Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

[nancyb]

Thank God we can monitor WC refs during league play now. At least we have something to talk about now. When is the next friendly? Please, we need a game.

[Tick]

Originally posted by maczebus
Again, smells a bit like typical US paranoia.

This is what I hate most about Flanigan's conspiracy theories... it gives the rest of us a bad name.

[flanoverseas]

It's not as though bribes are unknown in WC history. After Thomas brought that up, I did a search on yahoo for 'world cup bribe' and the stories go on for pages.

I did a similar search on 'NFL football'. No results except I did see one that talked about FIFA and the radical attempts that they went through in 1999 to prevent bribes.

an excerpt:
In March, a French court case revealed that Bordeaux had operated a £5million slush fund during the Eighties to help smooth their path in Europe. Not only were the services of the best ladies of the night Paris could provide secured for a nightly fee of £2,000 but three German officials received £35,000 between them before a UEFA Cup tie with Napoli in 1988. Real Madrid, the court was told, "always offeredî Rolexes to referees and linesmen.

Who's to say it didn't happen this time? There were a couple of HIGHLY suspect calls.

[Aidaen]

Originally posted by dark knight
Aidaen -

Check out the Fans and Travel section of the US forums. There used to be a thread discussing the cost of Germany (may have been deleted in the crash).

Korea was well under $3000 for me. As for how it was, if you go once, you'll vow never to miss another one.

After watching, I've vowed not to miss this next one. With the younger guys coming of age, and more and more guys playing in higher quality leagues, the potential for us to do something in WC2006 is big. ;)

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
Aidean, I think you can do the trip to Germany for around $2000, only for the first 3 games. Remember, we have to qualify for the World Cup and that weill not be easy.

Very, very true - but I want to take a very optimistic approach to this. Of course, that optimistic approach most likely will be the death of my pocketbook, but oh well. :D

Another thing - WC qualifying is going to be bloody when we face Mexico. Just a hunch.

[Thomas Flannigan]

There have been so many scandals in the soccer world about rigged and thrown games, you would need an encyclopedia to hold them all. In April, Italy banned Pierluigi Collina whom FIFA calls the world's greatest referee, from reffing important games in Italy because of some very odd calls that decided games. China had the "black whistle" scandal at the same time, where the price of bribing a ref was practically listed on the Shanghai Stock Exchange. It is literally an endless list.
Maybe Korea is the smart one after all. Get the Cup. Put absolutely no effort into promoting games other than the games Korea plays in. Sell out 4 or 5 out of the 32 games. Meanwhile FIFA has already spent or stolen the money expected from 32 sellouts.
You have leverage. If they rig games so you stay in the tournament you sell those high-priced games out as well as getting a little more buzz for other games. FIFA, desperate for money, takes care of the Korean team all the way to the semis. Sure it looks bad and half the world thinks it was fixed, but it is a risk worth taking. Korea, which had never even won a single game in the World Cup, wins game after game with the refs on their side.
Henry James wrote that Americans were the great innocents. He was right. You can be sure fans in Portugal, Spain and Italy aren't defending FIFA and ridiculing critics with Art Bell cracks.
Just my opinions

[Bajoro]

Don't dis Art Bell, who would no doubt help us uncover any alleged FIFA conspiracy:

" I have always loved sports, football in the fall, baseball in the spring, the Olympics every four years and most recently, soccer."

http://www.artbell.com/superbowl.html

:D

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
There have been so many scandals in the soccer world about rigged and thrown games, you would need an encyclopedia to hold them all. In April, Italy banned Pierluigi Collina whom FIFA calls the world's greatest referee, from reffing important games in Italy because of some very odd calls that decided games. I'm not even going to get into your other false accusations because it seems that, after reading this thread, you consistently avoid responding to people who question your alleged conspiracies.

However, this comment is so blatantly wrong, and such an affront to Collina, that it demands correcting. Collina was removed from calling important matches because, quite frankly, he has integrity and was not intimidated by the forces that be in Italian soccer. Over the course of the past few years, Collina has made some calls that has upset the brass of the top clubs (most notably Juventus). Not one of these calls, if you saw them, were "very odd". For you to claim they were 'odd', I hope that you saw them, and are just not throwing around second- or third-hand speculation. The calls were right, they just happened to not be what the bosses with the top clubs wanted. And, since you seem to like to delve into the dark underworld of backroom dealings in international soccer, you know that the top clubs' brass controls everything in Italian soccer. They even control whether or not Collina--world-renowned as the best referee on the planet--gets a certain Serie A league match or not.

[Rowdie]

Originally posted by MarioKempes


I'm not going to bother correcting all your misconceptions. Just understand that you have no earthly idea what you're talking about. Most everything you wrote is wrong. What wasn't wrong was speculation.

