Le Tour 2009 [R]

[Moishe]

That was meant more as a joking remark, apologies on my part, sarcasm does not travel well across the internet!

I was hoping so but you're pretty consistent in your opinion of Armstrong so I wasn't sure.....you are pretty militant after all in your view of the man:p:D

[KyleP]

Well that's the point about all this blame garbage. Tactics are tactics and teams have to defend their positions so why should anyone have had a finger pointed in the first place?



Actually before George was interviewed and results were official Phil and Paul had brought up Astana possibly costing George so it's not just Hincapie that feels that way. The way that the peloton governs itself, you'll always have teams in question defending themselves when the finger is pointed. This isn't the first time nor will it be the last time a cause and effect scenario happens in this race.

Well I don't have the pleasure of listening to Phil and Paul so all I saw was the Hincapie interview. I just truely dislike the way they criticize Garmin, calling their tactics bullshit, when they have no need to do it. It reminds me of play school banter. Hincapie isn't their rider so by effectively saying "I feel sooo sorry for you George, F**** you Garmin!" you're just rubbing your nose in business that doesn't concern you. The issue is not over Lance defending his team, it's that he critizises another for looking out for their own interests which were in no way harming the those of Astana.

[KyleP]

I was hoping so but you're pretty consistent in your opinion of Armstrong so I wasn't sure.....you are pretty militant after all in your view of the man:p:D

Well you're right there :D, I do dislike the man, especially over matters such as this, but at the same time I respect his abilities as a bike rider.

[Chesco United]

I thought Astana was just trying to keep the break from gaining a huge time advantage (one that they might have trouble getting back in the final week.) The Garmin thing is puzzling, unless they really didn't want a Columbia rider in yellow. I thought Columbia held off their sprint as long as possible. Not that it's likely to happen, but it would be brilliant if Hincapie got yellow tomorrow. Too bad that it has little chance of happening. (I'm presuming Nocentini loses the jersey tomorrow.)

[Moishe]

The issue is not over Lance defending his team, it's that he critizises another for looking out for their own interests which were in no way harming the those of Astana.

Actually I think both Johan and Lance were right in throwing criticism at Garmin. Vaughters mentioned he was trying to gain 15 seconds lost in a split for Wiggins but if you think about it their driving the group wasn't going to effect the standings at the end of the day. Because of the 3km rule even with them not up front Wiggin's the 15 seconds would never have been made up. Still different teams but what will the peloton see as right and wrong come tomorrow?

[Moishe]

(I'm presuming Nocentini loses the jersey tomorrow.)

I'd expect tomorrow to be an exciting day of attack after attack. Watch me be wrong but that's what I'm expecting.

[cr7torossi]

I'd expect tomorrow to be an exciting day of attack after attack. Watch me be wrong but that's what I'm expecting.

Or more like hoping :); expecting big things from Schleck and would be fun to see Evans attack ;)

[KyleP]

Actually I think both Johan and Lance were right in throwing criticism at Garmin. Vaughters mentioned he was trying to gain 15 seconds lost in a split for Wiggins but if you think about it their driving the group wasn't going to effect the standings at the end of the day. Because of the 3km rule even with them not up front Wiggin's the 15 seconds would never have been made up. Still different teams but what will the peloton see as right and wrong come tomorrow?

I think you may have misunderstood Vaughter's comments. I'm pretty sure what he meant was that after what happened in the stage a few days ago, with the split in the peleton and VandeVelde and Wiggins losing 15 seconds which were later given back by the connoisseurs, he didn't want a repeat of the incident and risk something like that happening again. Not sure I myself really understand the justification there as a split never really looked likely but every team has to look out for their own priorities.

[Moishe]

To me Evans is more of a mountain goat type climber, no acceleration but he will grind it out. Schleck is a more dangerous climber of the two with slightly better acceleration. It's the counter attacks that I feel will be more impressive.

[cr7torossi]

To me Evans is more of a mountain goat type climber, no acceleration but he will grind it out. Schleck is a more dangerous climber of the two with slightly better acceleration. It's the counter attacks that I feel will be more impressive.

