Financial worries at Rangers?

[luciusmagister]

Let me preface this by stating that I’m biased and I don’t have a degree in economics. I noted on another thread that there have been numerous rumors about a financial meltdown at Rangers football club and I stated that I would post some links on this board.

Wiki is dubious but it states that:

“With debts at his holding company, Murray International Holdings Ltd (MIH), having reached GBP770m by Jan 2008, and the continuing deterioration of the UK property and steel markets, some analysts are questioning the viability of MIH as a going concern. In the middle of the worst credit crisis since the Great Depression, Murray needs to refinance or repay over GBP600m by Jan 2010. By the start of 2008, MIH was having to borrow money just to meet interest payments on its debt.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Murray_(Scottish_businessman)#Moving_on

Then there are headlines like:

Rangers' £20m debt squeeze
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/scottish/scottish_news/218758/Rangers-pound20m-debt-squeeze-David-Murray.html

Rangers chairman Murray's war of words with agent over list of stars up for sale
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1112442/Rangers-chairman-Murrays-war-words-agent-list-stars-sale.html

Boyd's availability raises serious questions about Rangers' financial health
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jan/09/rangers-scottishpremierleague

Murray planning player cull at Rangers after financial woes are revealed
http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Murray-planning-player-cull-at.5025433.jp

I don’t believe everything I see in the media but there does seem to be a lot of smoke surrounding Rangers financial health and maybe it is likely that there is fire as well. So is there anyone that is in the know about all of this?

[frasermc]

i'm not in the know but it's a fact that MIH and Rangers are closely linked. MIH has had big losses recently.

Moonbeams himself stated he has to sell at least one big player. Smith has talked about trimming the squad down by 6 or 7, i think. the numbers may be slightly wrong but it's around that.

Rangers FC asked non playing staff to consider voluntary redundancy.


i'm fairly sure the above are all factual statements. links and quotes could be provided. there does seem to be a financial issue at Rangers.

[Bluesfan]

The future structure of Scottish League Football has been debated to death and never really saw anything giving. This economy give Scotland a unique chance to revamp their league. But a few things are going to be accepted first.

First, a salary cap would need to be implemented. Sounds like Rangers could benefit from one right about now. Would make a much more competitive league and hopefully boost excitement. The side benefit is it just might feature more Scottish players instead of imports.

Obviously, the second thing to accept is that Scotland would a second tier league forever. Rangers and Celtic would not be able to dominate and would never seriously challenge in the Champions league again. But the league itself would be healthier from top to bottom and could grow together and lift the standard over time.

If the first two things are unacceptable, then more clubs are going to go bust and eventually The Old Firm will have no one to play. I know the other alternative has been to have Rangers and Celtic play in the English setup. I think the only way that should happen is if all the SPL/SFL clubs are merged into a now Brittish league system.

[Pedro's greasy do]

The future structure of Scottish League Football has been debated to death and never really saw anything giving. This economy give Scotland a unique chance to revamp their league. But a few things are going to be accepted first.

First, a salary cap would need to be implemented. Sounds like Rangers could benefit from one right about now. Would make a much more competitive league and hopefully boost excitement. The side benefit is it just might feature more Scottish players instead of imports.

Obviously, the second thing to accept is that Scotland would a second tier league forever. Rangers and Celtic would not be able to dominate and would never seriously challenge in the Champions league again. But the league itself would be healthier from top to bottom and could grow together and lift the standard over time.

If the first two things are unacceptable, then more clubs are going to go bust and eventually The Old Firm will have no one to play. I know the other alternative has been to have Rangers and Celtic play in the English setup. I think the only way that should happen is if all the SPL/SFL clubs are merged into a now Brittish league system.

Just a few things.

1. A salary cap will never be accepted!
2. Celtic and Rangers will always try to compete in Europe. We've been doing it for most of our existence. Hopefully the 6+5 rule will even things out again.
3. The English will never accept Rangers and Celtic. Can you see any team outside of Liverpool and Man U accepting them into the league? No chance.

[Pedro's greasy do]

Let’s see what happens in the summer with our finances. I'm sure wither we win the league or not will make a difference.

[Bluesfan]

Just a few things.

1. A salary cap will never be accepted!
2. Celtic and Rangers will always try to compete in Europe. We've been doing it for most of our existence. Hopefully the 6+5 rule will even things out again.
3. The English will never accept Rangers and Celtic. Can you see any team outside of Liverpool and Man U accepting them into the league? No chance.

Hey, I am just an American of Scottish descent who is on the outside looking in. I am not trying to bait you proud Old Firm supporters, just trying to make it so Scottish football could be relevant again.

