Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

[Maczebus]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
It should have been a goal and a red card on the German defender. We were robbed and the whole world knows it.


Whether the whole world knows it is rather debatable.
And they certainly don't care.

[McGinty]

Well, Dallas is considered a shill for Rangers so its obvious that he would want to screw over any team that had a former Ranger who left because he wanted to leave Ibrox, and a team with a guy named Pope. (Thanks to the Guardian for the last one)

We have a motive, at least. ;)

[Aidaen]

Hey everyone - first post.

I have the video of the handball on my computer, and after having watched it - it's pretty apparent that the entire ball did not cross the line. Every replay angle supports this.

Fringe's hand did not move towards the ball, but was away from his body. I'm unsure what that means according the rulebook - but I think it would mean a penalty shot.

The hand of JOB would also mean a penalty shot, by the way. Regardless of whether or not it's counterbalanced by the amount of non-calls on Mexican players, it still should have been a penalty kick. Regardless of that, I'd still like our chances in that game.

Bottom line, they both should have been penalty kicks, in my opinion. One helped us, one hurt. Unfortunately, I don't think we needed the help in the U.S - Mexico game, and we did need the call in the U.S - Germany game. It's a tough break, but just some of the many bad calls of WC2002. Here's hoping that Germany 2006 will be better(in that respect at least.)

Oh, one more thing :

Originally posted by thacharger


I agree, but it is hard to think what might have been....

We could have beat Korea. We could have beat Brazil.

Well, we could have beaten Korea... =)

[Thomas Flannigan]

To Mario Kempes. World Soccer Magazine this month has an article about the outrageous refs in the Cup, and shows one photo while discussing the whole sordid affair. It is the handball and it is from a perfect angle. If you don't call that the whole game is tainted. I am amazed that you defend this call.
I think Beckenbauer, Pele and Platini understand the rules. The damage control by FIFA was extraordinary. Blatter ordered that good refs be appointed for the smis. A little late in the game ater people all over the wolrd watched the Korea and Germany quarterfinals.
Our players did not complain in part because they can't. Keep in mind that the U.S., unlike any other team in the World Cup, carries 3 suspensions out of the Cup, in our case to the first game of the Confederations Cup. FIFA has a double standard when it comes to dissent too.
Oliver Kahn told reporters before the Korea game that he expected to be fighting the refs too. He was not suspended. The Barbados coach told the press after the Foxboro qualifier that the game was rigged. No suspension of course.
Coach Arena and Reyna were suspended after Peter Prendergast's shameful calls in Costa Rica for 3 games each. Arena criticized Prendergast to the press and Reyna charged Prendergast and made him back up 5 or 6 feet.
Keep in mind 5 Catrachos charged Navaro in DC, and chased him halfway across the field. None of them were suspended.
Quite simply, it appears that FIFA has two sets of rules, one for the hated Americans, and one for everyone else.
Too bad the one of the cleanest teams in the Cup, who didn't dive all over the field, carries the 3 suspensions out of the debacle. Insult to injury comes to mind.
My opinions.

[Maczebus]

What are you on? FIFA's bias against the US??

The US is FIFA's long lost rich relative.

They are desperate for football to take off in the US in a big way. After all that's part of the reason it went there in 1994, despite a none too exotic past WC performance and not even having a professional league.
The revenues that could potentially be accrued from the TV rights from the US if football gets huge there, just makes FIFA's mouth drool.

Again, smells a bit like typical US paranoia.

[Parkhead_Faithful]

What this thread should be debating is the shameful penalty mr dallas gave to the huns to put them 2-1 in front if i remember rightly, peter lovenkrands only has to fall over within 10 feet of Shug and hes pointing to the spot, i heard it happened in the tunnel too :D

[monster]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
World Soccer Magazine this month has an article about the outrageous refs in the Cup, and shows one photo while discussing the whole sordid affair. It is the handball and it is from a perfect angle. If you don't call that the whole game is tainted. I am amazed that you defend this call.

You must get a special edition. Mine has two photos, one of Spain and a larger one of the handball from behind, an angle that takes awa pretty much all depthe perception so it's impossible for the naked eye to tell where the ball is in relation to the line three feet below it.

And they spend a whopping 44 words in the entire magazine talking about the call. No wringing of hands, no consporacy theories. All they say is Dallas (and another ref who called a similar play differently) should have to explain their decision. Nothing about how the call was wrong. Just that it was controversial.

Just my opinions ... oops, I mean the facts.

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
Perhaps some of you remember my thread (before things got so bad on these boards) "Will FIFA rig an early departure for the U.S.?

Nice early departure, eh counselor?

Most of the fans worldwide who watched the Korean games, or a significant minority of such fans, think those games were rigged.

I'd like to see the results of this poll. By the way, the sky in our world is blue. What color is it in yours?

I was at the game. The U.S. section, with a perfect view, went wild the instant the ball was clearly over the line.

God help your clients if you think being behind the goal and in the stands is a "perfect view."

I'm betting you've never officiated anything in your life, Thomas. Of course you won't respond to this because you'd be forced to actually use some factual evidence.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan

I think Beckenbauer, Pele and Platini understand the rules. The damage control by FIFA was extraordinary. Blatter ordered that good refs be appointed for the smis. A little late in the game ater people all over the wolrd watched the Korea and Germany quarterfinals.What exactly does the fact that good refs for the semis are appointed prove? I'm pretty sure that happens at EVERY world cup.

