Can Soccer AND Football Work In Ottawa?

[Clonester]

I would have to say no. The track record of sports in this city shows a sports team cannot survive through poor ownership. Actually it takes a lot of effort to market an Ottawa sports team and make it a viable franchise. While both ownership groups look sound in my books, I think it would be wiser to support one franchise well than two not so well.

More importantly I don't believe there are enough hard core sports fans (or sports fans period) to support and buy tickets to both leagues. Not every football fan would support soccer or vice-versa, but I have to believe there is a lot of overlap. If you are dividing a small market in two, there is not a lot of support left to support a franchise. Instead of one thriving franchise you may end up with two failed ones.

[ChrisB]

More importantly I don't believe there are enough hard core sports fans (or sports fans period) to support and buy tickets to both leagues. Not every football fan would support soccer or vice-versa, but I have to believe there is a lot of overlap. If you are dividing a small market in two, there is not a lot of support left to support a franchise. Instead of one thriving franchise you may end up with two failed ones.

Interesting point. I would be a CFL season ticket holder UNLESS there was also an MLS team. In which case, I would only be an MLS season ticket holder and would go to 3 or 4 CFL games.

But, realistically, the CFL is cheap. MLS is cheap. In a metro area of 1.1 million, you can find 50K soccer fans and 50k football fans - all it takes is 15k diehards from each sport, and the rest will be casual.

You can get very good season tickets (20 yard line, lower bowl) for the Lions for $275. End zone lower bowl for $210. That is two games for the Sens.

The cheapest seats at TFC are $320 for a season ticket. And it would have to be slightly lower here (bigger stadium, smaller city).

I am already paying, what, $200 for Setanta!

[Coup de boule]

It's been said before that there is not a lot of overlap between the soccer fanbase and the CFL fanbase. So as I see it, the biggest challenge for both franchises to co-exist - assuming they both have a place to play and good ownership - is that they would be competing for corporate support.

I think it's possible, especially if they have the same ownership, but unlikely.

[ottawasportsfan]

I would have to say no. The track record of sports in this city shows a sports team cannot survive through poor ownership. Actually it takes a lot of effort to market an Ottawa sports team and make it a viable franchise. While both ownership groups look sound in my books, I think it would be wiser to support one franchise well than two not so well.

More importantly I don't believe there are enough hard core sports fans (or sports fans period) to support and buy tickets to both leagues. Not every football fan would support soccer or vice-versa, but I have to believe there is a lot of overlap. If you are dividing a small market in two, there is not a lot of support left to support a franchise. Instead of one thriving franchise you may end up with two failed ones.

I do think 2 teams would do fine.You have you football fans and soccer fans who yes i do beleave there is enough for 2 teams.I don't think your going to see alot of fans cross over to support another sport.I aslo think you could have a probleam if you only go with one team.Lets just say landsdown live wins now your going to have alot of soccer fan up set and the chances are a alot of those would not support the football team.

[Clonester]

Hmm, interesting responses. To be honest I don't view Ottawa highly as a sports town. Not just because a lot of franchises have failed and are failing. It seems like even the sports fans are not that passionate (with notable exceptions of course, including everyone here supporting the MLS bid). I would not be surprised if either franchise struggled even if there was just ONE sport, never mind two.

Ideally it would be great to have both sports, though.

[FandesRens]

I know the Canadian football side would do well. Even with a very bad team and horific ownership, at their worst they had 18 000 people a game. So with a solid organisation (which they have right now), considering there is the largest minor football organization in Ottawa of all of Canada, CFL football would not only do well but thrive.

On the MLS side, until a month ago I did not think that MLS would do well in Ottawa. But lately I have been pleasantly surprised to see all these people backing the bid. Soccer fans are all excited and that from everywhere in the metropolityan area of Ottawa. So now I am at the point that I think MLS could work in Ottawa. Melnyk's plan is good, there is no question that there would be synergy between the Sens and the MLS team. It makes sense.

