overrated XI

[Clinical Striker redded]

---Wayne Rooney---F.Torres---
--------Steven Gerrard------
-------Barry----Carrick----
----------Yaye Toure------
Evra---John Terry--Rio---Gary Neville
------------Reina------------------

[WhiteBlood]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha :D

[Teso Dos Bichos]

To salvage this thread...

--------- Adebayor
- Robben - Gerrard - Messi
------ Iniesta - Fabregas
Clichy - Terry - Puyol - Alves
----------- Reina


Reina - Too many bad mistakes to mention, top 5-10 and nothing more.
Clichy - Solid but not great at anything. Poor positioning and decisions.
Terry - Several weakness and suspect temperament. Free ride due to captaincy.
Puyol - Terry with hair
Alves - Not complete or the best around. He should thank Poulsen for his big move.
Iniesta - Search for any posts containing 'Iniesta' by 'phil80'.
Fabregas - Carried by Gilberto Silva, then Flamini and has struggled on his own.
Robben - Too one-footed, too selfish, too many doomed hero runs, too many injuries...
Gerrard - Tactically and positionally indisciplined. Dirty player. Perpetual diver.
Messi - See the thread.
Adebayor - Only one good season. The new Drogba in that regard.

[BocaFan]

To salvage this thread...

--------- Adebayor
- Robben - Gerrard - Messi
------ Iniesta - Fabregas
Clichy - Terry - Puyol - Alves
----------- Reina


Reina - Too many bad mistakes to mention, top 5-10 and nothing more.
Clichy - Solid but not great at anything. Poor positioning and decisions.
Terry - Several weakness and suspect temperament. Free ride due to captaincy.
Puyol - Terry with hair
Alves - Not complete or the best around. He should thank Poulsen for his big move.
Iniesta - Search for any posts containing 'Iniesta' by 'phil80'.
Fabregas - Carried by Gilberto Silva, then Flamini and has struggled on his own.
Robben - Too one-footed, too selfish, too many doomed hero runs, too many injuries...
Gerrard - Tactically and positionally indisciplined. Dirty player. Perpetual diver.
Messi - See the thread.
Adebayor - Only one good season. The new Drogba in that regard.

I'm not sure you know what "overrated" means.

Look at your comments next to Alves and Reina in particular. Nobody thinks Alves is a complete defender. Very few if anyone thinks Reina is top 3.

For the others : you're merely pointing-out some weaknesses that people are all fully aware of (mostly for players on teams that you hate).

[Dr. Know]

To salvage this thread...

--------- Adebayor
- Robben - Gerrard - Messi
------ Iniesta - Fabregas
Clichy - Terry - Puyol - Alves
----------- Reina


Reina - Too many bad mistakes to mention, top 5-10 and nothing more.
Clichy - Solid but not great at anything. Poor positioning and decisions.
Terry - Several weakness and suspect temperament. Free ride due to captaincy.
Puyol - Terry with hair
Alves - Not complete or the best around. He should thank Poulsen for his big move.
Iniesta - Search for any posts containing 'Iniesta' by 'phil80'.
Fabregas - Carried by Gilberto Silva, then Flamini and has struggled on his own.
Robben - Too one-footed, too selfish, too many doomed hero runs, too many injuries...
Gerrard - Tactically and positionally indisciplined. Dirty player. Perpetual diver.
Messi - See the thread.
Adebayor - Only one good season. The new Drogba in that regard.

Hilarious from someone who puts CRonaldo in an all time starting 11.

4 players from what has clearly been the best team in Europe this season. Even more hilarious.

