VfB Stuttgart - Pushing for Europe, 08/09 Season Thread Part III (R)

[Chimaera]

I don't think I agree that Huntelaar just padded his stats against competition in the Dutch league and is therefore overrated.

He scored at a good clip for Madrid last season, he has consistently scored for the Dutch National team, and he scored at a decent pace with his clubs in play for Europe.

The guy is just a scorer. there's nothing flashy, and his skills don't jump out at you, but he finds a way to finish. That's the end result.


(I know about the nightclub setup, I was just making a poor attempt at a joke ;))

[footyfan1]

I don't think I agree that Huntelaar just padded his stats against competition in the Dutch league and is therefore overrated.

I didn't say that, but I think someone else said something to the effect that he only did major scoring in the Dutch League and half a season at Madrid wasn't enough to see if he can do it against the big boys.

I tend to agree with that person.



He scored at a good clip for Madrid last season

Yes, but let's look at who he scored against:

Last season, he had 8 goals in 20 appearances for Real.


On match day 23, he scored a goal in a 4-1 Real victory over Sporting Gijon. Sporting Gijon finished 14 in the league.

On match day 24, he scored two goals in a 6-1 Real victory over Real Betis. Real Betis finished 18th in the league and was relegated.

On match day 26, he scored Real's only goal in their 1-1 draw with Atletico Madrid. To Huntelaar's credit, Atletico Madrid finished 6th in the league and are Real's second-biggest rival.

On match day 27, he scored two goals in Real's 5-2 victory over Athletic Bilbao. Athletic Bilbao finished 13th in the league.

On match day 28, he scored two goals in Real's 3-0 victory over UD Almeria. UD Almeria finished 11th in the league.



Before that he appeared in matches 17-21 without scoring. The opponents?

Villareal, Mallorca, Osasuna, Deportivo and Numancia. Although to be fair, against Mallorca and Numancia, he only played 18 and 14 minutes respectively.


After that, he appeared in matches 29-38 without scoring. The opponents?

Malaga, Valladolid, Recreativo Huelva, Getafe, Sevilla, Barcelona, Villareal, Mallorca, and Osasuna.

But to be fair again, he only played 22 minutes against Sevilla and 12 minutes against Osasuna.

However, against Osasuna, that was because he came into the match in the 76th minute and by the 88th minute had seen two yellow cards.


I think Huntelaar simply had a "hot streak".

He didn't score jack shit in five matches before his "streak" and didn't score in 9 matches after it.

I'm not comparing these two players at all, but I know a similar "hot streak" convinced BVB to pay 5M Euros for Nelson Valdez when he was truly worth about 2M.

I think you guys are trying to pay 20M for a kid who is truly worth about 10-15M.

But I understand better in this case why it is being done.




he has consistently scored for the Dutch National team

When he's had the chance, yes. I know he only scored one goal at Euro 2008, but it was also in his only appearance.

He does have 13 goals in 21 appearances for the Netherlands.

However, more than half have come in friendlies.




and he scored at a decent pace with his clubs in play for Europe.

Again, against who?

The two biggest clubs he's scored against in European competition are Inter (1) and Bremen (1). After that, the list is littered with nobodies.

Oh. Sorry. He did score two goals against Dinamo Zagreb in a UEFA Cup match Ajax got eliminated in back in 07-08.


The guy is just a scorer. there's nothing flashy, and his skills don't jump out at you, but he finds a way to finish. That's the end result.

This is what I totally agree with. But is that talent truly worth 20M Euros or is VfB simply mesmerized by his name and "reputation??" :o

I know this will sound bad, but take a look at Huntelaar's current numbers and look at Alexander Frei's numbers from the same point in his career.

With Frei, the names are smaller, but the European and international goal-scoring clips are right about the same......... :cool:

[Rainer24]

I don't think we are "mesmerized" with him as a player, we just need a striker in a year when prices have been grossly inflated. Is Kaka really 2.5x as good as Ribery was two years ago? No, but he cost Real 2.5x as much as Munich paid for Ribery.

Huntelaar is a substantially above average 9, and maybe they just cost € 20 million now.

[schwabenland]

"Stuttgart are tracking Real Madrid's Dutch striker Klaas-Jan Huntelaar. The Germans were ready to spend 20 million Euros to sign him and Real officials were available to sell him. However, today's news is that Huntelaar has refused to join Stuttgart."

i really hope this isn't true, please!!!!!

[kaiser kraut]

source?

[Chimaera]

I didn't say that, but I think someone else said something to the effect that he only did major scoring in the Dutch League and half a season at Madrid wasn't enough to see if he can do it against the big boys.

I tend to agree with that person.





Yes, but let's look at who he scored against:

Last season, he had 8 goals in 20 appearances for Real.


On match day 23, he scored a goal in a 4-1 Real victory over Sporting Gijon. Sporting Gijon finished 14 in the league.