A salary cap would be a hard sell. It would strengthen the league setup by ending the Old Firm domination, but, yes, would also end any Champions League dreams for Rangers and Celtic. But let me point out that they are just dreams, just like my dream of Hearts winning the League in my lifetime.

Don't be so sure that a British League is not possible. Scotland only has a dozen or so clubs to absorb into the setup and the rest could stay as they are and join the nonleague feeders to the Football League. The tricky part would be where those handful of clubs would enter in.

The Old Firm would end up in the Premiership and you can't be serious that the Premiership wouldn't want them in place of West Brom and Stoke or whoever else. The hard part would be clubs like Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, etc who would end up in the Championship or even League One. We would just need to turn to that famous Scottish pride to win immediate promotion and put ourselves where we want to be.

The Scottish cup competitions could be operated as they are (keeping a direct route to Europe even for the Old Firm).

If something isn't done then all of Scottish football (including you Glasgow boys) will just become increasingly irrelevant.

[Pedro's greasy do]

Hey, I am just an American of Scottish descent who is on the outside looking in. I am not trying to bait you proud Old Firm supporters, just trying to make it so Scottish football could be relevant again.

A salary cap would be a hard sell. It would strengthen the league setup by ending the Old Firm domination, but, yes, would also end any Champions League dreams for Rangers and Celtic. But let me point out that they are just dreams, just like my dream of Hearts winning the League in my lifetime.

Don't be so sure that a British League is not possible. Scotland only has a dozen or so clubs to absorb into the setup and the rest could stay as they are and join the nonleague feeders to the Football League. The tricky part would be where those handful of clubs would enter in.

The Old Firm would end up in the Premiership and you can't be serious that the Premiership wouldn't want them in place of West Brom and Stoke or whoever else. The hard part would be clubs like Hearts, Dundee, Motherwell, etc who would end up in the Championship or even League One. We would just need to turn to that famous Scottish pride to win immediate promotion and put ourselves where we want to be.

The Scottish cup competitions could be operated as they are (keeping a direct route to Europe even for the Old Firm).

If something isn't done then all of Scottish football (including you Glasgow boys) will just become increasingly irrelevant.

Oh I have plenty of thoughts on how to revive Scottish football. I've got a meeting coming up but maybe I'll put them down in a thread later.

[luciusmagister]

Oh I have plenty of thoughts on how to revive Scottish football. I've got a meeting coming up but maybe I'll put them down in a thread later.I wish you would.

[Parkhead_Faithful]

A salary cap would be a hard sell. It would strengthen the league setup by ending the Old Firm domination, but, yes, would also end any Champions League dreams for Rangers and Celtic. But let me point out that they are just dreams, just like my dream of Hearts winning the League in my lifetime.


No it wouldnt, it would force the best teams in the league to accept mediocrity thereby artificially making the league seem more competitive when all you have done in reality is castrate the naturally more successful teams.

The lack of any european runs due to this forced mediocrity would see the uefa coefficient for scotland slide making it harder for any scottish club to actually reach the lucrative group stages of the champions league no matter how many different teams win a league title in such a set up, even uefa cup spots would vanish, what ones we would get we'd probably have to qualify for. Advertising revenue would dry up due to a lack of european success and the lack of european prize money would hamstring the league even further. If the unthinkable happens and a team goes on a good european run all their players would vanish in the next transfer window as just about every other league in europe would be able to beat the salary cap.

Set it too high and the big clubs dont lose any advantage outwith the nation, set it too low you make yourself a feeder league for the english championship and scandinavia.

Making yourself a bubble in regards to european football is just asking someone else to pop it.

The only real way to make the league better is have a minimum of 16 teams playing each other twice with 2 relegated and 2 promoted and all TV revenues split equally, this would eliminate the overfamiliarity of teams and make games more one=offish. Only problem is the current chairmen of all SPL clubs, not just the old firm, would never vote for it as they would lose revenue from not having the old firm visit their ground twice a season.

[Parkhead_Faithful]

i'm not in the know but it's a fact that MIH and Rangers are closely linked. MIH has had big losses recently.


Pretty much one and the same, I remember a few years back he was accused of using some creative accounting regarding MIH to hide huge losses by the football club, think it was related to murray park construction costs if i remember rightly. Dodgy Daves finances are a house of cards at best.

[Bluesfan]

No it wouldnt, it would force the best teams in the league to accept mediocrity thereby artificially making the league seem more competitive when all you have done in reality is castrate the naturally more successful teams.

You mean the ones who spend themselve into debt or bank on European success to clobber their league rivals?

The lack of any european runs due to this forced mediocrity would see the uefa coefficient for scotland slide making it harder for any scottish club to actually reach the lucrative group stages of the champions league no matter how many different teams win a league title in such a set up, even uefa cup spots would vanish, what ones we would get we'd probably have to qualify for. Advertising revenue would dry up due to a lack of european success and the lack of european prize money would hamstring the league even further. If the unthinkable happens and a team goes on a good european run all their players would vanish in the next transfer window as just about every other league in europe would be able to beat the salary cap.