[BocaFan]

------- Inzaghi ------ Toni
- Robinho- Fabregas- Lampard-- Beckham
A.Cole- Materrazzi- Vidic- Belletti
----------- Cech


Lampard: Somehow considered Gerrard’s equal despite lacking his shot, vision, versatility and overall leadership.
Beckham: Mired in a six-year slump, yet still rated by many.
Cole: Not really good at anything. Has one goal in 4 years despite being considered a threat offensively. Got overhyped by shutting-down Ronaldo a few times I'm guessing.
Inzaghi: Used to be amazing but time for people to stop rating him as he’s not even world top 25 at his position ATM.
Toni : Has he ever scored a big goal?
Belletti: Presumably bouncing around big clubs because he’s … Brasilian? Can’t think of any other reason.
Fabregas: See Teso’s post.
Cech: Always assumed to be world-class because he was bought by Roman. A solid ‘keeper but never top 3.
Robinho: Compared to Messi while at Madrid despite taking years adjusting to La Liga. Possesses a good step-over though.
Vidic: Being part of the best CB pairing in the world doesn’t mean you’re the world’s #2 CB. Get a grip fanboys!
Materrazzi: Thanks Zidane for making a bench-player world renowned!

[Clinical Striker redded]

I tend to like Teso's overrated XI overall. Puyol is an excellent pick. As is Fabregas who get overrated to ridiculous extends by his fanboys mainly.

Oh and it's no wonder someone here can't spell the name of a world class legendary decisive world cup winning CB properly. Bar that It's a nice pick.

[KumarsS]

Can't be bothered to come up with a lineup, here's a few off the top of my head:

Sneijder - Ineffective when not given a free role in the center.
Gerrard - See Teso's post.
Sergio Ramos - Decent going forward, oblivious on defense. Bosingwa x10.
Adebayor - Doesn't score.

[LosMerengues89]

I'm not even going to bother with the Ramos comment, but I will about the Sneijder comment.

Just because a player doesn't perform as well when not in his preferred position, he is overrated? Maybe, if the player is constantly hyped about his versatility, such as a player like Gerrard, but Sneijder isn't. I'm sure if you stuck Lampard out on the left wing, you would get similar results.

I'm not sure Sneijder is that highly rated at all. He had some fair praise during the Euro, but I've not seen too many 'World XI's' with Sneijder.

[Joep]

Teso, I generally appreciate your posting, but this XI of yours is too much. Its just dripping with dislike for particular teams, rather than these players actually being overrated.

I wasnt going to do this but this is annoying me a wee bit too much:

Reina - Too many bad mistakes to mention, top 5-10 and nothing more.
Exactly where his rated by virtually everone. So how is he overrated?
Clichy - Solid but not great at anything. Poor positioning and decisions.
Nobdoy says he is, not generally regarded as one of the better backs, part of a backline that even Arsenal fans admit is suspect.
Terry - Several weakness and suspect temperament. Free ride due to captaincy.
When you say somebody has several weaknesses, you might want to actually point them out in order to avoid coming of a little high and mighty. Terry has his faults, for sure, just like Puyol. But their positves outweigh their negatives and that consideration makes them among the best at their position
Puyol - Terry with hair.
Exactly. so see above.
Alves - Not complete or the best around. He should thank Poulsen for his big move.
Did you see Barca - Sporting last weekend? He is not complete, but every media outlet acknowledges that he is basically more of an attacking player than a defender, so he is never mistaken for 'complete' in the first place. Not the best around? He changed the entire dynamic of Barcelona. He is relentless, talented, a dangerous crosses. Name me one RB who has all of those qualities to the extent Dani Alves has.
Iniesta - Search for any posts containing 'Iniesta' by 'phil80'.
Im sorry, was this thread about people who are overrated by phil80 or by general consensus? I havent seen any of phils post on Iniesta, But I think almost everyone can except that Iniesta is a very talented, young midfielder in the Barcelona mold. That means he is good with the ball at his feet, a good passer and he can turn and leave an opponent on a dime. It also means he's not a good tackler, not a very physical player but put him in a team that plays posession and he's a very valuable asset.
Fabregas - Carried by Gilberto Silva, then Flamini and has struggled on his own.
Again, even Arsenal fans admit their midfield needs someone like that to flourish rigth now. Given the proper support, Fabregas can be effective. Nobody claims he can do everything on his own.
Robben - Too one-footed, too selfish, too many doomed hero runs, too many injuries...
Everybbody knows you cant build a team around him because of his injuries, his presence is too inconsistent. But when fit, He has amazing close control, despite one footedness can play on either wing and has been incredibly important for both Madrid and, at one point, Chelsea.
Gerrard - Tactically and positionally indisciplined. Dirty player. Perpetual diver.
I tend to agree, but like with Puyol and Terry, you only look at his negative qualities. but fail to see that those are acknowledged but forgiven because of what he brings to a club outweighs his tactical and positional lack of discipline; mentality, a knack for scoring very important goals out of nothing and leadership.
Messi - See the thread.
Very obviously among the best in the world right now, meaning there will always be an absolutely futile and subjective discussion as to who is the best player in the world, which makes it perfectly normal some people go for him yet you seem to think that disagreement between you and a lot of people seems to stem from them overrating Messi, rather than both camps having opinions that are club-bound and will therefor never change. Pathetic to even list, Teso.
Adebayor - Only one good season. The new Drogba in that regard.
Or just a very good player if given creative support from midfield and the wings. which he currently isnt.

