VfB Stuttgart - Pushing for Europe, 08/09 Season Thread Part III (R)

[Rainer24]

Jovanovic won't come:
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/511044/


Can incompetence get any greater?



I don't know if that's fair, really. 8.5 million is too much for that guy at his age. Not Heldt's fault if Liege decided they wanted more once they saw once the check from Bayern came through, which is exactly what happened.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I disagree - I think we have worried much too much about prices over the past years (whilst, oddly, still managing to over-buy some, Marica, and overpay others, Basturk). Now we've got money, and we're trying to build a side that can cement itself near the top in Germany and make the Champions League. In my opinion manning up and just paying 2-3 million more than we would have originally preferred for a player who is clearly very, very good and could clearly help us move forward, would have been worth it. Especially considering that the last 7 weeks(!) we've been focusing on him as the choice for the leftwing, apparently taking no serious looks at other potential candidates.

When you have a shortlist and deliberately single out one player for one of the positions for an entire month, a player wants to join you and is, in our present situation, easy to afford, then you have little excuse in my eyes not to get him, unless someone better turns up, which wasn't the case here.

Just look at Bayern: sure they've spent a ton on Gomez, Pranjic, Tymoschchuk etc etc this summer, but is anyone saying these are mistakes? No. They are strong additions to their squad that, unfortunately, will once again make them enormous favourites for the coming season. You don't see Hoeness calling something off because a very could candiate costed 2 million more than he would've liked.

We need to spend if we are to stand a chance of making another top 3 finish or even a top 5 finish. And the way I see it that includes spending a little more than one would like on certain players if it means that we make quality signings who help us further.

Let's go back a bit: Trochowski costed 1 million more than we would have liked 4 years ago, I think it was 3 rather than 2 million. So we dropped out of the running and he moved to Hamburg. Now he's a national player worth like 2 and a half times that amount. Last winter we could get Ozil but again Heldt only wanted a loan with an option rather than a straight buy. He lacked balls there too. Allofs of Bremen had the balls, bought Ozil, and now has imo one of the most exciting upcoming players in Germany at his services.

Being overly-frugal has not helped us, it has mainly led to missed opportunities and, inevitably, sub-optimum buys towards the end of the market as our searches for new players become more urgent.

And I see Heldt as having missed another opportunity here.

[Rainer24]

There is a huge difference between paying 8 million for a 22-year old Marica, who you will most likely be able to sell at some point for a decent amount of money and paying even more for a guy is probably going to be 31 or 32 by the end of his contract and therfore have little to no resale value. Jovanovic is not worth what they are demanding. I'd rather take whatever we might think is reasonable for Barnetta, and then spend a couple million over that figure if need be, because there is the potential of getting something for him in the future. Yes, we have historically done way too much to live up to all the stereotypes re: Swabians in the past, but I don't think Heldt was wrong to hold his line on this player, even if it is frustrating. Liege is going to be in the Champions League this year and have already lost a lot of key players over the past two seasons. They don't need the money, and they do need the player, so he is worth more to them than is reasonable for us to spend.

[benztown]

I think the problem is not that Jovanovic won't come. I can understand that we didn't go for him after Liege doubled the price.
The problem is that we have no plan b, which makes us even more susceptible for blackmail than before. Expect the next player we go for to be even more overpriced!

I wonder for example why we didn't go for Elia also. He just signed with Hamburg, and I think he would have been a great addition, better than Jovanovic for about the same price.

But unfortunately we put all our eggs in one basket, namely Jovanovic and Ba, and now we dropped the basket...Ba is injured and Jovanovic overpriced.

[seashore10]

8.5m for a player that has only one-year contract left, hmmm, Marin transferred at this price and for Jovanovic the fee is a little high concerning his age. It is quite logical that Heldt stops this transaction if Liege insists on this price.

Isn't Jovanovic and Ba together already plan B? Because I consider plan A to be Helmes and Hleb. Unfortunately Helmes was seriously injured and had to be out for at least three (or six?) months, Hleb also dicided to stay in Barcelona; now Ba's injury seems serious for the club and Jovanovic becomes quite expensive.. Bad luck for VfB.

