn't going to bench them if they screwed up.

And yes, I am a coach and a player, both at the college level for two different schools, one Div 1, one NAIA (like Div 2.) Not to say that this makes me an expert, but almost making it to the Gothia Cup does not an analyst make.

[DAKCrew]

Originally posted by BallStateMiddie
I think that's what he's trying to avoid, isn't it? I agree, though. He should definitely be the next Kirovsky. There's a high standard to aspire to.

DAK, don't be such a tool. You assume Arena made the wrong decision with Agoos? Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe if he'd benched Goose, we coulda made it to the Final, right? Or, maybe if he benched Goose, the other guys wouldn't have had the confidence they had, knowing that Arena wasn't going to bench them if they screwed up.

And yes, I am a coach and a player, both at the college level for two different schools, one Div 1, one NAIA (like Div 2.) Not to say that this makes me an expert, but almost making it to the Gothia Cup does not an analyst make.


Why do I have to be a tool for stating my opinion? The way I grew up with soccer was if you were being out played by a person who could play better at that spot you make way for that person and then you work harder to try and improve at your game. Current example: John Busch is now starting as keeper for the Crew over Tom Presthus. Tommy started at the beginning of the year and is now sitting on the bench b/c John is playing better. Do you think this is wrong?

[FlashMan]

The one thing that's clear to me is that Golden Boy still has a lot to learn and/or improve at. Whether it's a better environment for him to do so in MLS - where he'll pay almost all the time - or in Europe - where he may be on the bench for long periods, I'm not sure.

[appoo]

Originally posted by DAKCrew


Yes, I've played soccer all my life and would have went to play in the Gothia Cup if I didn't blow out my knee a couple of days before we were to leave for europe. I coach should show faith in a player yes but when there is someone on the bench that can do better you need to set the starter and give the better player thier shot. I guess I need to find a coach in europe that has faith in me so I can start in the EPL. I'm putting in my 2 week notice right now. One more thing.......... Ask BA how hw feels about showing "faith" in Agoos in the WC. So I think the question is have you ever played and been benched b/c someone could do better? When your setting on that bench you realize you need to raise your level of play to win back your starting place.

I'm sorry if I insulted you in any fasion, and I repsect your credentials as someone who knows soccer and coaching. When I made my comment, I didn't realize you also had in mind a player on the bench who could actually out perform our starter. In that case, yes bench the kid because you have a better chance of winning. If that solid bench player is not there? then the starter knows your just punishing him for makign a mistake right? Then the question of fear starts creeping in again. As a coach, would you want your kids playing with fear?

[DAKCrew]

Originally posted by appooOnU


I'm sorry if I insulted you in any fasion, and I repsect your credentials as someone who knows soccer and coaching. When I made my comment, I didn't realize you also had in mind a player on the bench who could actually out perform our starter. In that case, yes bench the kid because you have a better chance of winning. If that solid bench player is not there? then the starter knows your just punishing him for makign a mistake right? Then the question of fear starts creeping in again. As a coach, would you want your kids playing with fear?


I think it just depends on the level of the player. I don't think that ruling a soccer team like Hitler is the correct method but I think at a certain level of a players career they need to be told that their play is lacking in areas as well as exceling. When looking at the pro level (In my opinion) you should sit a starter if that player does not play up to the standard the player has set forth by themselves. The coach and the front office needs to look out for the team as a whole and not baby the stars. Which I think is one problem with the MLS and Donovan will struggle with this if he goes to Europe. I've just learned through my footy days that when a coach babies players and let them play when they are not playing up to their best it hurts the team. I guess we just have a difference in opinion.

[BallStateMiddie]

Originally posted by DAKCrew



Why do I have to be a tool for stating my opinion? O.k., so "tool" might be overstating a bit. I get all puffed up when people keep bringing up BA and Agoos in these discussions. You never know how things would've turned out if he'd done things different, and as it is, they turned out pretty freakin well. When you say something like, Ask BA how hw feels about showing "faith" in Agoos in the WC.It implies you think he should have been benched sooner. In other words, a bad game and he's out. Is that how you want it, because you're singing two different tunes here. How many games did Presthus play before Busch took over? Andrulis didn't just yank him after one bad game, he saw that over time he wasn't performing. Obviously coaches can err on both sides. If you want an example of this, look at Keller for Spurs. He should've been starting long before he was, but IMHO benching Sullivan after one bad game would've been just as destructive to the morale of the team. You know, there're lots of coaches who would agree with you, and I actually played for one who took things too far my way in college, but it's just not my philosophy. Of course, I have the advantage of being right. ;)

[lachrymologist@46+2]

re:"Ask BA how hw feels about showing "faith" in Agoos in the WC"

Many other BSer's have agreed w/ this line of thinking, but for my money Arena had every reason to have faith in Goose. Most just remember his mistakes (some of which, at even my most apoligetic, I can't forget).

But Goose (flame-proof suit now on) had actually had a very good couple of years, was a big factor in the change of fortunes for both San Jose and DC, was the US's best defensive organizer, was in several pundits top 3 candidates for US player of the year (no research but JB springs to mind along w/several others I dont remember enough to be specific about), and for the most part played very well game in game out (remember you cant judge all a defender does by watching the tube).

