Patience

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by appooOnU
But another reason might be this: Americans are faster. I'm pretty sure that Americans are the fastest atheletes in the world (look at the Summer Olympics and Track and Field). My guess is that Americans soccer fans this our most exciting players (not best, that would goto John O'Brien) are DaMarcus Beasley, Landon Donovan, Josh Wolff, and Clint Mathis. With the exception of Mathis, all the players have speed to burn. Now you look at some of the best that Europe would have to offer, Figo, Zidane, Beckham, Raul, and Owen. Only Owen has the spped to match our guys. I think its just a thing of where our players are more athletic than skillful and its the other way around in Europe. And that could result in a "faster" game. Not better, just faster.

Get a grip of yourself.

Re-read what you've written here.

It's just misinformed on so many levels it's not funny.

[copaantl98]

Originally posted by lion



Yeah, and the NHL is also so slow with no back and forth action.

If the Premier League has more back and forth action than MLS, then you must think baseball is fast.

[lion]

Originally posted by copaantl98


If the Premier League has more back and forth action than MLS, then you must think baseball is fast.


Yes, I firmly believe that the average EPL game is faster and has more back and forth action than does the average MLS game.

As for baseball, just "fuggedaboutit."

[lion]

Originally posted by maczebus


Get a grip of yourself.

Re-read what you've written here.

It's just misinformed on so many levels it's not funny.




Maczebus,

Excessive nationalistic pride sometimes does that to people (as in the post above).

[copaantl98]

Originally posted by lion



Yes, I firmly believe that the average EPL game is faster and has more back and forth action than does the average MLS game.

As for baseball, just "fuggedaboutit."

Death to baseball.

[appoo]

Originally posted by maczebus


Get a grip of yourself.

Re-read what you've written here.

It's just misinformed on so many levels it's not funny.

huh? what gives. Year in and year out American track atheletes prove themselves to be the fastest in the world. We hold the World Record for the 100, 200 and 400. The sprints.
2000 Olympics:
100m Dash - Maurice Green. USA
110m Hurdles - Silver and Bronze, USA
400m Hurdles - Gold,USA
400m - Gold, Silver - USA
4 X 1 - Gold, USA
4 x 4 - Gold, USA

What more do you want?? Americans are the fastest in the world, they proved it. And that definatly shows in our sports. We're the best at basketball because of our superior athletecism. In soccer, speed doesn't matter as much, but that doesn't mean that we aren't fairly fast. If you think I am saying our fastest soccer players are better than Zidane, Owen, Figo, Beckham, and Raul thats just wrong. I don't think that at all. They are waaay more skillful. I just suggested that MLS plays with more speed rather than skill. In Europe they play with more skill than speed. I don't know why this is so misinformed.

[dcc134]

Originally posted by appooOnU


huh? what gives. Year in and year out American track atheletes prove themselves to be the fastest in the world. We hold the World Record for the 100, 200 and 400. The sprints.
2000 Olympics:
100m Dash - Maurice Green. USA
110m Hurdles - Silver and Bronze, USA
400m Hurdles - Gold,USA
400m - Gold, Silver - USA
4 X 1 - Gold, USA
4 x 4 - Gold, USA

What more do you want?? Americans are the fastest in the world, they proved it. And that definatly shows in our sports. We're the best at basketball because of our superior athletecism. In soccer, speed doesn't matter as much, but that doesn't mean that we aren't fairly fast. If you think I am saying our fastest soccer players are better than Zidane, Owen, Figo, Beckham, and Raul thats just wrong. I don't think that at all. They are waaay more skillful. I just suggested that MLS plays with more speed rather than skill. In Europe they play with more skill than speed. I don't know why this is so misinformed.


Americans have the best track and field program, with the most depth. That doesn't to follow that "americans are faster" in all other sports they play. There are just as many fast players in Europe as there are in the US, its just they typically have more skill, so they don't have to run full speed all the time to be effective, like many americans do.

