Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by VFish
The Germans are divers and flops. That’s more an indictment of them than the ref.

I have no problem with the cautions that were handed out. Perhaps you’d care to cite a particular example?

Not sure what the issue with extra time is… not enough?

It seems to me that Mr. Dallas’s biggest crime is he comes across as a patronizing jerk. The little melee with Claudio and Jens (who CHEATED by pulling him on top of him, then faked like Claudio stepped on him) took 4 minutes by itself to settle. He only added on three, while the Germans were hanging on by a thread.

[Thomas Flannigan]

John Galt: Are you the "John From Atlanta" fan I met in Mexico City and DC?
THE BALL CROSSED THE LINE. This was clearer than Josh Wolff's disallowed goal against Costa Rica. I had a perfect view of that one too. Many plays, like JOB's alleged handball, I did not have a good view of.
I have not seen any footage of it from the top or side of the US goal against Germany. But we all saw it over the line, on the ground, before Kahn slipped it back in an instant.
Hugh Dallas, by the way, also reffed the Portugal-Poland game and was superb. That game had King Figo on his back, terrible rains, and a number of weird, difficult calls. Dallas called a great game.
Just my opinions.

[VFish]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
The little melee with Claudio and Jens (who CHEATED by pulling him on top of him, then faked like Claudio stepped on him) took 4 minutes by itself to settle. He only added on three, while the Germans were hanging on by a thread. Actually, it only took 2. Regardless, this is a moot point. I certainly wouldn’t base a conspiracy theory on it.

[Aidaen]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
Maradona vs. USSR, WC 1990, 1st round.

Did Diego ever NOT use his hands? =)

[Aidaen]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
John Galt: Are you the "John From Atlanta" fan I met in Mexico City and DC?
THE BALL CROSSED THE LINE. This was clearer than Josh Wolff's disallowed goal against Costa Rica. I had a perfect view of that one too. Many plays, like JOB's alleged handball, I did not have a good view of.
I have not seen any footage of it from the top or side of the US goal against Germany. But we all saw it over the line, on the ground, before Kahn slipped it back in an instant.

I have the video of it, and it does not look like the ball crossed the line. I'll see if I can post the video on some webspace and you can see what I mean.

[Aidaen]

Update - I'm using my university webspace, hopefully they don't get pissed at me.

Pretty good camera work - my only complaint is that there's no mention of ladders or needles, and the prerequisite of climbing or threading them.

http://www.msu.edu/~hatmanke/handball.mov

[Thomas Flannigan]

John Galt. Are you John from Atlanta who has long hair and wore black, not red, at both WCQs?

[dark knight]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
John Galt. Are you John from Atlanta who has long hair and wore black, not red, at both WCQs?

We have pm's for a reason.

[Chowderhead]

In 1989, after participating in the weekly Brazil versus Ireland game (which, by that time was really South America versus Europe, pero bueno), my Colombian pal, Raul, and I listened to the second half of the Colombia-Paraguay WCQ from Defensores del Chaco stadium. We sat there on the sidelines with our gear still on and all and sweated out the result. At the 90th minute the score was, I believe, 1-1. How many minutes were added? Take a guess. NINE. Paraguay then finally scored and then the ref blew the whistle three times.

I just thought that I'd share that with youse.

Coupla things. The ball never crossed the line. It should have been a PK. Dallas is an imperious wanker who deserved an elbow to the temple.

And we're just fans being fans.

[Thomas Flannigan]

Dark Night: I don't like PMs. I've asked John this question 3 or 4 times now.
The ball was over the line and that is why the American fan section exploded. We know when a shot hits the post, when it is wide and so on.

[Chowderhead]

Tommy Flans:

You don't like PMs. OK. Let me tell ya'. You are without a doubt one of my two or three favorite posters.

You, the Ghost of Bill, Appleby. Together we are the Gloom Crew.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
but then you go on to describe a "conspiracy" of the top Italian clubs...
Well, it is a fact that Colllina has been prevented from refereeing certain matches in the Serie A. That much Thomas and I agree upon. However, our reasons for explaining this are very different.