Edit: why not Elia? well IMO, maybe Heldt thought that for European competitions especially Champions League, an experienced player is more reliable than a young and talented one

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

@Rainer24

On Barnetta, sure he'd be a solid purchase, but Jovanovic is the better player and i'd rather pay two million more for him (since Barnetta would be around 6) and have a better player. On how they will play and what their value will be 3 seasons from now we cannot speculate on, there is no way of telling. Barnetta's only 24, a time where players should be continuing to improve year after year, yet he played much better in 07/08 than in 08/09. Maybe next year he'll be better than ever, maybe not.

Either way i'd still be pleased if we buy him - he'd be a nice addition - but he's not first choice. To be precise, he was third choice. First choice we couldn't get. Second choice we could, Heldt chose not to. Just like he believed Ozil to be too expensive 18 months ago when he was handed to us on a plate. After all, had we had him there wouldn't even be a leftwinger discussion right now.

Just gets to me. :(

[Equilibrium]

I don't know if that's fair, really. 8.5 million is too much for that guy at his age. Not Heldt's fault if Liege decided they wanted more once they saw once the check from Bayern came through, which is exactly what happened.
What are you talking about, we have no interest in that player whatsoever. :confused:

Stuttgartfan, to be fair we paid 11m euros for who I believe to be top 5 in the world in his position, that wasn't overpaying. :p They demanded 7.7 for Pranjic and we only paid 7m, Pranjic actually had to pay .7 out of his own pocket beause Hoeness is a cheap bastard! I understand your frustration and to a degree, I agree that you guys need to start spending now. You will have to overpay on 1, 2 or evern 3 million more than another player's worth. Hell, we overpaid on Gomez for you guys, you will have to now because clubs know you got a nice 30m just for one player. Some of you guys need to realize that you will probably not get players with their real worth. Also, Barnetta would be an upgrade over any starting wide midfielders you currently have, don't kid yourself around that. Either way, he would be a good improvement. It's time to get to work now though, you guys need a full-back, wide midfielder and striker at least though some depth wouldn't hurt either.

[Rainer24]

What are you talking about, we have no interest in that player whatsoever. :confused:

Stuttgartfan, to be fair we paid 11m euros for who I believe to be top 5 in the world in his position, that wasn't overpaying. :p They demanded 7.7 for Pranjic and we only paid 7m, Pranjic actually had to pay .7 out of his own pocket beause Hoeness is a cheap bastard! I understand your frustration and to a degree, I agree that you guys need to start spending now. You will have to overpay on 1, 2 or evern 3 million more than another player's worth. Hell, we overpaid on Gomez for you guys, you will have to now because clubs know you got a nice 30m just for one player. Some of you guys need to realize that you will probably not get players with their real worth. Also, Barnetta would be an upgrade over any starting wide midfielders you currently have, don't kid yourself around that. Either way, he would be a good improvement. It's time to get to work now though, you guys need a full-back, wide midfielder and striker at least though some depth wouldn't hurt either.


I am talking about Liege wanting a chunk of the money we got for Gomez.

[Rainer24]

@Rainer24

On Barnetta, sure he'd be a solid purchase, but Jovanovic is the better player and i'd rather pay two million more for him (since Barnetta would be around 6) and have a better player. On how they will play and what their value will be 3 seasons from now we cannot speculate on, there is no way of telling. Barnetta's only 24, a time where players should be continuing to improve year after year, yet he played much better in 07/08 than in 08/09. Maybe next year he'll be better than ever, maybe not.

Either way i'd still be pleased if we buy him - he'd be a nice addition - but he's not first choice. To be precise, he was third choice. First choice we couldn't get. Second choice we could, Heldt chose not to. Just like he believed Ozil to be too expensive 18 months ago when he was handed to us on a plate. After all, had we had him there wouldn't even be a leftwinger discussion right now.

Just gets to me. :(


I agree re: some of the previous situations having been badly screwed up, but I think this one is different. The guy was simply not worth what they wanted and you don't suddenly pay 70% more for a guy than was planned. That's too much and he is right to walk away from this one.