[schmuckatelli]

With respect to the original post, being a USA soccer supporter is sort of like the old Groucho Marx joke: "I'd never want to join a club that would have a guy like me for a member." We've been so bad and sneered at for so long it's kind of become just part of the landscape.

The argument about European vs. US speed and skill is reminescent of another well-worn joke about the US, instead of melding European speed with South American flair and skill, tends toward mixing European flair and skill with South American speed!

Anyway, the original poster's points are well taken. But we're a culture ingrained in the bottom line, sooner rather than later. If we invest today, we'd better see a return in the next quarter. We tend to set unrealistically high expectations like MLS being profitable in 5 years, or the US winning the World Cup in 2010. 'Course, ambition (even if unrealistic) is a large part of what makes the US go.

[appoo]

Originally posted by dcc134



Americans have the best track and field program, with the most depth. That doesn't to follow that "americans are faster" in all other sports they play. There are just as many fast players in Europe as there are in the US, its just they typically have more skill, so they don't have to run full speed all the time to be effective, like many americans do.

an arguement can be made for that because the fastest atheletes don't always just run track. Jeff Capel was one of the American's on the Track team for Team USA in the Olympics. He also played football for the Gators. More often than not, Atheltes will just say screw you track and stick to their own sport. But your second point..thats what I was trying gto get at. Thanks for seeing logic and reason

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by dcc134



Americans have the best track and field program, with the most depth. That doesn't to follow that "americans are faster" in all other sports they play. There are just as many fast players in Europe as there are in the US, its just they typically have more skill, so they don't have to run full speed all the time to be effective, like many americans do.

Thanks for making my job a little less taxing.

It needed saying.

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by appooOnU


huh? what gives. Year in and year out American track atheletes prove themselves to be the fastest in the world. We hold the World Record for the 100, 200 and 400. The sprints.
2000 Olympics:
100m Dash - Maurice Green. USA
110m Hurdles - Silver and Bronze, USA
400m Hurdles - Gold,USA
400m - Gold, Silver - USA
4 X 1 - Gold, USA
4 x 4 - Gold, USA

What more do you want?? Americans are the fastest in the world, they proved it. And that definatly shows in our sports. We're the best at basketball because of our superior athletecism. In soccer, speed doesn't matter as much, but that doesn't mean that we aren't fairly fast. If you think I am saying our fastest soccer players are better than Zidane, Owen, Figo, Beckham, and Raul thats just wrong. I don't think that at all. They are waaay more skillful. I just suggested that MLS plays with more speed rather than skill. In Europe they play with more skill than speed. I don't know why this is so misinformed.

What more do I want? You've given me a list of sprinting winners at the Olympics and I'm meant to take that as the gauge by which the rest of the US sporting population is to be measured.

Ok - I won't repeat what others have said regarding the speed of one type of sportsman accurately reflecting the general makeup of every other sportsman from that country.
What you were almost touching on is genetics.

Yes you might have the fastest runners over the 100m (though if I re-call correctly Greene has just been beaten by our man Chambers for the 3rd time in recent weeks - sorry nationalism alert!) 200m, 400m, adding the relays is a bit pointless as it virtually stands to reason etc etc.
Great - but not at 800m, 1500m, 3000m steeplechase, 5000m, 10,000m or marathon. Now I don't know if you know how far one has to travel in an average football match. I'll give you a clue - it's more than 100/200/400 metres. The last stat I saw to this effect was Beckham covering around 9 (that's NINE) miles in an average Utd. game.
If you think that your sprinters short course running ability makes the MLS players able to run around at similar speeds for 90 minutes then good luck to you. Have you noticed how long it takes these athletes to recover after running their respective races, 1 minute running (max), 5 minutes to recover. I don't care what you say, that does not make for a fast moving game. The players would be so knackered you'd be back to South American pace before you knew it.