[Teso Dos Bichos]

I'm not sure you know what "overrated" means.

Look at your comments next to Alves and Reina in particular. Nobody thinks Alves is a complete defender. Very few if anyone thinks Reina is top 3.

For the others : you're merely pointing-out some weaknesses that people are all fully aware of (mostly for players on teams that you hate).

You obviously do not frequent the same discussions as I do.

Hilarious from someone who puts CRonaldo in an all time starting 11.

4 players from what has clearly been the best team in Europe this season. Even more hilarious.

Your post merely confirms what I mean.


Beckham: Mired in a six-year slump, yet still rated by many.
Cole: Not really good at anything. Has one goal in 4 years despite being considered a threat offensively. Got overhyped by shutting-down Ronaldo a few times I'm guessing.
Cech: Always assumed to be world-class because he was bought by Roman. A solid ‘keeper but never top 3.
Vidic: Being part of the best CB pairing in the world doesn’t mean you’re the world’s #2 CB. Get a grip fanboys!
Materrazzi: Thanks Zidane for making a bench-player world renowned!

Beckham was still making an impact despite never reaching the heights he used to. England would have struggled without him in the WC and he is currently doing a good job for Milan. He gets underrated by those who refuse to acknowledge what he does bring to a team. This is coming from someone who hates the guy. You need to remember Cole during his time at Arsenal as opposed to when Jose clipped his wings and restricted him to being a stay-at-home full-back. He was getting back to his best under Scolari. Cech was a very good keeper pre-injury. I have no problem with people putting him third overall during that time period. Post-injury he is 5-10 at best. Vidic is a very good central defender who has more than proven himself for club and country, even in the absence of Ferdinand. If you personally do not consider him to be the second best central defender in the world then so be it. He is at least top five. Many actually rate him above Ferdinand. Matrix was always a good stopper and generally underrated by those who do not watch Serie A. With that in mind I am somewhat perplexed by your inclusion of him.

Teso, I generally appreciate your posting, but this XI of yours is too much. Its just dripping with dislike for particular teams, rather than these players actually being overrated.

I wasnt going to do this but this is annoying me a wee bit too much:


Exactly where his rated by virtually everone. So how is he overrated?

Nobdoy says he is, not generally regarded as one of the better backs, part of a backline that even Arsenal fans admit is suspect.

When you say somebody has several weaknesses, you might want to actually point them out in order to avoid coming of a little high and mighty. Terry has his faults, for sure, just like Puyol. But their positves outweigh their negatives and that consideration makes them among the best at their position

Exactly. so see above.

Did you see Barca - Sporting last weekend? He is not complete, but every media outlet acknowledges that he is basically more of an attacking player than a defender, so he is never mistaken for 'complete' in the first place. Not the best around? He changed the entire dynamic of Barcelona. He is relentless, talented, a dangerous crosses. Name me one RB who has all of those qualities to the extent Dani Alves has.

