A-Rod salary = 30 SUV's per game and how I feel about the game

[SoccerScout]

I used to love baseball. I grew up on it and became a huge Reds fan in the 70's as a kid when they had the Big Red machine. Johhny Bench was my first sports idol. Then I moved to Brazil, where I lived for 6 years and became a soccer addict.
Upon returning to the US in the mid 80's I had to re-adapt to the US Sports landscape. Even the Cosmos were gone by then. No soccer at all. No Internet to follow the Brazilian league, nothing but maybe a 2 week old newspaper which I would have to drive 20 Miles to get.
Initially upon my return I had no interest in Baseball, most of the players I knew in 1979 where gone by 1985 but by 1990 when the Reds beat the A's in the series 4-0 I was back into it.
I was always a Yankee hater but in 1991 I had a summer off at the beach and would get WPIX and started watching the lowly Yankees play. Always a sucker for underdogs, I started rooting for the Yanks and going to games on occasion. By 92 I was a diehard Yankee fan even though they sucked bad.
Then by 94 they got better and when it looked like the Yanks may finally make it back to the series the greddy players went on strike, killing the season. I was pretty ticked off but eventually let it slide. I just had a hard time accepting that people making Millions a year would dare to strike.
The pinacle of my Baseball fanaticism came in 96 when after years of suffereing the Yanks won the series. I was estatic. I would watch every game, a true diehard.
But then something funny happened. As 97 and 98 went by my interest in the Yankees and Baseball started dying out. A variety of factors contributed. More strike talks kept creeping about further ticking me off. Ticket prices increasing dramatically and absurd prices for hotdogs or beer at games just to pay the higher and higher salaries. MLS came around. The Internet provided me with more soccer and DISH network provided me with a Brazilian station that shows Brazilian soccer games. In a matter of 2-3 years I went from the hardest of the diehardest baseball fans to barely being able to name 3 players on the Yankees team.
So to me, the A-Rod transfer is anti-climatic, I dont see what he does worth $250 Million dollars. I dont care how good he is but to me being great in Baseball is just not as impressive as being a great Basketball player or soccer player. Asthetically hitting a ball with a stick isnt as athletic in my mind.
Today CNN anounced the Hot Dogs at Yankee Stadium may cost $10 a pop this year. Its highway robbery and I refuse to support it and A_Rods equivilent of 30 SUVs a game salary.

[s]

[jamison]

By 96, after years of suffering? Dude, you were a fan for 4 years. I've been a fan since 78, and even I wouldn't call it suffering. It wasn't like we were watching the Cleveland Indians from 1970- 90 or something.

First of all, hot dogs won't be $ 10.

Second, were you paying $ 6 for one last year? Anyone who was is beyond help. Go across the street, get 2 for $ 4 before the game. That cart vendor needs it worse than the guys inside, trust me.

Third, hot dog money isn't the point.

You have a right to get bothered by them making tons of money, and trying to take an ever increasing share from you, who can really least afford to give more to them.

As for 1994, it was people making millions arguing with people making more millions. You can call the players overpaid all you want, some of them are, but you are forgetting the fact that revenue is more of an issue than salary. If you put a salary cap on baseball, players get squeezed (a la the NBA), you end up with a few guys making top dollar and a lot of guys making cheese down at the bottom, while owners reap the benefits of ever increasing revenue.

What you forget is that hot dog prices, ticket prices, always go up. Owners use player salaries as an excuse to pass the buck, to blame someone else for their desire to make ever more money. If players salaries stayed flat, the owners would blame the economy, or inflation, or something else. No owner is giving back profits to the fans. They might pass it around to each other for a bit, but they aren't giving it to you and me.

The Yankees make 300 million in revenue a year, there about. For 2003 (http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2003/0428/064tab2.html), Seattle actually made more money than the Yankees ($ 23 million to $ 16), but anyway.

So, you have the Yankees making $ 300 million, and paying out $ 284 million in costs. So, since their salary was ~ $ 180 million, let's assume that ~ $ 100 million is a relatively fixed cost (for the sake of arguement), and that there is $ 200 million left over.