The plus side, is that most football fans I know are not Soccer fans (but many said they would go to a game to check it out), and most Soccer fans are not football fans (but many did nonetheless say they might go to a game during a season). So while theyre is not much overlap between the two fanbases, they would each occasionaly attend the other.

Presently there is enough die hard football people to make the team in Otawa work. The die hard soccer, along with a couple of football curious, could build enough of a following for MLS soccer. Plus all the non-commited people who would go to games.

Both would work if done right (and right now, both are solid organizations). So It would work.

[ottawasportsfan]

Hmm, interesting responses. To be honest I don't view Ottawa highly as a sports town. Not just because a lot of franchises have failed and are failing. It seems like even the sports fans are not that passionate (with notable exceptions of course, including everyone here supporting the MLS bid). I would not be surprised if either franchise struggled even if there was just ONE sport, never mind two.

Ideally it would be great to have both sports, though.

1)No teams really are failing in ottawa.

2)Lets not confuse passionate with fan support.Would it be nice if every gfan was loud and proud yes but that does not means thata good or great sport city just because of that.The other factor is people who buy the tickets and go to the games.Ottawa is a very good hockey market and i really think could be a good soccer and football market.

2008-2009 Avg
Senators 18,000
67s 7,000
Olympics 3500

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

I think both franchises would work just fine in Ottawa with the proposed ownership groups, but they would need their own stadiums for it to happen.

[Clonester]

1)No teams really are failing in ottawa.

2)Lets not confuse passionate with fan support.Would it be nice if every gfan was loud and proud yes but that does not means thata good or great sport city just because of that.The other factor is people who buy the tickets and go to the games.Ottawa is a very good hockey market and i really think could be a good soccer and football market.

2008-2009 Avg
Senators 18,000
67s 7,000
Olympics 3500

1- The Lynx/Rapidz have failed twice and is still on life support. The Riders/Renegades same. The Senators weren't doing so well under their poor management years, but they are fine now.

2- Agreed. With good ownership Ottawa fans will buy tickets and go to games. Even if they aren't as vocal.

[ottawasportsfan]

1- The Lynx/Rapidz have failed twice and is still on life support. The Riders/Renegades same. The Senators weren't doing so well under their poor management years, but they are fine now.

2- Agreed. With good ownership Ottawa fans will buy tickets and go to games. Even if they aren't as vocal.

I would not say the rapidz failed theya re back under a new name this year.Last year they did not do to bad ticket wise.

[FandesRens]

1- The Lynx/Rapidz have failed twice and is still on life support. The Riders/Renegades same. The Senators weren't doing so well under their poor management years, but they are fine now.

2- Agreed. With good ownership Ottawa fans will buy tickets and go to games. Even if they aren't as vocal.

The Rapidz were amongst the top half of the CanAm league in terms of crowds at their game. They are now called the Voyageurs when the new owner pulled the plug when (according to him) he could not come to a deal with the Conventry stadium that belongs to the city of Ottawa.

[Coup de boule]

1- The Lynx/Rapidz have failed twice and is still on life support. The Riders/Renegades same. The Senators weren't doing so well under their poor management years, but they are fine now.

2- Agreed. With good ownership Ottawa fans will buy tickets and go to games. Even if they aren't as vocal.


I don't think that the Senators were ever poorly managed. I think that their pre-Melnyk financial troubles had to do with the massive debt of the franchise: cost of arena + expansion fee + highway interchange, and no government help. Don't forget they were stuck playing in the smaller Civic Centre (capacity ~ 10,000) longer than expected while they fought to get approval and financing for the building. Add to this the huge difference in the exchange rate through the 90's, early 2000's. Attendance was never an issue, I don't think. The Firestone/Bryden ownership groups did extremely well all things considered, and the city embraced the new team as a result of their efforts. And of course, the team went bankrupt because of those factors, and Eugene got a pretty sweet deal when he scooped up the team. Not to mention the recent rise in the $.