For me, that makes it perfectly reasonable that the Bruce would expect this guy to turn it around and is justified by a lot of past performances to give him the chance to do so. Unfortunately, as can happen w/ this line of coaching, it didn't really work. So while Bruce had no choice but to bench him with the injury and all, I certainly feel that he would have done so anyway.
But to crucify him for giving a fairly important (organisationaly) and, contrary to most's opinion, reliable player w/ +100 caps a chance to redeem himself was not a terrible idea and one which many other coaches take far longer to decide (Turks and Suker).

[lachrymologist@46+2]

Originally posted by DAKCrew



Why do I have to be a tool for stating my opinion? The way I grew up with soccer was if you were being out played by a person who could play better at that spot you make way for that person and then you work harder to try and improve at your game. Current example: John Busch is now starting as keeper for the Crew over Tom Presthus. Tommy started at the beginning of the year and is now sitting on the bench b/c John is playing better. Do you think this is wrong?

DAKCrew,

While I wouldn't want to make any asses out of 'u' or 'me' I'd venture to guess that you are a younger guy not far removed from your playing days. I'd also guess that you've had limited coaching exp. at best.

I actually got into a very similar argument Fri. night w/ a friend of mine over whether college pointy-ball players should be benched for their appearance on the field (shirts tucked in, etc.)

Said friend went on a rant about how his father had played for the mythical Paul "Bear" Bryant and that the success of that era was built entirely on the strict totalitarian discipline enforced on all aspects of the player's lives.
Player misses a tackle? Bench him. Player drops a pass? Bench him. (EVEN) Player leaves jersey untucked for more than one down? You got it, bench him.

I'm all for having rules that have to be met, but asking guys to be committed and well behaved is a bit different than trying to create one's own fascist regime.

Now while it is fairly obvious that this friend had bought into the mythology of Univ. of Alabama legend and that these rules could never have realistically been fully applied (how many QB's would this take alone), I could not even begin to convince him that to expect an athlete not to deliver anything less than absolute perfection every single play is homicide to said players morale.

The fact of the matter is that this guy had never actually been responsible for leading a bunch of young men in any situation, much less organised sport and it showed. Sure the theory might seem appropriate when you're yelling obscenities from your lazy-boy, but to lead you have to have the respect of your followers and noone respects a domineering as@hole.

Drop a player every time he makes an error and watch his confidence plummit. Every coach will certainly address the mistakes, but an EFFECTIVE one will allow the player the opportunity to correct them, then its up to the player's own personal drive.
If a motivated player is allowed the time to correct his mistakes knowing that he has his coaches confidence, his own confidence (and w/ that, form) will soar and both will reap the benefits.

I guess it might seem possible that a policy requiring absolute adherance to strict rules and zero tolerance for player error could work, until you gather up a bunch of human beings and actually try it out.

Players might be "scared" into playing well for a short time but they will eventually turn on you because you have no concern for them, they are just expendable commodities who you feel can be easily replaced.

Just so I don't completely lose the point...
What benefits a player more, especially a 20yr old, homebody kid?
The approach that every game, the player must reprove himself worthy of the team and any slump in form will relegate him to the bench?
OR-
The approach that sends a player out confident that the coach chose him for a reason and that all he has to do is relax and play his best game knowing that he doesn't have to be afraid to make a mistake.

Well just ask Andy Cole, the most confidence-dependant player I have ever seen. Seriously, I mean it was like he was a frikkin self-worth junkie with a 40 a day "well done lad' habit.
Lit it up for the Ray Hudson-esque Keegan and his toon army, than suffered under the weight of a record transfer to Utd (the real one) until Yorke came in, befriended him, stoked his ego at every oppurtunity (I swear they might as well have done Smalley-esque "Daily Affirmation" celebrations that year. and no, i don't have a clue how you'd do one), and got him back playing like one of the most deadly English strikers again.

Confidence high? viciously lethal, even seen swaggering a bit. (entire 98/99 season)

Confidence low? nervously timid, head constantly down. Looked as if playing- and therefore having the possibility that he might not score, AGAIN- caused pain so severe you'd swear someone had put the infamous "Vinnie Jones & Gazza" grip on him.... Repeatedly. (West Ham 95, most of 95/96, and much of 96/97)

You tell me how benching Cole for every missed chance (there were a few;)) could have possibly made him find his lethal form again. Competition is one thing but if you don't let your players (especially the ones struggling) know you believe in them you're usually shooting yourself in the foot.

And wasn't LD's belief that Bayer Lev. wouldn't show enough confidence in his abilities (because he was an Amer. or whatever) one of his main reasons for coming here, and then staying, in the first place?

My honest advice would be to go find an u15 rec. team and get some practical exp. I think your eyes will open up a bit.