He implies that Collina had been corrupted. There's never, ever, been any evidence to even remotely suggest that this claim is true.

I, conversely, believe that the corruption is within Serie A itself. It is a fact that club's have a huge say in which referees get appointed to which matches in Italy (probably more so than any other top flight league). Similar to high-school soccer in some US states, Serie A clubs can "blackball" referees. That's what happened in Italy with Collina. He was blackballed by certain Serie A clubs, most notably Juventus. Again, this has been accepted as fact and was written about extensively when it happened last year.

I happen to believe what most mainstream news outlets reported at the time--which is that the top clubs were not happy with Collina making key decisions against their clubs (there is evidence to support this, since he did make a few such decisions that year). Thomas chooses to question Collina's integrity and imply corruption on his part, instead. For those that have seen the calls in question--I have, I can't say if Thomas has or hasn't--the actual plays on the field seem to clearly support Collina's decision, and, thus suggest that Collina was removed for more sinister reasons.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
I think Collina is fine ref and I never said he was rigging matches. I said he was accused of it. He was probably falsely accused.Ok, then disregard my above post. I only saw your response after I saw flanoverseas. Believe me, Collina's calls were correct. Juventus and other clubs weren't happy because the decisions went against them.

You know quite a bit about reffing. What did you think of Uli Schmeier's work in the US-Korea game, Mr. Dallas, Mr. Moreno, and the Arab ref in the Spain-Korea game? One bad call???? Forget the handball. Put that aside. How about the dive that led to the German goal, the cards that led to the 3 suspensions, lopping time off injury time, the endless free kicks after more dives. Dallas acted hostile to the U.S. He smiled at Kahn after the U.S. scored and yelled at the Americans.
These games were awhile again individual calls and plays (save for the really controversial ones) tend to run together from game to game.

Overall, I think Meier did well in the US/Korea game, though he certainly was intimidated somewhat (even if it was subconciously) by the crowd. The PK was dubious based on the television angles, but TV angles don't (as past WCs have proved) show everything correctly on replay. The FK for the Korea goal was, despite what American fans thought at the time, correct. Donovan tackled the Korean cleanly with his left leg but fouled him, through the calves, with his right.

As for Dallas, I just don't see all the things that many people here do insofar as his personality. There were times (no, I can't cite them offhand) that he was casually joking around with American players like he was with Kahn. I didn't get the feeling, as some have here, that Dallas was coddling the Germans and lecturing the Americans. The only thing I can fault Dallas on is the second half injury time--I agree with those that think there should have been more. In the end, quite frankly, I think Dallas is the victim of the highly tense Ranger/Celtic ties that he regularly officiates. Inevitably, they have controversy, and his name comes up often. After Collina, he's probably the second most recognized ref in the world and he gets a lot of marquee matches. Though fans of losing sides may not like him, the fact that he's the top Scottish official and received so many UEFA and FIFA appointments should say something about his officiating ability.

Anyway, as far as Ghandour (the Arab in the Spain/Korea match) I think he did fine. The two controversial--and incorrect--calls, came from his ARs, not him.

Pele and Beckenbauer all blasted Dallas, if not by name then by clear implication. Platini did not name him but it was clear he was talking about the U.S.-Germany game. Beckenbauer and Platini have a chance to lead FIFA. If they say the ref was terrible you can be pretty sure that the ref was terrible.
Just my opinions. Pele and Platini have not, nor will ever be, experts on officiating. Platini, first of all, has become a soccer politician. He'll say things (as he's done since WC98) to try to appease the masses. Pele, as has been stated earlier on this thread, is just known in general for making dumb remarks. As for Beckanbauer, the one I respect the most of the three, I just can't take his comment entirely at face-value. I think part of it was a motivating ploy for the Germans (remember, he said it before the Korea match).