On match day 24, he scored two goals in a 6-1 Real victory over Real Betis. Real Betis finished 18th in the league and was relegated.

On match day 26, he scored Real's only goal in their 1-1 draw with Atletico Madrid. To Huntelaar's credit, Atletico Madrid finished 6th in the league and are Real's second-biggest rival.

On match day 27, he scored two goals in Real's 5-2 victory over Athletic Bilbao. Athletic Bilbao finished 13th in the league.

On match day 28, he scored two goals in Real's 3-0 victory over UD Almeria. UD Almeria finished 11th in the league.



Before that he appeared in matches 17-21 without scoring. The opponents?

Villareal, Mallorca, Osasuna, Deportivo and Numancia. Although to be fair, against Mallorca and Numancia, he only played 18 and 14 minutes respectively.


After that, he appeared in matches 29-38 without scoring. The opponents?

Malaga, Valladolid, Recreativo Huelva, Getafe, Sevilla, Barcelona, Villareal, Mallorca, and Osasuna.

But to be fair again, he only played 22 minutes against Sevilla and 12 minutes against Osasuna.

However, against Osasuna, that was because he came into the match in the 76th minute and by the 88th minute had seen two yellow cards.


I think Huntelaar simply had a "hot streak".

He didn't score jack shit in five matches before his "streak" and didn't score in 9 matches after it.

I'm not comparing these two players at all, but I know a similar "hot streak" convinced BVB to pay 5M Euros for Nelson Valdez when he was truly worth about 2M.

I think you guys are trying to pay 20M for a kid who is truly worth about 10-15M.

But I understand better in this case why it is being done.






When he's had the chance, yes. I know he only scored one goal at Euro 2008, but it was also in his only appearance.

He does have 13 goals in 21 appearances for the Netherlands.

However, more than half have come in friendlies.






Again, against who?

The two biggest clubs he's scored against in European competition are Inter (1) and Bremen (1). After that, the list is littered with nobodies.

Oh. Sorry. He did score two goals against Dinamo Zagreb in a UEFA Cup match Ajax got eliminated in back in 07-08.




This is what I totally agree with. But is that talent truly worth 20M Euros or is VfB simply mesmerized by his name and "reputation??" :o

I know this will sound bad, but take a look at Huntelaar's current numbers and look at Alexander Frei's numbers from the same point in his career.

With Frei, the names are smaller, but the European and international goal-scoring clips are right about the same......... :cool:

All that's fine and well, but lets get one thing clear. Are you trying to say that even scoring against mediocre competition in La Liga would mean that he can't do it in the Bundesliga?

Frankly, other than Bayern, what teams in Germany are that dominant to be significantly better than teams in the mid or bottom run of La Liga?

Are you trying to say that Frei's a better buy?

Personally, I don't think he would have trouble at all being a dominant striker in the Bundesliga, and given some aid from his side, be able to do well on the Continent. I don't buy the rubbish that he only scores against mediocre teams and that he isn't good enough for what is being asked for him. The asking price is steep, but that's where the market is at this point, especially if VfB is actually going to have a shot to get him. Why sell Gomez (other than him wanting out) for a steep price, if you're going to sit on the money and not buy quality. To get quality players, you have to pay prices. Especially if you're not a name in Europe and have enough to command attention. You're getting a guy who is going to play for the national team, and can raise VfB's standing a bit.

I don't see that as a bad move. But hey, he probably won't come anyhow so it's all arguing over nothing.

[footyfan1]

All that's fine and well, but lets get one thing clear. Are you trying to say that even scoring against mediocre competition in La Liga would mean that he can't do it in the Bundesliga?

No. If I wanted to say that, I would freakin' say it. I like to look at every side of the story.

These guys here know how I am. If I didn't think Huntelaar could score in the Bundesliga, I would come right out and say that.

I think if you or anyone else can point to someone's scoring record and suggest that he's worth 20M, I can break down that scoring record and show you why I think he isn't worth 20M.

I showed you how someone can think Huntelaar is overrated without disparaging the Dutch League.



Frankly, other than Bayern, what teams in Germany are that dominant to be significantly better than teams in the mid or bottom run of La Liga?

Hamburg, Bremen, Schalke, Leverkusen, Dortmund, Hoffenheim, and Wolfsburg.



Are you trying to say that Frei's a better buy?

No. And this time I said if you compare their early numbers. I suggested they are similar players.

Again, if I want to say something I just come out and say it.



Personally, I don't think he would have trouble at all being a dominant striker in the Bundesliga, and given some aid from his side, be able to do well on the Continent.

A very good BL striker? Yes. Dominant? I don't think so.

I don't think he's any better than Mladen Petric.