I understand your point about not saying MLS players are better than Euro players, just faster.
But you're just downright wrong.
You're comparing the wrong players. There's hundreds of players in Europe that could match the pace of the examples you gave. The examples of European players that are not up to scratch (in your opinion) that you gave, are the best players in Europe. Not necessarily the fastest. Beckham's not fantastically fast - he doesn't need to be. George Best was positively sluggish - he didn't need to be fast. Same argument goes for Zidane and Figo etc.
There's more than enough players in English football (hell even just in the EPL) capable of running 10 second 100m, if that's what teams want. Most of them don't though.

Don't use the 'we're the best a basketball so that proves we have the best athletes' argument. Nowhere else in the world takes the game as seriously as the US does. It's far more founded in the US than anywhere else so of course they have the best players. By that measure we have the best athletes because our footballers are world leaders.

I'm not refuting your suggestion that MLS teams play more with speed than skill (Hey, I've seen a few games) and that European teams concentrate more on skill than speed. But to suggest:
1 - That the higher level of skill in Europe comes at a premium, which is no-one can run as fast as MLS players - is a bit dodgy.
2 - That the EPL (note I'm not saying Euro leagues) is of a slower pace (overall, not selected games to make one's point) than MLS - is a bit dodgy.
3 - That the percieved super speed of MLS players is in any way related to US sprinters success - is a bit dodgy.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by JMoney418
Yes..good post. Funny though...cause theres a pizza shop down by where I work, and me and the pizza guy Joe (from Naples) constantly talk soccer. Yesterday we began talking about MLS and he stated how much he liked it. He said how soccer was soccer and how he appreciated it because it was different from the European game. And its true...while we all love watching ManU and Arsenal going at it in a highly technical affair....MLS is so american in that its quicker, and sometimes, the play is even better. I guess it all depends on what you like, but MLS is a direct result of the way our kids play soccer...fast and attacking.

Wow! This is a great post. Our Eurosnobs are not as common as we thought.

Just think of what American football (pointy thing) is in Europe. We don't even know one single player, or if it really exists. Your posts are a breath of fresh air.

Particularly your opinion of style. It's great you appreciate the difference, rather than mock it. Welcome...please post more often. This site gets rather boring and juvenile. :)

[BWMcTell]

Originally posted by JMoney418
Yes..good post. Funny though...cause theres a pizza shop down by where I work, and me and the pizza guy Joe (from Naples) constantly talk soccer. Yesterday we began talking about MLS and he stated how much he liked it. He said how soccer was soccer and how he appreciated it because it was different from the European game. And its true...while we all love watching ManU and Arsenal going at it in a highly technical affair....MLS is so american in that its quicker, and sometimes, the play is even better. I guess it all depends on what you like, but MLS is a direct result of the way our kids play soccer...fast and attacking.

He meant Naples, Florida people. Nice place, good golf.

In all seriousness, I had the same type of conversation with a friend of mine yesterday. He said, "How can you watch MLS when the talent in other leagues is so much better"
I didnt try to argue that MLS had the best talent or anything like that because its just futile. All I could really say is that I watch because the players have improved year after year and that I actually enjoy watching players from an American league. Anyone can watch the best leagues in the world for entertainment value. But it takes a true fan to watch because you want to see Mathis do the "fish dance."

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by Elizabeth


Just think of what American football (pointy thing) is in Europe. We don't even know one single player, or if it really exists.


I'm sure you do know a few players over here.
It's full of 'not-good-enough-for-NFL' or 'too-old-for-NFL' players. And you don't get to hear of it's because there's bugger all interest in it over here, let alone in the US.
We don't take much notice of MLS either, mainly because we've got a league far more worth watching (if you're after speed and skill)

I can send you a few tapes full of my school boy team, New Longton Rovers in action. They aren't that good but they really can run fast and kick a ball occasionally - well that seems to be what you like, so I thought I'd help.