Sincerely
Patrick Tyner

P.S. As part of my new and infuriatingly off-topic "The More You Know" public service campaign:

***************IMPORTANT***************

THE FOLLOWING IS LONG AND OFF SUBJECT.
-Patrick Tyner holds no liability for any time lost reading the following
-While Mr Tyner feels it important to spread this information, and would be grateful if someone did the same for him, many may not agree.
-He assures us there is something interesting to be found, but only if your're interested in it.
-If you do proceed you do so at your own risk and with warning
-DO NOT FLAME HIM OR CALL HIM NAMES.

and to answer the inevitable question.....
no, he does not have any friends.
**************************************


For a good look at just what extreme forms of self-esteem can accomplish and a glimpse at the seemingly impossible amounts of hidden potential that can be tapped from unflinching confidence in the abilities of the self and of human free will (w/o having to listen to bald, bloated, pompous, egomaniacs such as Alistar Crowley or David Lee Roth) absorb Tool's instructionals "46+2", "Third Eye" (both AEnima), and "Lateralus" (Lateralus)
(and dig just a little beneath the surface)

Just spreading the good word so that others may reach into the shadow, pry open, ride the spirals, or at least tune into what will eventually be seen as one of the most unique and important musical groups of our generation.

Just as the Velvet Underground, Led Zep, Floyd/King Crimson, Kinks/MC5/Stooges/Ramones/ Clash, Nirvana, and Radiohead have already been recognised (and some, like My Bloody Valentine, Jeff Buckley, Helmet, and Pavement, sadly, never will be) so to will Tools time come.

Don't miss this golden oppurtunity for pure smug satisfaction when in twenty years time, YOUR kids will say,
"You saw The Strokes? oh, you mean those guys who just rehashed The Kinks and every Brit mod band cliche like Oasis did the Beatles?"

"You sang along, at a public event, in all seriousness w/ that whiney son of a bitch from Dashboard Confessional w/o going through an "experimental phase?"

"You pogoed to the harmless stylings of Jimmy Eat World and the pop disaster tour AND thought you were punk?"

-OR-

"You mean to tell me that you've actually seen Maynard, Adam, Danny, and Justin live in the flesh. You've actually confirmed, w/ your own eyes that they really do exist. I thought that they were like Floyd and were just a myth that noone really knew anything about. How else do you explain that neither band has had anyone else sound even remotely like them before or since. All the best bands were and are copied repeatedly; Zep, the Stones, Nirvana...."
"Dad, our garage band has tried for years to find a way to use their sound,but just like trying to play Floyd's style, you get found out immediately. Those guys were too perfect for each other and way too god d@mn talented. Anyone else sounds so obviously inferior at it that its not worth trying to reproduce. Its a sound that only those four guys (and Paul of course) could produce."
"You actually saw the screen from the Lateralus tour, and the Enochian boards, the sacred geometry on the drum kit?"
"Did the rain on that monsoon night in Birmingham- the rain that didn't stop flooding sideways for one minute, even during the opening act- did it really stop the second Maynard said 'watch the weather change' on 'Disposition?"
"I used to think you were a pathetic excuse of an old man who couldn't possibly understand what it meant to be interesting."
"But I now know Dad, that I will never be able to be as cool as you were because this combined with grampa seeing Zep shows my generations musical experiences to be nothing but empty, shallow, redundant, crap, trying to achieve some sort of sense of hollow importance by mimicing all the original emotion created long ago."
"Daddy, I will never disrespect you again for I now know that you are my greater and I will never live up to you. You are my new ideal of what I could someday hope to be."

For those about to flame the begeezus out of me, for taking away those precious minutes from your life.....
maybe, just maybe, the relationship you have w/ your future children will greatly benefit from the useless tripe you've just read.....Just say thank you



sorry about dragging you off course, but I feel it was my duty as a pretentious ass who enjoys reading his own words far too much.

[nobody]

I'd like Tool better if they came up with more than one song. I mean it's a good song and all, but maybe a little more variety wouldn't hurt.

[DAKCrew]

Wasn't Man Yoo winning the league when Cole was sitting on the bench? Yorke found himself sitting right with Cole also and now their both back starting matches with Blackburn. So good for them, but that's what you get with a team like Man U. If your not playing your best there will be someone there to replace you. That's just like Donovan with Bayer. As the level of the clubs raises the more chance this will happen, I think. I really don't think this type of coaching should be used when training the youth(except for personal attitude problems)what-so-ever.

BSM- I really hated using the Goos example but at the time I couldn't think of another example. With Tommy and Jonh Busch I think there might have been 1 to 2 games where Presthus was playing really bad and he took over, I think, not really sure.

So , my question to everyone (without being flogged by bamboo poles) is why baby these pro athletes and not try the players on the bench that have put in their time also?

[gideon02]

livorno wants donovan: http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2009/07/livorno-interested-in-donovan.html

[Arid_Torpor]

livorno wants donovan: http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2009/07/livorno-interested-in-donovan.html

Wow. Seven years. That's impressive, gideon.

[JeremyEritrea]

livorno wants donovan: http://www.soccerbyives.net/soccer_by_ives/2009/07/livorno-interested-in-donovan.html

Idiot.

Stop doing it.