I'm not trying to slam you personally, but I have to correct what you wrote. I suggest you read Law 12 of the Laws of the Game. You can find them at:

http://www.fifa.com/refs/laws_E.html

You will need to have Acrobat Reader installed.
After that, pick up a book on soccer refereeing from your local library. Or do a websearch on "handball and soccer".

I quite rightly concluded my previous post with the statement, that this is what I THINK to be the case, so I do not see how you can rip me for speculation.

Second, while it is quite obvious what the wording of the FIFA rules are (deliberate handball), it is not as obvious to determine how to come about the decision as to what is a deliberate handball. I tried to explain how I, as a ref and a player and a fan, perceive handballs in general and that specific handball. That is the method I use to determine what is and what is not deliberate. You can preach on what you believe to be misconceptions, but the truth of the matter is this, the game is directed by one man's perceptions of events with the rulebook as a guideline to hopefully base those perceptions in fact.

Perhaps you, like many people, fall into the trap of reading the rule for what it is without trying to understand that a lot is left to be undecided. My logic may be flawed, but at least I drove at some sort of answer for the reason that the call was not made. Speculation is all that any of us, including you and Massref, etc. are doing anyway because we know neither what was in the head of Hugh Dallas nor Torsten Frings.

[VFish]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
...
Henry James wrote that Americans were the great innocents. He was right. You can be sure fans in Portugal, Spain and Italy aren't defending FIFA and ridiculing critics with Art Bell cracks.
Just my opinions
It was one bad call… why blow it up into a grandiose conspiracy? Every match contains calls that unjustly go against a team. Adversity is part of the game. The key is to overcome. We had chances, but we didn’t capitalize. End of story.

And thankfully the team didn’t make a big issue of this incident. While the Italians and Spaniards were rightfully upset, their post tournament sniveling has the rest of the World ridiculing them. I’d rather not be painted with the same brush.

[Thomas Flannigan]

To MassRef: Good post. I cannot answer every post here. I do not have time. Furthermore, a few moderators and others just hurl insults and I do not engage in that kind of flame war. If they are civil I try to respond.
I think Collina is fine ref and I never said he was rigging matches. I said he was accused of it. He was probably falsely accused.
You know quite a bit about reffing. What did you think of Uli Schmeier's work in the US-Korea game, Mr. Dallas, Mr. Moreno, and the Arab ref in the Spain-Korea game?
One bad call???? Forget the handball. Put that aside. How about the dive that led to the German goal, the cards that led to the 3 suspensions, lopping time off injury time, the endless free kicks after more dives. Dallas acted hostile to the U.S. He smiled at Kahn after the U.S. scored and yelled at the Americans.
Pele and Beckenbauer all blasted Dallas, if not by name then by clear implication. Platini did not name him but it was clear he was talking about the U.S.-Germany game. Beckenbauer and Platini have a chance to lead FIFA. If they say the ref was terrible you can be pretty sure that the ref was terrible.
Just my opinions.

[shades]

Sorry if somebody already pointed this out,
but I can't read this entire thread.

I'll just say that I have never seen a handball on
the goaline not result in a PK, and I doubt I ever will again.

In other words, despite what dallas said, he missed it, or he f#cked us.

cheers -
shades

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Rowdie

Speculation is all that any of us, including you and Massref, etc. are doing anyway because we know neither what was in the head of Hugh Dallas nor Torsten Frings. I make a post, without ever saying whether I agree or disagree with the call, and I get accused of speculation? Look, I have no interest in debating this call any further. Those that were on the WC boards back in July know how I feel and why I feel that way. That said, I've also said that there is some evidence to support the opposite call as well. As I clearly said in my first post on this thread:

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
The Laws are crystal clear; the foul is "deliberate handling", not "handball". If one wants to argue that Frings deliberatedly handled the ball, you have some circumstantial evidence to back you up, and you're entitled to your opinion. If one wants to argue that it wasn't intentional, there is also evidence to support that theory. It's all in the eye of the beholder on this call and, unfortunately for the US in this case, Dallas' opinion is the only one that matters. Please don't accuse me of doing something that I'm not. The only thing I'm interested in right now is correcting some blatantly false conceptions about the rules and other things. As I said, there is evidence to support your theory that it should have been a penalty. However, in your post, you were incorrect in stating that a non-deliberate handball that stops a goal is automatically a PK. Moreover, your presumptions about the role of an AR in such a situation is way off base. The roles of ARs are being increased--not decreased--around the world.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by shades
I'll just say that I have never seen a handball on
the goaline not result in a PK, and I doubt I ever will again.Maradona vs. USSR, WC 1990, 1st round.