The only ones who give a flip about European football at this point is, CELTIC AND RANGERS! I am crossing my fingers and toes that Hearts captures that Europa league (or whatever it will be called) spot, but I know it is going to be a short run. Big deal. If it became available to all, the league would become better. More popular. Parity is a good thing. Unless you are the kings.

Set it too high and the big clubs dont lose any advantage outwith the nation, set it too low you make yourself a feeder league for the english championship and scandinavia.

Last time I checked the Scotland squad list, many of them ply their trade in the glorious Championship already (providing they aren't sitting the bench). What would be the difference? Rangers and Celtic's stockpile would be spread around the SPL a bit more evenly. Thats all. A few more would head to England, but maybe more would stay at home to play in a more competitive league, therefore making the whole league better.

The only real way to make the league better is have a minimum of 16 teams playing each other twice with 2 relegated and 2 promoted and all TV revenues split equally, this would eliminate the overfamiliarity of teams and make games more one=offish. Only problem is the current chairmen of all SPL clubs, not just the old firm, would never vote for it as they would lose revenue from not having the old firm visit their ground twice a season.

I agree with you that the current dependence on the Old Firm matches is at the core of the problem. Something has to give. Rangers and Celtic have to come down a peg and the rest of the league needs to suck it up and come up two or three. In the words of Rodney King "Can't we just all get along:D"

[frasermc]

You mean the ones who spend themselve into debt or bank on European success to clobber their league rivals?


we haven't spent ourselves into debt. the very opposite in fact. if you want to talk about a league that's riddled with debt then look no further than the EPL. nearly half the clubs are insolvent.

[Bluesfan]

we haven't spent ourselves into debt. the very opposite in fact. if you want to talk about a league that's riddled with debt then look no further than the EPL. nearly half the clubs are insolvent.

I had the Blue half of Glasgow in mind. Yes Celtic is probably one of the most sound in all of Britain if not Europe. But you are correct, if you look at much of Europe the top clubs all think they are the US government and can just spend their way to prosperity.

[Parkhead_Faithful]

You mean the ones who spend themselve into debt or bank on European success to clobber their league rivals?

I had the Blue half of Glasgow in mind. Yes Celtic is probably one of the most sound in all of Britain if not Europe.

Cancelled out your own point there bud, and celtic dont bank on the euro money to clobber the domestic rivals as they use it to clear debt mostly.

The only ones who give a flip about European football at this point is, CELTIC AND RANGERS! I am crossing my fingers and toes that Hearts captures that Europa league (or whatever it will be called) spot, but I know it is going to be a short run. Big deal. If it became available to all, the league would become better. More popular. Parity is a good thing. Unless you are the kings.

At the moment is the key phrase, if a salary cap was implemented and you force the best teams in the league to be mediocre and other teams start winning the league they would start to look to europe too, europe is the place to be, it always has. I remember as if it was yesterday when celtic were finishing in the likes of 5th place in the league, couldnt kick our own arses and all we ever talked about was the glory days in europe. Christ 3 years ago hearts supporters were talking about nothing but getting into europe. Europe is the be all and end all. A league where everyone can beat everyone is nice, but if youre regularly getting pumped by swiss teams in europe its still completely irrelevant to the footballing world. Then the slide down the coefficient i detailed before starts and even less european spots are given to the league. Forced parity doesnt make it more interesting if youre a complete non-entity in the wider footballing world.


Last time I checked the Scotland squad list, many of them ply their trade in the glorious Championship already (providing they aren't sitting the bench). What would be the difference? Rangers and Celtic's stockpile would be spread around the SPL a bit more evenly. Thats all. A few more would head to England, but maybe more would stay at home to play in a more competitive league, therefore making the whole league better.

Rangers and celtics squad wouldnt be spread around the league though, the better players would likely leave the league entirely to make more money somewhere else, wed be left with the dregs. Improving the league by taking the best players out doesnt make a lot of sense, there could be improvement in the long run true, but I really dont see it in such a competative market as the footballing world, especially when you wouldnt be able to use europe as an enticement.

I agree with you that the current dependence on the Old Firm matches is at the core of the problem. Something has to give. Rangers and Celtic have to come down a peg and the rest of the league needs to suck it up and come up two or three. In the words of Rodney King "Can't we just all get along:D"

Again, I dont see why two clubs that have earned their success over a century would have to be hamstringed to benefit some short sighted greedy chairmen who have put their own clubs interests ahead of the football league for over a decade. at least 16 teams, playing each other twice a season with 2 up 2 down, anything less is no change.