I don't buy the rubbish that he only scores against mediocre teams


Rubbish? Man please. You just lost any credibility you had right there. I didn't just say that, I gave PROOF!! The facts are out there. If you choose to call FACTS "rubbish", that tells me all I need to know about you.


and that he isn't good enough for what is being asked for him.


No one said that. I only said he isn't truly worth the price being asked. Someone should stop being so sensitive.


The asking price is steep, but that's where the market is at this point, especially if VfB is actually going to have a shot to get him. Why sell Gomez (other than him wanting out) for a steep price, if you're going to sit on the money and not buy quality. To get quality players, you have to pay prices. Especially if you're not a name in Europe and have enough to command attention. You're getting a guy who is going to play for the national team, and can raise VfB's standing a bit.

And Huntelaar isn't the only "quality" guy out there. He's just the one VfB thinks they can get. The others said they think Wagner Love can come in and do the job too. I agree with them.


I don't see that as a bad move. But hey, he probably won't come anyhow so it's all arguing over nothing.

No one ever said it would be a "bad move". I even said I fully understand why VfB is overpaying.

But it seems you decided you didn't like FACTS about Huntelaar and tried to make it all about things that were never said.

[schwabenland]

Because he scored against teams like betis, gijon and numancia it doesn't mean he only score against mediocre teams! He had four months to prove himself and you can't judge a player by which teams he score against. He also scored agaisnt Atletico which you pointed out earlier. Maybe next year the goals would have comed against, valencia, villareal, sevilla and barca, who freakin knows!? Actually Huntelaar had a godd score ranking with real, scoring 8 goals in 20 games, and he didnt start all 20. If we could sign a player like Klaas-Jan i'll open a bottle of Champagne my friends. But we'll just have to wait and see until Friday, i think huntelaar will decide for which club he want to play for by then.
Btw my earlier post regarding huntelaar not wanting to sign for vfb was dated 12. july so it was of no matter, it was regarding the 2 m a year salary discussion and huntelaar hadn't said anything himself, only rumours.

[footyfan1]

Because he scored against teams like betis, gijon and numancia it doesn't mean he only score against mediocre teams! He had four months to prove himself and you can't judge a player by which teams he score against. He also scored agaisnt Atletico which you pointed out earlier. Maybe next year the goals would have comed against, valencia, villareal, sevilla and barca, who freakin knows!? Actually Huntelaar had a godd score ranking with real, scoring 8 goals in 20 games, and he didnt start all 20. If we could sign a player like Klaas-Jan i'll open a bottle of Champagne my friends. But we'll just have to wait and see until Friday, i think huntelaar will decide for which club he want to play for by then.

He actually scored eight goals in five matches in a six-week span.

The rest of the time, he didn't do shit!

If Huntelaar is as impressive as you and the other guy or girl seems to think he is, I'd think Real would be keeping him.......

Instead of focusing on a "name" you should be happy if you guys can sign ANYONE who can come in and adequately fill that hole Gomez left.

Huntelaar isn't the only out there who should be able to do this. And it is obvious he is doing what he can to avoid coming to Stuttgart. :rolleyes:

[Rainer24]

He actually scored eight goals in five matches in a six-week span.

The rest of the time, he didn't do shit!

If Huntelaar is as impressive as you and the other guy or girl seems to think he is, I'd think Real would be keeping him.......

Instead of focusing on a "name" you should be happy if you guys can sign ANYONE who can come in and adequately fill that hole Gomez left.

Huntelaar isn't the only out there who should be able to do this. And it is obvious he is doing what he can to avoid coming to Stuttgart. :rolleyes:


Yeah, this whole pursuit is starting to get a little old. I more and more get the feeling this guy thinks he is too big for us, which he isn't, and if he feels that way, screw him. Gignac was the guy I really wanted us to go for, and I'm wondering why we didn't try a bit harder to make that happen. It was always obvious that we weren't going to get a player to come in a replace Gomez's production, so I almost wish that we would have just splashed out that money on two good, young players who might make it happen between them. Now we have focused all our attention several deals, none of which have happened. If this Huntelaar thing doesn't happen, I'm going to be seriously pissed. I might be living in Stuttgart within the next couple months, which means I would have to protest this whole ridiculousness...by still going to as many games as I can. OK, I'm a weak man. What can I say?

[sean4stuttgart]

Goal.com reports that tottenham are offering madrid payments in installments because huntelaar prefers england....

I almost dont want him to come anymore because I dont think the fans are going to recieve him nicely anymore

[Rainer24]

I am so sick of this whole thing. If he thinks playing for an English wannabe is better than playing for a team that finished just a few points off the Bundesliga championship and will probably be playing in the Champions League, then he can piss off. There is still time to get someone else.

[footyfan1]

I am so sick of this whole thing. If he thinks playing for an English wannabe is better than playing for a team that finished just a few points off the Bundesliga championship and will probably be playing in the Champions League, then he can piss off. There is still time to get someone else.