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by Rowdie

I quite rightly concluded my previous post with the statement, that this is what I THINK to be the case, so I do not see how you can rip me for speculation.


As I wrote in my post, "I'm not trying to slam you personally", but I was trying to correct what you wrote -- not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of others. I apologize for the harshness of the tone.

The frustration comes from the fact that after literally several hundred posts on the subject in several different threads, some people are still misinformed about what the handball rule is.

Now you stated several incorrect things using capital letters and with bold and definitive language. This connotes that you feel strongly that you are correct in your understanding. To state at the end of the post that this is "what I think" seems to contradict the tone of the rest of the post.


Second, while it is quite obvious what the wording of the FIFA rules are (deliberate handball), it is not as obvious to determine how to come about the decision as to what is a deliberate handball. I tried to explain how I, as a ref and a player and a fan, perceive handballs in general and that specific handball. That is the method I use to determine what is and what is not deliberate. You can preach on what you believe to be misconceptions, but the truth of the matter is this, the game is directed by one man's perceptions of events with the rulebook as a guideline to hopefully base those perceptions in fact.


No, the truth of the matter is that you are now trying to re-write what you posted before to cover up your false statements.

You said the following:

First of all, intent only plays a part in SOME, not all, handballs.


No, intent is the only criteria in any and all handball decisions. It plays a part in every decision, not just some decisions.

Next you wrote:

First off, in almost every handball situation, barring just a very few exceptions(Maradona's HofG the most glaring) players do not intend to hit the ball with their hands. Most players have it either played from an opposing players shot or kick into their hand/arm, or the ball takes a wierd bounce and strikes their hand. Yet many of these unintentional handballs are still called. Why? BECAUSE INTENT ONLY MATTERS IF IT DOES NOT GIVE THE FOULING TEAM THE ADVANTAGE.


No, intent matters all the time. And that's all that matters.


IF, though, the player gives himself, or his team, an advantage by playing the ball with his hand, WHETHER INTENTIONAL OR NOT, it IS a handball. No question about that exists in the FIFA rulebook.


Advantage gained has no role in the decision making process. Advantage gained is never a consideration.


Perhaps you, like many people, fall into the trap of reading the rule for what it is without trying to understand that a lot is left to be undecided. My logic may be flawed, but at least I drove at some sort of answer for the reason that the call was not made.


It's not your logic that's flawed, it's your facts.
I don't fall into any traps. Only intentional handballs are called. That is the rule. What IS subjective is what is intentional and what is not.
This was (forgive the pun) done intentionally by FIFA because there are too many possible situations to enumerate. The referee must use
his best judgement to make the call, and FIFA gives him guidelines to make the job easier.

The Laws of the Game are not the only FIFA publication, nor are they the only source of information for referees. The handball rule is often discussed in books, newsletters, coaching clinics, etc., as well as amongst referees.


Speculation is all that any of us, including you and Massref, etc. are doing anyway because we know neither what was in the head of Hugh Dallas nor Torsten Frings.

Of course we don't know what was in their heads. Nor do we pretend to. But we do know what the rules are. I stated before that I have no idea what Dallas was thinking. As for Frings, I don't read intent by reading his mind. I read his actions. I read them as FIFA has instructed me to read them. That is:

1) hand to ball?
2) unusual hand position?
3) could the player have moved his hand out of the way?

If any are true, then the handball is deemed to be intentional.

#2 is very subjective (although even #1 can be),
which is one reason why there is often disagreement about these calls.

As I have stated many times before, this was a subjective call that could have gone either way. FWIW, I would not have called a handball. However, I can see how an "unusual hand position" argument could be made here. In the video posted above, Frings has his left arm close to his torso. Before the ball hits him, and before it rebounds off Khan, he moves his left arm back partially behind him, but the ball still manages to hit him on the rebound off Khan. This is a terribly unfortunate incident, as it looks as though if Frings had put his hand totally behind his back, this would not have occurred. Still, it's hard for me to see any intent in his action. If anything it shows that he knew he should be careful of his hand sticking out. He moved it back long before it was necessary, but it hit his hand anyway. It's also clear that the ball did not cross the line, but the reason it did not was because of Frings' hand. Very, very unfortunate incident, and very tough to call intentional, in my opinion. Frings is not required to put his arm totally behind his back. However, it certainly would have helped in this case. It is commonplace for players to do this to remove all doubt. It's a shame that Frings didn't do it on this occasion.