I do not consider it a dislike for any particular side but merely a reflection of the discussions and fans I tend to encounter. I'm glad you have bothered to respond. Take a look at the numerous threads dealing with keepers for evidence of people overrating Reina. Granted it is mainly Liverpool fans but he is the one keeper who is consistently put in an inflated position. Therefore he is overrated amongst his peers. You need to pick a keeper and he is the one that stands out. Arsenal generally do think Clichy is all that and many have stated that he is the best left-back in the Premiership and should be starting for France. It is only this season that some had started to question him. I frequent the Arsenal board a lot and, like Reina, he is the left-back that stands out as being overrated. Is Terry (prone to rash tackles, hand balls, struggles against pace/skill and often suspect positioning which forced him into his last ditch antics) really one of the very best stoppers around or is he overrated based on nationality, leadership and style of play? While I think he is very good I do not consider him to be the best stopper in the league nor vastly superior to Alex. For him to consistently be rated as the best this or that and included in every list/team is clearly a sign of him being overrated. My complaints with Puyol are similar. The fundamental point is that Alves is not a right-back and his defending is a clear weakness that is there to be exploited. I have seen so much rubbish in regard to him posted simply because of Barcelona's form and his part in it. I do not consider him to have changed the dynamic of Barcelona. He is merely an offensive upgrade on Zambrotta/Belletti. I also do not consider him to be above Maicon.

Im sorry, was this thread about people who are overrated by phil80 or by general consensus? I havent seen any of phils post on Iniesta, But I think almost everyone can except that Iniesta is a very talented, young midfielder in the Barcelona mold. That means he is good with the ball at his feet, a good passer and he can turn and leave an opponent on a dime. It also means he's not a good tackler, not a very physical player but put him in a team that plays posession and he's a very valuable asset.

Again, even Arsenal fans admit their midfield needs someone like that to flourish rigth now. Given the proper support, Fabregas can be effective. Nobody claims he can do everything on his own.

I tend to agree, but like with Puyol and Terry, you only look at his negative qualities. but fail to see that those are acknowledged but forgiven because of what he brings to a club outweighs his tactical and positional lack of discipline; mentality, a knack for scoring very important goals out of nothing and leadership.

I consider Iniesta to be a very good utility player while others call him a complete midfielder. They are taking it too far. Arsenal fans generally think Fabregas was their best player over the last two full seasons, was better than Scholes in his pomp and has x, y and z to his game. None is true. While I generally agree with your assessment of Gerrard you are being reasonable and looking only at his positives. Others do not while I consider everything.

Everybbody knows you cant build a team around him because of his injuries, his presence is too inconsistent. But when fit, He has amazing close control, despite one footedness can play on either wing and has been incredibly important for both Madrid and, at one point, Chelsea.

Very obviously among the best in the world right now, meaning there will always be an absolutely futile and subjective discussion as to who is the best player in the world, which makes it perfectly normal some people go for him yet you seem to think that disagreement between you and a lot of people seems to stem from them overrating Messi, rather than both camps having opinions that are club-bound and will therefor never change. Pathetic to even list, Teso.

Or just a very good player if given creative support from midfield and the wings. which he currently isnt.

For Robben what I posted about Gerrard applies. If you wish to discuss Messi I would advise you to go to the relevant thread. Any objective read of said thread will highlight that Messi not only merits a place in this XI but should probably also be captain. Adebayor is a good player but needs to do far, far more to merit the standing he has been given in certain quarters. All of the talk during the summer confirms this.

I think our disagreements stems from me looking at negatives while you prefer to consider the positives. Our XI's will also depend heavily on who we interact with and the media we are exposed to. It is why we need to justify our selections and I believe I have done so. What is your overrated XI btw?

[BocaFan]

Teso, You're entire post basically says "player X is overrated by fans of player X's team".

I got news for you: pretty much every player is overrated by fans of that team.

Regarding my overrated XI, after yesterday's match I've decided to make Luca Toni my captain. :D

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It involves fans of teams, posts in various polls/discussions/XI's, player inclusion in awards/XI's, etc.

[O Fenômeno]

Messi has been the best player this season...

Fail on Teso's part..

[Teso Dos Bichos]

It is an irrelevance.

[Dr. Know]

Your post merely confirms what I mean.


You claim Iniesta is overrated because of phil's posts. Why don't you mention yourself when it comes to Ronaldo since it's obviously beyond ridiculous to put him in an all time best XI right now like you did.