So, say you have a salary cap at $ 100 million, with a $ 10 million per player cap. This means Steinbrenner makes $100 million, instead of $16. Now, either way, the players aren't starving. But after Bernie Williams' knees go out and Mariano Rivera's arm falls off, Steinbrenner still makes money and they either get $ 100k a year to be a commentator for ESPN, or they get $ 30k a year as a coach somewhere. Now, they are still rich enough to invest well and never have to "work" again, but either way, I'd rather see the money go to them than to George, who has enough anyway.

Now, on the other hand you have the Kansas City Royals. Their revenue is a lot closer to $ 50 million. A $ 100 million dollar salary cap isn't going to help them out; it isn't going to give them $ 300 million in revenue to play with, or an extra $ 50 million to pay their players with. They are still going to have a payroll of $ 40 million, the owner will make a small profit of a million or two with revenue sharing, and they still won't be salary competitive with the Yankees who outspend them 2 to 1.

So, if you want to hate baseball, that's fine. But $ 10 hot dogs on CNN aren't the problem.

[soccernutter]

How about general cost of living to compair what is reasonable and what is not.

To compair the Yankees and Mariners, from the CNN cost of living idicator, I took jamison's assumption that the Yankees had $180mil payroll. That would be about $85mil in Seattle. For Kansas City it would be about $82mil.* According the link that jamison gave us, which is dated 4/28/03, player expences (salary) were $141mil. Same calculation as above and that nets $66mil for Seattle and $64mil for Kansas City. According that Forbes on line article, Seattle has player expences of $94mil while Kansas City has $61mil. So, everything being equal, as of the numbers of 4/28/03, both Seattle and KC had a more expensive payroll than the Yankees, Seattle being vastly more. So, according to that calculation, the Yahkees are actually spending less, comparitivly, than Seattle or Kansas City. :eek:

* Calculations came from CNN: http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html I used Manhattan for the Yankees. Neither "Seattle" nor "Kansas City" was among the selections, so I used suburbs of both: Tacoma and Lawerence, respectivly. Additionally, I was unable to use "180,000,000" so I shortened that to "180,000." All numbers are actually in $100thnd. For cuiosity, I did Manhattan and Boston using $141,000. Boston was $90,301.92. Accoring the the Forbes link that jamison gave us, Boston's actual payroll was $124mil. Seems they, too, payed out more than the Yankees. And we know that numbers don't lie. ;)

[skipshady]

Originally posted by soccernutter
To compair the Yankees and Mariners, from the CNN cost of living idicator, I took jamison's assumption that the Yankees had $180mil payroll. That would be about $85mil in Seattle. For Kansas City it would be about $82mil.*Yeah, cost of living certainly puts an interesting perspective on what player salaries are really worth. By moving from Texas to New York, A-Rod is taking a considerable paycut in terms of real money - not only is the cost of living cheaper in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area (i.e. housing, gallon of gas, carton of milk etc) but Texas has no state income tax, which makes a huuuuuge difference for someone in one of the higher tax brackets. My dollar goes twice as far in Dallas as it does in NY so I imagine the difference is a bit more profound for A-Rod, who earns quite a bit more than I do.

Of course, it evens out because the Yankees are going to make much, much more from its local broadcast rights than would the Royals or the Rangers. Charging $6 for hot dogs is nothing when you can simply ask MSG or the CBS affiliate for more money, or simply start your own cable network.

[riverplate]

I understand the Texas Rangers are working out A-Rod's taxes. Besides, if he had to foot his own bill, the endorsement dough he'll be making in the Capital Of The World would surely make up for it.

I might add that rumor has it the Yanks have already sold 2.5 million tickets for next year. You can't even get two seats together anymore, just singles. They may hit 4 million in attendance!

[skipshady]

Originally posted by riverplate
I understand the Texas Rangers are working out A-Rod's taxes. Besides, if he had to foot his own bill, the endorsement dough he'll be making in the Capital Of The World would surely make up for it.Are you sure the bump in endorsements dollars for a NY athlete isn't overstated. Has this been documented in any quantifiable way (I'm asking, not arguing)?