[Elizabeth]

Originally posted by maczebus


I'm sure you do know a few players over here.
It's full of 'not-good-enough-for-NFL' or 'too-for-NFL' players. And you don't get to hear of it's because there's bugger all interest in it over here, let alone in the US.
We don't take much notice of MLS either, mainly because we've got a league far more worth watching (if you're after speed and skill)

I can send you a few tapes full of my school boy team, New Longton Rovers in action. They aren't that good but they really can run fast and kick a ball occasionally - well that seems to be what you like, so I thought I'd help.

Mac...I doubt I'd recognize any names in Europe football...what do you call it there anyway? Football II?

and, no I hae to wonder why you think I prefer fast pace and pathetic skill?

Believe it or not, many of us have played soccer our entire lives, and many of us are too smart to think we can make a living at it. Some of us have professions, and chose it as a hobby. In America, dreaming to make a lot of money in soccer is unrealistic. We do, however, appreciate greatly the skill Americans have yet to achieve.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by maczebus


I'm sure you do know a few players over here.
It's full of 'not-good-enough-for-NFL' or 'too-for-NFL' players. And you don't get to hear of it's because there's bugger all interest in it over here, let alone in the US.
We don't take much notice of MLS either, mainly because we've got a league far more worth watching (if you're after speed and skill)

I can send you a few tapes full of my school boy team, New Longton Rovers in action. They aren't that good but they really can run fast and kick a ball occasionally - well that seems to be what you like, so I thought I'd help.

Look, I don't mind Europeans (continental variety) and South Americans making derogatory generalizations about the US game, but for the English to do so is a bit much. The English are known throughout the world mainly for their "workrate" (which translates as a lack of skill in the eyes of most of the rest of the world) and the EPL is only made worth watching with the inclusion of skilled foreigners to balance out the English hustle (P.S., there are of course some English players with skill who don't play like headless chickens, but this thread seems to be about gross generalizations, so when in Rome ...).

[appoo]

Originally posted by maczebus


What more do I want? You've given me a list of sprinting winners at the Olympics and I'm meant to take that as the gauge by which the rest of the US sporting population is to be measured.

Ok - I won't repeat what others have said regarding the speed of one type of sportsman accurately reflecting the general makeup of every other sportsman from that country.
What you were almost touching on is genetics.

Yes you might have the fastest runners over the 100m (though if I re-call correctly Greene has just been beaten by our man Chambers for the 3rd time in recent weeks - sorry nationalism alert!) 200m, 400m, adding the relays is a bit pointless as it virtually stands to reason etc etc.
Great - but not at 800m, 1500m, 3000m steeplechase, 5000m, 10,000m or marathon. Now I don't know if you know how far one has to travel in an average football match. I'll give you a clue - it's more than 100/200/400 metres. The last stat I saw to this effect was Beckham covering around 9 (that's NINE) miles in an average Utd. game.
If you think that your sprinters short course running ability makes the MLS players able to run around at similar speeds for 90 minutes then good luck to you. Have you noticed how long it takes these athletes to recover after running their respective races, 1 minute running (max), 5 minutes to recover. I don't care what you say, that does not make for a fast moving game. The players would be so knackered you'd be back to South American pace before you knew it.

I understand your point about not saying MLS players are better than Euro players, just faster.
But you're just downright wrong.
You're comparing the wrong players. There's hundreds of players in Europe that could match the pace of the examples you gave. The examples of European players that are not up to scratch (in your opinion) that you gave, are the best players in Europe. Not necessarily the fastest. Beckham's not fantastically fast - he doesn't need to be. George Best was positively sluggish - he didn't need to be fast. Same argument goes for Zidane and Figo etc.
There's more than enough players in English football (hell even just in the EPL) capable of running 10 second 100m, if that's what teams want. Most of them don't though.

Don't use the 'we're the best a basketball so that proves we have the best athletes' argument. Nowhere else in the world takes the game as seriously as the US does. It's far more founded in the US than anywhere else so of course they have the best players. By that measure we have the best athletes because our footballers are world leaders.