[BocaFan]

It involves fans of teams, posts in various polls/discussions/XI's, player inclusion in awards/XI's, etc.

The first two things in that list are essentially the same thing since the discussions on best XI's, polls, etc are going to usually involve biased fans.

For instance, you concluded "Reina is overrated by his peers" based on a few discussions with Liverpool fans. That doesn't make Reina overrated in general. It makes him overrated by Liverpool fans (at best). Just like Ronaldo is overrated by Man Utd fans (I direct you to the Ronaldo v Messi thread).

[Joep]

I get most of your arguments but like Napoli supporter said, most of what you say is a reflection of how good fans of team/nation x think their players are. those opinions are always going to be immensely skewed. I dont post or read enough here anymore to be consistently bombarded with our X player is the bees knees so maybe I am just not exposed to an awful lot of people rating these players to the extend you think theyre overrated.

I'll have a stab at a couple of players that I think are slightly overrated

GK. Neuer, Schalke.
He made some freak saves in a game against I think Villarreal, which raised his mediastock quite a bit. I saw his play in the Bundesliga two weeks prior to it and he's incredibly insecure on high balls.

CB Lucio, Bayern
Makes poorly timed runs when his team doesnt need it, not very mobile, doesnt position well. Bayern never really made the leap with him, have they?

CB Maldini, Milan
As much as it pains me to say because I love him to bits, but its difficult reading that 'he's still performing up with the best of them at age 40' because he isnt. He's an all timer, my favorite defender and someone who could very clearly make a case for best defender to play the game but his play the last years has been inconsistent. He's making mistakes he never would have made a few years ago.

CB Terry, Chelsea.
My problem with him is that a lot of people still automatically rate him because of the period when Chelsea was damn near invincible a couple of years ago. Makes the most of it despite his many limitations, but limitations that the english-friendly dutch media are always very careful to ignore. Doesnt seem as solid without that aura of invincibility.

Phoo...i'll finish this later

[Teso Dos Bichos]

You claim Iniesta is overrated because of phil's posts. Why don't you mention yourself when it comes to Ronaldo since it's obviously beyond ridiculous to put him in an all time best XI right now like you did.

A simple search will provide my justification during a discussion involving phil and I. It was also briefly explained it in a subsequent post in this very thread. Would you care to explain how being part of the form team instantly makes everyone the best or how being the current form player instantly prevents you from being overrated? While you are at it I challenge you to put your own XI up for scrutiny as opposed to whining about my one. Remember your justification.

The first two things in that list are essentially the same thing since the discussions on best XI's, polls, etc are going to usually involve biased fans.

For instance, you concluded "Reina is overrated by his peers" based on a few discussions with Liverpool fans. That doesn't make Reina overrated in general. It makes him overrated by Liverpool fans (at best). Just like Ronaldo is overrated by Man Utd fans (I direct you to the Ronaldo v Messi thread).

When you have fans of a particular player/club constantly promoting their favourite in addition to certain elements of the media doing the same (all ignoring the flaws of a player or any errors) then eventually some of it sticks. The reverse is also true. There is a reason why certain players are always involved in discussions (polls, XI's, etc) even without (or with very few) of their fans taking part. The supposed standing of a player must come from something. It is not as simple as trying to incorrectly claim that players are only overrated by fans of their team. You obviously get some examples of it happening but generally there is a lot more involved. I notice you also completely ignored what I said to Joep about our player selections being heavily dependent on who we interact with and the media we are exposed to.

[KumarsS]

I'm not even going to bother with the Ramos comment

Please, do. As far as I'm concerned the myth of Ramos' defensive qualities has been thoroughly debunked.

Just because a player doesn't perform as well when not in his preferred position, he is overrated? Maybe, if the player is constantly hyped about his versatility, such as a player like Gerrard, but Sneijder isn't. I'm sure if you stuck Lampard out on the left wing, you would get similar results.

That's true, but if you paired Lampard with just one other CM, say, Mikel or Gareth Barry, he would do almost if not just as well.

Sneijder doesn't seem to have the tactical discipline to operate without the support of two holding CMs, yet lacks the goal return to justify a forward role.