On the other hand, there is no question that Dallas cheated the US on at least 2 minutes of stoppage time. And from replays I've seen, the first Donovan offside was a bad call. Dallas also penalized the wrong player on the Reyna incident.

[Thomas Flannigan]

MassRef: I fail to see your logic. You claim that Collina's ban from top matches by Series A means that the league officials are corrupt and he is not. On the other hand, FIFA putting Dallas in big matches means that he is good. These are contradictory positions.
It is possible that FIFA appointing a ref to a big game means that he can be influenced. Lots of good refs did not get near the elimination round games. In CONCACAF Rodolfo Sibrian and Peter Prendergast keep getting big assignments. Do you think that they are good refs?????
Are you serious about Uli Schmeir doing a good job in the U.S.-Korea game? That was one of the most shameful things I have ever seen in a sporting match. No corner kicks for the U.S., but the obligatory BS PK. Every time a Korean sneezed in the second half they got a free kick. The Koreans I talked to at Daegu Station the next day conceded that Uli had helped them quite a bit.
Donavan DID NOT foul the Korean on the play that led to the tying goal. It was shown on replay in the stadium, with Donavan lodging a rare protest. It got quiet in the stadium for a few seconds because everyone could see what a bogus call it was. Strange that FIFA came out the next day and banned replays from stadiums.
Just my opinions

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
MassRef: I fail to see your logic. You claim that Collina's ban from top matches by Series A means that the league officials are corrupt and he is not. On the other hand, FIFA putting Dallas in big matches means that he is good. These are contradictory positions.
Without taking sides, it's simply poor reasoning to say these are contradictory. It's entirely possible for Group X (Serie A) to be corrupt and Group Y (FIFA) to not be corrupt. If Group X is corrupt and bans Person A, it does not logically follow that Group Y has to be corrupt when promoting Person B.
If Mass ref said "Round apples taste good. Round oranges taste bad", your logic suggests that oranges have to taste good because they're both round, when in fact its apparent to all the world that you are comparing. . .

To repeat, I'm not taking sides on whether or not FIFA is corrupt, I'm just pointing out the fallacy of this logic.

[Thomas Flannigan]

MassRef: You are incorrect when you state that Beckenbauer made the statement "before the Korea game". I got back to Kyongju around 1 A.M. (Korean cabdrivers would not pick up foreigners in many cases) and it was already on Big Soccer. He said that it was a clear handball and should have been a PK.
Korea played Spain the next day so Beckenbauer probably thought the Germans would be playing Spain, not Korea. He didn't know Germany would be playing Korea until the next day.
Pele is not known for saying stupid things. If Platini is trying to appease the masses then most people must think the refs were either bad or crooked. You would not need to appease the masses if the masses though Hugh Dallas had done a really fine job.
One poster said that Spain, Portugal and Italy are laughingstocks because thier citizens have accused FIFA of rigging matches. World Soccer Magazine used this term, while contantly referring to "questionable" referees and also running an article, with a perfect view of the handball, on the bad referees.
I don't think most soccer fans are laughing at Spain, Italy and Portugal, but establishment press must sing the songs of the old time religion for their own selfish reaons.
Just my opinions

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
MassRef: I fail to see your logic. You claim that Collina's ban from top matches by Series A means that the league officials are corrupt and he is not. On the other hand, FIFA putting Dallas in big matches means that he is good. These are contradictory positions.
It is possible that FIFA appointing a ref to a big game means that he can be influenced. Lots of good refs did not get near the elimination round games. In CONCACAF Rodolfo Sibrian and Peter Prendergast keep getting big assignments. Do you think that they are good refs?????I don't find this contradictory. In Serie A, it's an open fact that clubs have power over referee assignments. Collina's performances, on the field, in Italian, European, and FIFA competitions have proven that his blacklisting from certain matches is unjustified. Dallas, however, in order to get where he is, has had to proven himself the best referee in Scotland, and one of the top referees in Europe. The SFA and UEFA are not exactly known as suspect organizations insofar as refereeing integrity. My point, ultimately, is that what goes on in Serie A does not correlate with what goes on elsewhere.