Rainer, please consider the source.

Goal.com is one of the worst rumor-mongering sites out there.

If Tottenham was really about to launch a big bid for a player with a name such as Huntelaar's, it would be all over the British football press.

My friend (who incidentally is on his way here as a stop on a trip to Austria) said Tottenham would not be going after Huntelaar unless they got rid of Darren Bent or Roman Pavlyuchenko. I believed him then and I believe him now.

However, if you don't wish to trust that word, the two arguably biggest names in the British football press, Sky and BBC, have NOTHING linking Tottenham and Huntelaar.

Don't you think they would be all over it if there was something between them???

[footyfan1]

Goal.com reports that tottenham are offering madrid payments in installments because huntelaar prefers england....

I almost dont want him to come anymore because I dont think the fans are going to recieve him nicely anymore


Dude, Goal.com would still be pretty useless if you were out of toilet papers and printed off the pages to wipe your ass.

You have to consider the source dude......

Just my opinion, but I think if Huntelaar can't get to AC Milan, Arsenal or another club of such stature, he'll be content to fight for a spot at Real......

[Rainer24]

Rainer, please consider the source.

Goal.com is one of the worst rumor-mongering sites out there.

If Tottenham was really about to launch a big bid for a player with a name such as Huntelaar's, it would be all over the British football press.

My friend (who incidentally is on his way here as a stop on a trip to Austria) said Tottenham would not be going after Huntelaar unless they got rid of Darren Bent or Roman Pavlyuchenko. I believed him then and I believe him now.

However, if you don't wish to trust that word, the two arguably biggest names in the British football press, Sky and BBC, have NOTHING linking Tottenham and Huntelaar.

Don't you think they would be all over it if there was something between them???


The fact that there is nothing is the real British press is the part that worries me.

Goal.com is a crap shoot. Everything there is sourced from other places, so you never know.

The real problem is that we agreed on the fee with Real quite a while ago now, and it still hasn't happened, which means that Huntelaar himself is still holding out for someone else to come for him and I am just tired of it. I want it to be over one way or the other by Monday so there is still time to get someone else.

Are we really in the running for Vagner Love? Guys like him pull in some really hefty wages with those Russian clubs.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I almost dont want him to come anymore because I dont think the fans are going to recieve him nicely anymore

Not receive him nicely? Dude, if I could i'd personally drive down to Madrid and bring him up!

[sean4stuttgart]

LOL. you guys need to chilllll. haha- it was just a rumor, and if tottenham sells bently, they will have enough money to outright buy huntelaar. Why do we want someone who doesnt want to be here? I would rather have Love who is a proven talent and wants to be here? If we end up not getting huntelaar, the past three weeks will be a waste of time. Fans are starting to get impatient, not with heldt as much as with huntelaar, he thinks he is better than us and it pisses people off.

[sean4stuttgart]

lol alright dude

[footyfan1]

The fact that there is nothing is the real British press is the part that worries me.

Goal.com is a crap shoot. Everything there is sourced from other places, so you never know.


Trust me, if Tottenham was in a move for Huntelaar, Sky and BBC would be all over it.

Shit, for that matter, the German press would be all over it.

An English club hijacking a German club's move for a Real Madrid player?

Hell yeah they'd be all over that!




The real problem is that we agreed on the fee with Real quite a while ago now, and it still hasn't happened, which means that Huntelaar himself is still holding out for someone else to come for him and I am just tired of it. I want it to be over one way or the other by Monday so there is still time to get someone else.

I told you guys last week that Huntelaar is holding out for a "bigger club" to come get him. That was obvious. However, even then, I didn't expect it to go on this long.

It just makes it even more obvious that he does not want to join Stuttgart. I'm thinking he doesn't want to play in the Bundesliga period.

He probably thinks its beneath him. :rolleyes:

I'm thinking he's also still hoping Milan will come back to him.

Which just might happen since Sevilla wants 20M for Fabiano.

For some reason, Milan thought they could only get him for 15M.

I'm thinking Milan will go back to Real and say:

"Look, we'll give you 15M for the kid and pay you another five if he scores 10 league goals and we qualify for the CL. He's not going to sign with Stuttgart, but he will with us."

I think Real would rather take 15M from Milan than have Huntelaar hanging around.


Are we really in the running for Vagner Love? Guys like him pull in some really hefty wages with those Russian clubs.

I believe that answer is yes and of course, it will also depend on how much you guys are willing to pay him too.

[footyfan1]

Not receive him nicely? Dude, if I could i'd personally drive down to Madrid and bring him up!


I'm with Sean.

I wouldn't want a guy who so obviously doesn't want to join my club and only will if someone else doesn't come for him....

Huntelaar isn't the only guy who can fill that void. He might not even be the best one.

Just the biggest "name".......