Now, I can see how someone like Derek Jeter benefits from playing in NY. And I doubt Tiki Barber or Jeremy Shockey would have their endorsement contracts if they weren't Giants. But they are all camera-friendly.
You take someone like Jason Giambi, who is less comfortable in the spotlight, he hasn't exactly been all over the airwaves. He's had one Nike commercial and the deodrant endorsement, but otherwise, he's been more or less invisible. Ditto for Roger Clemens.

On the flipside, A-Rod has already been appearing in national campaigns for Nike and EA Sports, and has appeared in GQ and the SI swimsuit issue. Can he really expect a serious increase in endorsements?

[655321]

I hate good 'ol days syndrome...

[soccernutter]

Originally posted by skipshady
Yeah, cost of living certainly puts an interesting perspective on what player salaries are really worth. By moving from Texas to New York, A-Rod is taking a considerable paycut in terms of real money - not only is the cost of living cheaper in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area (i.e. housing, gallon of gas, carton of milk etc) but Texas has no state income tax, which makes a huuuuuge difference for someone in one of the higher tax brackets.

I'm sure he is doing what alot of other athletes are doing (or in A-rod's case, keeping) by having his perminent residence be in Texas. Same thing Shaq does by keeping his house in Orlando (another state with no state income tax).

[riverplate]

Originally posted by skipshady
Are you sure the bump in endorsements dollars for a NY athlete isn't overstated. Has this been documented in any quantifiable way (I'm asking, not arguing)?

Can he really expect a serious increase in endorsements?

Yeah, Skip, I think we can. I don't want to overstate it, but I have doubts as to whether it can be overstated.

I don't think we've seen anything as big as this in most of our New York lifetimes. Reggie and Messier weren't as big as this, and Namath (whom I remember) is probably the closest parallel. Believe me, they didn't call that guy Broadway Joe for nothing. He was THE MAN in this city during his tenure. I know you're a basketball fan. Think Jordan coming to the Knicks in his prime.

A-Rod's going to transcend the sport in our city. Just watch. And the ancillary cash he'll bring in for Boss George. WOW. This was a business decision on both their parts as much as a baseball one.

[riverplate]

Originally posted by soccernutter
I'm sure he is doing what alot of other athletes are doing (or in A-rod's case, keeping) by having his perminent residence be in Texas. Same thing Shaq does by keeping his house in Orlando (another state with no state income tax).

According to what I've read in the papers, part of the deal is that the Rangers have the responsibility to unload A-Rod's digs in Texas. He wanted out COMPLETELY.

[jamison]

Also, there is a law (I don't know if every state has it) about being taxed on where you work. There was an article (on espn, I don't have the link nearby) that said that because of Minnesota's laws, A-Rod had to pay $ 335,000 in Minnesota state taxes for the 15 or whatever games he played against the Twins. So, I don't know how that works out, but it could be that even with a home in Florida (for example), he'd be on the hook for the NY state taxes from his 81 home games.

Either way...he's making tons of money, but paying tons of taxes. As for the whether you could ever get baseball to be more like football in terms of salary and competitiveness, I don't think it will happen. FYI, NFL raised the cap to $ 80 million, but I think NFL teams all make considerably more than baseball teams due to the pooling of TV dollars from national TV contracts, unlike the local/regional deal that MLB teams have.

[skipshady]

Originally posted by riverplate
Yeah, Skip, I think we can. I don't want to overstate it, but I have doubts as to whether it can be overstated.

I don't think we've seen anything as big as this in most of our New York lifetimes. Reggie and Messier weren't as big as this, and Namath (whom I remember) is probably the closest parallel. Believe me, they didn't call that guy Broadway Joe for nothing. He was THE MAN in this city during his tenure. I know you're a basketball fan. Think Jordan coming to the Knicks in his prime.
Good point about Messier and Broadway Joe. But I�fm not convinced A-Rod will benefit that much from playing in the Boogie Down. See, I have a theory �| bear with me now �| that athlete-endorsers in New York roughly fall into 3 categories:

1. The Joe Namath
The Joe is a fairly good athlete, but perhaps not best at what he does. Or he is, but isn't the most photogenic or congenial. But The Joe makes up for his shortcoming by being in NY (and bonus points if you bring a championship to NY) - with the combination of his talent, on-field accomplishments and -most importantly- his charm and charisma, he can supplement his meager earnings with endorsement contracts.
Derek Jeter, Latrell Sprewell (until this summer), Tiki Barber, Jeremy Shockey and now Stephon Marbury fit the bill. Put these guys in Milwaukee or Kansas City and they become Trent Green, but because they are in the country's largest media market, cameras point to them.
To a lesser extent, Patrick Ewing was a Joe. Sure, he had all the personality of a Pet Rock and he never was a darling of Madison Avenue, Ewing managed to stay in the spotlight because he was the official Most Recognizable Knick.

2. The Andy Pettite
The Andy is a bit like the Joe, but because he's a little lacking in personality, he doesn't get the endorsement deals despite the "NY" insignia on his uniform. Maybe the Andy's dull. Maybe the Andy just doesn't like the bright lights of Broadway. For whatever reason, the Andy's talent doesn't translate into exposure.
Roberto Alomar is the ultimate Andy Pettite - he's a good looking guy, at one point the best 2nd baseman in baseball. But a looooow Q-rating because he's not a big fan of human interaction, except with a certain tennis player who bears a creepy resemblance to Gaizka Mendieta. So reclusive is Alomar, that throughout his time in Toronto, he lived in a hotel - not just any hotel, a hotel inside the Skydome.
Of course you can be an outsized personality, say Mo Vaughn, and completely drop off the radar because you don't produce on the field.
Or maybe the Mets don't matter unless your name is Mike Piazza.
But then again, Roger Clemens couldn't sell bug repellent in nudist colony and he was a Yankee...

3. The Wayne Gretzky
The Wayne is so big that he can get big time national endorsements wherever he is (well, at least in the Lower 48). Sure, the Wayne makes headlines when he first arrives in the Big Apple, but then the market corrects. The Wayne's Q-rating is so high that it simply can't get higher. I imagine Michael Jordan would be a Wayne. Perhaps Shquille O'Neal would be a Wayne too. Michael Jordan could sell boxer briefs if he had played in Altoona. He didn't have to come to Madison Ave - Madison Ave came to him.
Of course, he becomes a bit bigger if the City embraces him, but that's just in the region. Nationally, the Wayne is the Wayne.

Hockey is a special case though, as both the Rangers and the NHL are in decline nationally. There are franchises that do well, but the focus tends to be regional. So you have someone like Messier who used to be a household name, a Joe, if you will, but now, even his autumnal resurgence hasn't helped his Q rating.
And Eric Lindros actually gets less attention than he used to. While he wasn't exactly raking in the endorsement dollars in Philly, he was nonetheless one of the most recognizable faces in hockey. Since his move to New York, he has more or less disappeared.

Now, I don't know if A-Rod is a Joe or a Wayne. He is already an attractive product endorser but he has remained a bit under the radar in Texas. Was it by design or was it the market? Will he un-seat Jeter as the resident pretty boy? We'll just have to see.

[DamonEsquire]

Has anyone else bought fantasy team through ESPN?

I use http://www.investorwords.com and bracket creep means: Slowly moving into higher tax brackets as one's income rises to keep up with inflation.

[BenReilly]

Originally posted by 655321
I hate good 'ol days syndrome...

Except the old days were better in this case. I'm amazed that people here are actually so delusional that they can't figure out we're paying these insane salaries. I still love baseball, but not quite as much as I did years ago.

[riverplate]

You know what's a real riot? The Mets may very well walk out on MSG Network after this season and jump over to YES, which would then set up a YES 2 station just for the Mets! It's been in the papers.

[otterulz]

Originally posted by riverplate
You know what's a real riot? The Mets may very well walk out on MSG Network after this season and jump over to YES, which would then set up a YES 2 station just for the Mets! It's been in the papers.
Is this what the world is coming to? Bad enough that Sal "Red Light" Mussina retired, now the Knicks and Rangers are gonna leave the FAN for ESPN Radio.

And now the Mets going to the evil YES network?!?!?! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!