I know which he is why I had a ;) for him. He will have to try to accelerate away for a change rather than just sitting on someone's wheels all the time which should be fun for us.

Schleck imo is the best pure climber in this year's tour though of course, Contador has the more powerful acceleration.

[Moishe]

I think you may have misunderstood Vaughter's comments. I'm pretty sure what he meant was that after what happened in the stage a few days ago, with the split in the peleton and VandeVelde and Wiggins losing 15 seconds which were later given back by the connoisseurs, he didn't want a repeat of the incident and risk something like that happening again. Not sure I myself really understand the justification there as a split never really looked likely but every team has to look out for their own priorities.

I know what Vaughter's said and it was bullshit. As you pointed out, no split existed and the lost minutes were given back so absolutely no reason existed to push that hard.

[Moishe]

I know which he is why I had a ;) for him. He will have to try to accelerate away for a change rather than just sitting on someone's wheels all the time which should be fun for us.

Schleck imo is the best pure climber in this year's tour though of course, Contador has the more powerful acceleration.

I missed the ;), my bad. Evans earlier in the race threw an attack that was pretty sad, it last all of what two minutes? As far as Schleck, he does suffer quite well and yes Contador's acceleration is awesome but I still think the rider with the best balance b/w acceleration and cadence is Lance. Not only can he burst off into and attack but the spin he has is amazing. It should be fun.

[Twenty26Six]

I immediately thought that Garmin was trying to screw Columbia.

For some reason, Phil Liggett seems to think Astana was at fault. But, I didn't see that over the last 10mi. I saw Ag2r and Garmin taking turns while Columbia tried to slow them down.

Towards the end, Columbia lost the final 5 seconds by trying to lead out Cav. Seriously, Cav needed to do his own work at that point.

I think people are pissed at what Astana did waaaay before the finish - which may have had a hand in it. However, I can't see why they could be criticized. If they had let the gap go beyond what it was, they would have been at risk.

[Twenty26Six]

Cavendish is moved to last for the final sprint for allegedly "blocking" Hushovd's line. (http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/81433/?tf=tdf_article_video.tpl)

This is a rough day for Columbia. But, this is a GREAT day for neutrals! The constant leap-frogging, politics, fighting amongst teams, and trashtalk is making this one exciting race! :)

[Twenty26Six]

The Top 26

Guys who might attack tomorrow in BOLD.

1 087 NOCENTINI, Rinaldo ITA ALM 58:13:52 00:00:00
2 074 HINCAPIE, George USA THR 58:13:57 00:00:05
3 021 CONTADOR, Alberto ESP AST 58:13:58 00:00:06
4 022 ARMSTRONG, Lance USA AST 58:14:00 00:00:08
5 106 LE MEVEL, Christophe FRA FDJ 58:14:35 00:00:43
6 058 WIGGINS, Bradley GBR GRM 58:14:38 00:00:46
7 023 KLÖDEN, Andréas GER AST 58:14:46 00:00:54
8 076 MARTIN, Tony GER THR 58:14:52 00:01:00
9 051 VANDE VELDE, Christian USA GRM 58:15:16 00:01:24
10 031 SCHLECK, Andy LUX SAX 58:15:41 00:01:49
11 095 NIBALI, Vincenzo ITA LIQ 58:15:46 00:01:54
12 118 SANCHEZ, Luis-Leon ESP GCE 58:16:08 00:02:16
13 077 MONFORT, Maxime BEL THR 58:16:13 00:02:21
14 036 SCHLECK, Frank LUX SAX 58:16:17 00:02:25
15 093 KREUZIGER, Roman CZE LIQ 58:16:32 00:02:40
16 081 EFIMKIN, Vladimir RUS ALM 58:16:37 00:02:45
17 001 SASTRE, Carlos ESP CTT 58:16:44 00:02:52
18 061 ASTARLOZA, Mikel ESP EUS 58:16:54 00:03:02
19 011 EVANS, Cadel AUS SIL 58:16:59 00:03:07
20 075 KIRCHEN, Kim LUX THR 58:17:08 00:03:16
21 161 KARPETS, Vladimir RUS KAT 58:17:41 00:03:49
22 174 FEILLU, Brice FRA AGR 58:17:48 00:03:56
23 101 CASAR, Sandy FRA FDJ 58:17:50 00:03:58
24 029 ZUBELDIA, Haimar ESP AST 58:18:06 00:04:14
25 027 POPOVYCH, Yaroslav UKR AST 58:18:12 00:04:20
26 181 GERDEMANN, Linus GER MRM 58:18:12 00:04:20