[KLR650]

I don't think that the Senators were ever poorly managed. I think that their pre-Melnyk financial troubles had to do with the massive debt of the franchise: cost of arena + expansion fee + highway interchange, and no government help. Don't forget they were stuck playing in the smaller Civic Centre (capacity ~ 10,000) longer than expected while they fought to get approval and financing for the building. Add to this the huge difference in the exchange rate through the 90's, early 2000's. Attendance was never an issue, I don't think. The Firestone/Bryden ownership groups did extremely well all things considered, and the city embraced the new team as a result of their efforts. And of course, the team went bankrupt because of those factors, and Eugene got a pretty sweet deal when he scooped up the team. Not to mention the recent rise in the $.
So, they ran up an unsustainable amount of debt, and had little room for error so when they had to play longer in the Civic Centre and the dollar fluctuated, they went bankrupt.

I would characterize bad management as poor execution of a business plan. What happened to the Sens was that the owners had a horrible business plan. But really, what's the difference?

[KLR650]

I think a CFL team will draw 25,000 (based on previous attendance + population growth + better ownership) and an MLS team will draw 16,000 to 18,000 (better than the MLS average even though Ottawa would be the smallest city in MLS)

So there will be enough bums in the seats. The problem will be the number of corporate parters/sponsorships considering the Sens will vacuum up the lion's share.

I think CFL and MLS can co-exist, but it'll be tight.

[ChrisB]

Just for fun, I am curious about what corporatons would sponsor an MLS team.

You have to imagine Scotiabank. I cannot see any of the big developers going in (Minto? ha ha).

The Citizen or the Sun.
Allen-Vanguard
Mitel or Alcatel
IBM-Cognos
Bridgewater
Keller-Williams
Adobe
MDS-Nordion
Hydro-Ottawa

It is rather a small list. Maybe one of the restaurant or pub chains (The Barley Mow or the Works or whatever)

[Clonester]

I would think a lot of Senator's sponsors would also be sponsors for the soccer stadium. I think Melnyk or Leeder even mentioned there would be some sponsorship crossover. Don't forget the law firms. Big sponsors.

[ChrisB]

I am watching Hull-Tottenham right now, in Hull's Rugby League/Football stadium, which has a number of (admittedly) fairly unobtrusive lines across the field.

But then this is only the Premier League. Heaven forbid the MLS shares a stadium.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

I am watching Hull-Tottenham right now, in Hull's Rugby League/Football stadium, which has a number of (admittedly) fairly unobtrusive lines across the field.

But then this is only the Premier League. Heaven forbid the MLS shares a stadium.

I think MLS are right to be (sort of) insisting on soccer specific stadiums. The situation is very different in England. No-one is trying to grow the sport there.

In North America, it is important to try and make the experience of new fans as positive as possible, and while I'm sure no-one will explicitly say that they don't watch soccer here because the stadium end-zones are longer than necessary, or because there are some faint extra lines on the pitch, the experience will be better in a soccer specific stadium.

And it makes sense to make the fan experience as good as it can possibly be, doesn't it?

[ChrisB]

I think MLS are right to be (sort of) insisting on soccer specific stadiums. The situation is very different in England. No-one is trying to grow the sport there.

In North America, it is important to try and make the experience of new fans as positive as possible, and while I'm sure no-one will explicitly say that they don't watch soccer here because the stadium end-zones are longer than necessary, or because there are some faint extra lines on the pitch, the experience will be better in a soccer specific stadium.

And it makes sense to make the fan experience as good as it can possibly be, doesn't it?

Maybe I am just bitter because I am a Spurs fan. It is our natural state of being. Except in late-july, when we are convinced we will win the title.

Speaking of soccer in Ottawa, I will be at the Georgetown Pub on Sunday in my lucky Spurs Holsten jersey. I wore it for their last two cup victories, and was wearing my other jersey for their cup loss.

[Ottawa MLS Fan]

Speaking of soccer in Ottawa, I will be at the Georgetown Pub on Sunday in my lucky Spurs Holsten jersey. I wore it for their last two cup victories, and was wearing my other jersey for their cup loss.

Hmmm, maybe this is an opportunity for the innaugural meeting of the Ottawa MLS Supporters Club? Anybody else interested?