I'd much rather we pay 8 million for Barnetta. Yeah, he didn't have a great year, but there is time on his side and a history of good play in this league.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I'd say Hilbert and Barnetta are roughly the same in ability. Hilbert was better in 2007, Barnetta better in 2008, and both mediocre last season. They're similar age too. And I certainly would be amazed if anyone ever offered 8million for Hilbert this summer. So i'd say 8 million would be too much for Barnetta, but decent for Jovanovic. Nevertheless i'd still live with Barnetta, even at 8 million. Just as long as we get SOMEONE, somewhere... who, with any luck, is also a good winger.

[Rainer24]

I'd say Hilbert and Barnetta are roughly the same in ability. Hilbert was better in 2007, Barnetta better in 2008, and both mediocre last season. They're similar age too. And I certainly would be amazed if anyone ever offered 8million for Hilbert this summer. So i'd say 8 million would be too much for Barnetta, but decent for Jovanovic. Nevertheless i'd still live with Barnetta, even at 8 million. Just as long as we get SOMEONE, somewhere... who, with any luck, is also a good winger.


I think Barnetta is significantly more talented than Hilbert. Maybe the right young coach can get the best out of him. Hilbert is ok, but I'm less and less convinced 06-07 isn't going to be the best we'll ever see from him.

[footyfan1]

I think Barnetta is significantly more talented than Hilbert. Maybe the right young coach can get the best out of him. Hilbert is ok, but I'm less and less convinced 06-07 isn't going to be the best we'll ever see from him.


Totally agree with you!!

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I'd say they both have the same qualities - assists, speed - are both still a little one-dimensional in their play and are both fairly young. I see no great difference between them.

[berloha]

Instead of getting injured Demba several sources say that Stuttgart will pay a lot for Huntelaar. Man, I alreday broke with Demba. :mad:

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Kicker reporting that both Love and Huntelaar are being very seriously negotiated about at the moment. Huntelaar I still couldn't imagine wanting to come to us. But either of the two would be immense purchases, much better than Demba Ba. We shall see.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/bundesliga/startseite/artikel/511044/

[benztown]

http://www.marca.com/2009/07/07/futbol/equipos/real_madrid/1246981236.html

This is the article about Huntelaar coming to Stuttgart which started all this. If google translations can be trusted, it says something along the lines of Real evaluating Huntelaar between €20-25m and Stuttgart being the club who comes closest with their offer. The transfer could come to pass within the next couple of hours since Huntelaar would like to join the Bundesliga.

Then, there's apparently also a radio interview with Real's sport director Jorge Valdano who said that VfB officials will travel to Madrid tomorrow in order to negotiate and possibly finalize a deal. So I'm cautiously optimistic. Unless Huntelaar would be okay to go to Stuttgart in principle, it would make no sense at all for Heldt & Co to fly to Spain.

That would be great news. Huntelaar would be my #1 choice.
On the other hand, I don't wanna get my hopes up the way I did with Hleb...













...what the heck, just look how awesome this potential line-up is:

----------------Lehmann--------------
Celozzi---Tasci----Delpierre---Magnin

---------Khedira----Hitzlsperger-----
Barnetta----------------------Gebhart

---------Cacau-----Huntelaar---------

[kaiser kraut]

Well, now AC Milan says that they have put out an offer for Huntelaar... could mess up the process for VfB.

[benztown]

Ralf Rangnick said on a press conference that a decision regarding Ba has to be reached by Thursday, otherwise Hoffenheim would make the decision.

To me, this means that Hoffenheim has given Stuttgart a clear ultimatum regarding Ba: "Buy him by Thursday of piss off."

In any case, I think we will know a lot more about our team for next season by the end of the week.

[footyfan1]

I'd say they both have the same qualities - assists, speed - are both still a little one-dimensional in their play and are both fairly young. I see no great difference between them.


OK. You don't.

I wouldn't ever consider taking Hilbert in a choice with Barnetta. No freakin' way.

I think you need to take a closer look at Hilbert without the red and white glasses man.

[Equilibrium]

Real's evaluation of 20-25m euros is absolutely ridiculous considering they are selling him after half a season! :eek: They paid 15 or 20m in the first place for him didn't they? You guys would have to be quite ignorant if you pay a cent more than 20m imo, 15m euros would be a fair deal for both parties. Real Madrid want to get him out no matter what and there aren't a lot of clubs who will pay such an amount.