[Twenty26Six]

Anyone else get the feeling that Astana's "keep it close - until the last week" tactics might actually backfire on them if the field is too close after the next few stages?

[Twenty26Six]

Stage 15 - Time to separate the men from the boys with a day of rest to follow.

http://www.letour.fr/PHOTOS/TDF/2009/1500/PROFIL.gif

[cr7torossi]

I missed the ;), my bad. Evans earlier in the race threw an attack that was pretty sad, it last all of what two minutes? As far as Schleck, he does suffer quite well and yes Contador's acceleration is awesome but I still think the rider with the best balance b/w acceleration and cadence is Lance. Not only can he burst off into and attack but the spin he has is amazing. It should be fun.

Indeed; the question is how much of his old acceleration has Lance lost. I do expect him to attack on the Alps before the time trial (can't see him gaining time on Contador in the ITT) and Ventoux (given his struggles in the past). The weather here (cold and wet) should suit him too.

Anyone else get the feeling that Astana's "keep it close - until the last week" tactics might actually backfire on them if the field is too close after the next few stages?

No.

Outside of Cadel Evans, every one of the other GC contenders will lose time to all 3 of the remaining big 4 @ Astana in the ITT.

[KyleP]

Outside of Cadel Evans, every one of the other GC contenders will lose time to all 3 of the remaining big 4 @ Astana in the ITT.

Maybe not, it's more of a course for the climbers than a pure time trialist so guys like Sastre and Andy Schleck could do quite well. And it's big 3 at Astana now. ;)

As far as tomorrow goes, it's a day when the other GC riders will have to make their move if they want to make ground up on Astana, doubt anything major will happen though. Astana will most likely control things on the front and Contador will spring another attack in the last few ks. Hope I am wrong though, praying for an out of character Evans attack. :p

[Dead Fingers]

For some reason, Phil Liggett seems to think Astana was at fault. But, I didn't see that over the last 10mi. I saw Ag2r and Garmin taking turns while Columbia tried to slow them down.

Because he, like all of us saw Astana at the front for a bit. And remember, he said that stuff live. $10 after all the info came in, he probably changed his mind. Even Hincapie was throwing blame at Astana, not even mentioning Garmin, in his interview right after the race.


Now, I would have to get confirmation, but going from a LA tweet,

we pulled so hard? When we started it was 6:00. When we stopped it was 8:40. Those are the facts...


Towards the end, Columbia lost the final 5 seconds by trying to lead out Cav. Seriously, Cav needed to do his own work at that point.


When they came into the final meter or so and when Columbia took over at the front the pace did slow down, but maybe they should have started earlier? Seriously...they should have know the closer they get the faster the pace of the peloton would pick up and would have been much harder to disrupt. I agree with you and Kyle...they should have totally focused on disrupting all movement and should not have cared about Cav getting....a point. I am sure even Cav, could have cared less if he knew George would have been in yellow.

I think people are pissed at what Astana did waaaay before the finish - which may have had a hand in it. However, I can't see why they could be criticized. If they had let the gap go beyond what it was, they would have been at risk.

Well, I am seeing much more criticism of Garmin now. Even Garmin riders are a little bewildered at what happened. There is publicized tension between the two teams, but I think that tension is really between a few individuals, as there are quite a few friends between the two.

*sigh