Also, on a separate note, it's an unfortunate fact that Jack Warner is not known as the most honest man in international soccer. His influence is widespread in refereeing circles, and it makes CONCACAF a whole different matter and oftentimes I can't comprehend some of the assignments.

No corner kicks for the U.S., but the obligatory BS PK. Every time a Korean sneezed in the second half they got a free kick. The Koreans I talked to at Degu Station the next day conceded that Uli had helped them quite a bit. Donavan DID NOT foul the Korean on the play that led to the tying goal. It was shown on replay in the stadium, with Donavan lodging a rare protest. First, last time I checked, referees didn't hand out corner kicks out of thin air. So the US had no corner kicks. More than likely, that means that they didn't win any. Maybe one of the ARs screwed one call up (sorry, but I don't remember if corner kick decisions were right from 2 months ago), but I highly doubt there was a concerted effort to deny the US a corner kick.

Secondly, trying to justify Donovan's tackle is ludicrous. The cry's heard on these boards over and over again was "he got the ball, it was clean". Sorry, but that's not the case. He makes a clean tackle with his left leg, but makes a dangerous foul tackle with his right, dragging it through the calve of the Korean. A clean tackle with one leg does not give a player free reign to scythe down his opponent with his other leg. Donovan was lucky not to see yellow, no matter how clean the initial dispossession was. And, further, if you think Donovan lodged a "rare" protest, you obviously haven't seen him play much with the Earthquakes this year--the guy protests everything and I predict that it's going to cause him to take a few foolish yellow cards in a US uniform before he smartens up.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a mult-post review and debate of refereeing decisions from 2 months ago because not only can I be certain that my memory is clear, but I don't see what purpose it serves.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
MassRef: You are incorrect when you state that Beckenbauer made the statement "before the Korea game". I got back to Kyongju around 1 A.M. (Korean cabdrivers would not pick up foreigners in many cases) and it was already on Big Soccer. He said that it was a clear handball and should have been a PK. By "before the Korea match", I meant that he said it before the WC was over. To me, and this was also said, if I remember correctly, in articles and by television commentators, it seemed to be a motivation tool, as if Beckanbauer was saying, "wake up, you almost lost to the Americans".

Pele is not known for saying stupid things.Insofar as refereeing matters, and tinkering with the Laws, I respectfully disagree.

If Platini is trying to appease the masses then most people must think the refs were either bad or crooked. You would not need to appease the masses if the masses though Hugh Dallas had done a really fine job.One look at the MLS boards on a Monday morning will blow a big hole in this logic. The 'masses' as I referred to them, always think that refereeing, on the whole, is bad. That's never going to change. Sometimes, like certain offside calls in this past WC, the criticism is justified. Oftentimes, however, it's not (the Donovan tackle in the Korea game comes to mind). For Platini to take up an "anti-referee" position in a WC with so much controversy is as predictable as a sunrise.

[Thomas Flannigan]

Donavan yells a lot in the MLS but he did not do it at the Cup.
Please! You make the Donavan tackle sound like a deliberate attempt to injure. It was a clean tackle, similar to the one Sanneh made against germany. FIFA banned stadium replays after this incident.
I have NEVER seen another soccer game where a team failed to get a single corner kick. There were at least 2 obvious corner kicks that King Uli turned into goal kicks, to the outrage of the American fans at the game.
Keep defending these practices and we will continue to get lousy refs.
My opinions.