[Rowdie]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
I make a post, without ever saying whether I agree or disagree with the call, and I get accused of speculation? Look, I have no interest in debating this call any further. Those that were on the WC boards back in July know how I feel and why I feel that way. That said, I've also said that there is some evidence to support the opposite call as well. As I clearly said in my first post on this thread:

Please don't accuse me of doing something that I'm not. The only thing I'm interested in right now is correcting some blatantly false conceptions about the rules and other things. As I said, there is evidence to support your theory that it should have been a penalty. However, in your post, you were incorrect in stating that a non-deliberate handball that stops a goal is automatically a PK. Moreover, your presumptions about the role of an AR in such a situation is way off base. The roles of ARs are being increased--not decreased--around the world.

I agree with everything you say here without cause.

But, I simply stated that we all speculate on these boards. Fact is played out on the field. It was not meant personally, although you seem to have taken it that way.

I definitely agree that the role of ARs is being increased, but I disagree that all refs necessarily increase their reliance on them, especially with regards to calls in the box. And that, on my part, is speculation based on what I still believe to occur. Do you disagree?

[Rowdie]

Originally posted by shades

I'll just say that I have never seen a handball on
the goaline not result in a PK, and I doubt I ever will again.

In

Unfortunately, you will undoubtedly see it again. Its part of the game that refs make mistakes. If they didn't we wouldn't have so much to talk about, would we?

[VFish]

The Germans are divers and flops. That’s more an indictment of them than the ref.

I have no problem with the cautions that were handed out. Perhaps you’d care to cite a particular example?

Not sure what the issue with extra time is… not enough?

It seems to me that Mr. Dallas’s biggest crime is he comes across as a patronizing jerk.

[MassachusettsRef]

Originally posted by Rowdie

I definitely agree that the role of ARs is being increased, but I disagree that all refs necessarily increase their reliance on them, especially with regards to calls in the box. And that, on my part, is speculation based on what I still believe to occur. Do you disagree? The old guard of ageing Sunday rec referees may still not be able to stomach having their authority infringed upon in the box by a meddling AR. However, at the top levels, it's no longer the case. ARs are instructed to get the call right, no matter what. The EURO 2000 semifinal, where the AR called a handling offence for a PK in golden goal OT against Portugal, is a prime example. That call would never, ever, have been made a few years ago.

Anyway, insofar as how it might apply to the Germany/USA play, let me just say that, from experience, I can tell you that beeper flags are a wonderful revolution that exponentially increase the cooperation between CRs and ARs. If Sharp, the AR on the goalline, had seen a deliberate handball, all he would have had to do is "beep" Dallas. There would have been no overt signals that showed Sharp was "taking the call away from Dallas". A "beep" from Sharp to Dallas would have caused Dallas to whistle almost immediately. Then, Sharp would have either ran upfield (signalling the ball had crossed the line for a goal) OR taken up position for a penalty kick (signalling to Dallas that there had been an intentional handball).

That being said, Sharp, obviously, didn't think the handball was intentional either, and he certainly didn't (as photo evidence supports 100%) think the ball crossed the line.

[Rowdie]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
The old guard of ageing Sunday rec referees may still not be able to stomach having their authority infringed upon in the box by a meddling AR. However, at the top levels, it's no longer the case. ARs are instructed to get the call right, no matter what. The EURO 2000 semifinal, where the AR called a handling offence for a PK in golden goal OT against Portugal, is a prime example. That call would never, ever, have been made a few years ago.

Anyway, insofar as how it might apply to the Germany/USA play, let me just say that, from experience, I can tell you that beeper flags are a wonderful revolution that exponentially increase the cooperation between CRs and ARs. If Sharp, the AR on the goalline, had seen a deliberate handball, all he would have had to do is "beep" Dallas. There would have been no overt signals that showed Sharp was "taking the call away from Dallas". A "beep" from Sharp to Dallas would have caused Dallas to whistle almost immediately. Then, Sharp would have either ran upfield (signalling the ball had crossed the line for a goal) OR taken up position for a penalty kick (signalling to Dallas that there had been an intentional handball).

That being said, Sharp, obviously, didn't think the handball was intentional either, and he certainly didn't (as photo evidence supports 100%) think the ball crossed the line.

Very well. If that is the case than I will grant that your knowledge of this subject matter is profound.

Thanks for the insights.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
I'm not even going to get into your other false accusations because it seems that, after reading this thread, you consistently avoid responding to people who question your alleged conspiracies.
but then you go on to describe a "conspiracy" of the top Italian clubs...

that, is irony.

[John Galt]

Flannigan,
Setting aside all of this handball stuff, you still seem to be positive that the whole of the ball crossed the whole of the line. That is pretty much an objective fact, but I don't know if there's any documentary evidence that can objectively show that to be true. The entire bar here in Atlanta
went crazy along with you guys in the stadium, but I don't think that proves it was a goal.

I still hope the ballcrossed the line, if for no other reason than to quit arguing about what "deliberate" means. However, I'm still waiting on you to address this. Sitting behind the goal doesn't seem like enough. Where's the evidence the whole of the ball crossed the whole of the line? I wish there were some. Do you have any?