I'm not refuting your suggestion that MLS teams play more with speed than skill (Hey, I've seen a few games) and that European teams concentrate more on skill than speed. But to suggest:
1 - That the higher level of skill in Europe comes at a premium, which is no-one can run as fast as MLS players - is a bit dodgy.
2 - That the EPL (note I'm not saying Euro leagues) is of a slower pace (overall, not selected games to make one's point) than MLS - is a bit dodgy.
3 - That the percieved super speed of MLS players is in any way related to US sprinters success - is a bit dodgy.

hopefully we can continue to keep this discussion civil :)

I think agree with most of what your saying but I do think you read a little too deeply into my comments. Our American sports are all about explosive speed. Which is why I never even thought of the endurance part. An ommision on my part. moving on....the basketball part. The world plays basketball. Not really popular in England but basically everywhere else it is. The biggest difference between an American player and a European player? Athletecism. Europeans come to the NBA more skillful, and better shooters (Dirk Nowitzki) But our players are just plain better atheletes (Kobe Bryant). I didn't pick out the fastest players from the MLS and then compare them to Euro players that weren't as fast. I compared the MLS' best american players to the best plying their trade in Europe. (I guess I limited this to offensive players). LD, DMB, Wolff, and Mathis. In europe, Becks, Figo, Zidane, Owen, etc. Generally speaking our best are faster (not better, just faster). I'm sure you could find faster players than what i've listed but are they considered as good? On to your 3 points...

1)never came close to saying that. Owen is probably just as fast or faster than any of MLSers. As was Ryan Giggs in his heyday.

2)Your right on that. I'm not entirely sure that the MLS is faster. Never said that it was, I suggested it could be faster.

3)Our sprinters are an example of good American athletes. Our sports love the idea that "speed kills" I don't know where this super speed thing came from though.

[Red Card]

Originally posted by fatboy15


Good Lord, do you know how many stadiums that would be?

If we consider the continental 48 and assume it is in the shape of a rectangle 3000 miles wide, 1500 miles high, we would have 10 x 5 = 50 stadiums that are 300 miles apart horizontally and vertically.

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Look, I don't mind Europeans (continental variety) and South Americans making derogatory generalizations about the US game, but for the English to do so is a bit much. The English are known throughout the world mainly for their "workrate" (which translates as a lack of skill in the eyes of most of the rest of the world) and the EPL is only made worth watching with the inclusion of skilled foreigners to balance out the English hustle (P.S., there are of course some English players with skill who don't play like headless chickens, but this thread seems to be about gross generalizations, so when in Rome ...).

Ok, so what generalisations did I make?

I said that we don't take much notice of MLS over here because we have a league far more worth watching and it's all on our doorstep.

My response was to those posters that seem to prefer watching MLS due to the fact that it has a significant amount of speed to it's play. And indeed that MLS style of play was better than EPL due to this. I was just suggesting watching my local youth team, as it would be rather entertaining (by their own measure) to those posters.

And methinks you have some bug-bear with the English.
I'm not defending English players, merely defending the league style against statements that, in my opinion are wrong. If, in your opinion foriegn players make the league worth watching, then the league in your opinion is ok.
Surely there's some reason (other than the foriegners) why the EPL is ranked rather highly in 'the leagues to watch' table.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't watch MLS because something else is better, of course you should all do as much as possible to ensure MLS doesn't go the same way as the NASL.
I just didn't understand some people's opinions on what makes good football.

[Treetaliano]

Originally posted by Red Card


If we consider the continental 48 and assume it is in the shape of a rectangle 3000 miles wide, 1500 miles high, we would have 10 x 5 = 50 stadiums that are 300 miles apart horizontally and vertically.

And putting these stadiums in the praries of Montana and the deserts of Arizona i sure to make the league better...