[Chowderhead]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
so was the one against Mexico (I'm a US fan)

You win some, you lose some. Maybe had Arena played Clint from the start and put Josh Wolff in, taken Frankie out of the attack, left an injured Earnie Stewart and ineffective Cobi jones on the bench, the non call is a non issue

I'm sorry but I've never subscribed to the one mistake justifies another argument. We caught a break against Mexico, for sure. But how can that excuse Dallas?

What most offended me was his lecturing, educator's attitude towards the Americans.

And, while we're it at, the Port-sipping, sardine-eating tart who did the Mexico game needed a head-butt, as well. Yellow to Friedel? Yellow to Wolff for time wasting? No call against Mercado after he and his beautiful game buddy, arch-exponent of footy sophistication chopped and hacked Jones?

There can be very little defending the clowns in the middle. We had a let off against the Aztec kick-ballers. But more often than not, we we're screwed.

But, hey, we had a great campaign and I'm not going to let the biased, clueless officiating of some Eurotarts ruin my memories of it.

[Chowderhead]

Originally posted by maczebus
What are you on? FIFA's bias against the US??

The US is FIFA's long lost rich relative.

They are desperate for football to take off in the US in a big way. After all that's part of the reason it went there in 1994, despite a none too exotic past WC performance and not even having a professional league.
The revenues that could potentially be accrued from the TV rights from the US if football gets huge there, just makes FIFA's mouth drool.

Again, smells a bit like typical US paranoia.

We do have the advantage of first hand experience, my curious friend. It's not FIFA that's anti-US, though. To that I will agree. But many men in the middle have decided to give us the old treatment through the years.

Have you ever seen the tape of a little thing called the US-Guatemala WCQ played at RFK in November 1996? That was a real shining moment. You haven't lived until you've seen a 90 minute kungfu exhibition done to marimba music.

How about a little thing called the US-Trinidad and Tobago game played that same month? You know. The game in which some Trinnie put Tab Ramos in the hospital and the ref stood there as if he were watching Forrest Gump or Titanic in the front row of a movie theatre? Did you catch that? Sheer poetry, that game was.

Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Peter Prendergast? A month and a half before he dropped four hits of windowpane and officiated the US-Costa Rica game (the Berhalter hand ball off the chest in the 91st minute?) he sat back and watched the Mexican Folkloric Ballet chop Claudio Reyna mercilessly in Giants Stadium. Did you happen to catch that? He did SWEET FA about it.

Did you see Cobi Jones get sent off in Honduras? We still had them that night, though, didn't we? No foul was called on the real perp and we ended up with ten on the field down in Hondie.

Have you ever heard of a guy by the name of Sherriff Castrilli? Oh, you have, huh? Do you remember the call that he made against Friedel during that WCQ in the Azteca for too many steps? That was the only time in my life that I've seen that called at the international level.

And how on God's green earth was that PK called against Agoos in the Korea game? And the subsequent free kick?

How could Beasley possibly have been yellow carded against Portugal? I'm still trying to figure that out. Why did Wolff get a yellow against Mexico? And then Friedel?

The list goes on and on, pal. FIFA and USSF may be tight. And they should be. But that doesn't mean that individual refs haven't been biased against Uncle.

Surf's up, dude.

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
To Mario Kempes. World Soccer Magazine this month has an article about the outrageous refs in the Cup, and shows one photo while discussing the whole sordid affair. It is the handball and it is from a perfect angle. If you don't call that the whole game is tainted. I am amazed that you defend this call.
I think Beckenbauer, Pele and Platini understand the rules. The damage control by FIFA was extraordinary. Blatter ordered that good refs be appointed for the smis. A little late in the game ater people all over the wolrd watched the Korea and Germany quarterfinals.


This handball was discussed ad infinitum in another thread, but unfortunately it met its early death at the Big Soccer crash. Anyways...

Let's go over the handball call once again. First, did the ball hit Frings hand? Yes, clearly. So it is a handball. Second, was the handball intentional?
This is the heart of the matter. Any and all arguments about the call can only start with the following:

"I think the handball was intentional because...."

The usual criteria for determining intent is "hand to ball". Clearly from the video, the ball caromed off of Kahn and hit Frings hand. Frings had no time to react. He only pulled his hand back after the ball arrived. Clearly this was a case of "ball to hand". The only other criteria for intent, in this case, is unusual hand position. Frings was standing straight up with his arms at his sides. I would estimate they were about 6-8 inches from his sides, but I may be a little off one way or the other. I thought his arms were in rather a natural position. I would not have called the handball intentional.

Now, I'm NOT saying someone who calls the handball intentional is wrong, because the call is rather subjective. However, any other argument besides "his hands were unusually far away from his sides" would not be valid. And I think they have to be pretty far away from his sides to make this type of judgement. The spirit of the game is that the benefit of doubt goes to the defender. Horizontal arms would clearly be unusual. 45 degress would be unusual. Anything less than that, and it is a grey area where common sense and subjectivity battle it out.

As for Beckenbauer, he said that any handball on the goal line was an automatic PK. He is completely wrong. And Pele has said so many dumb things, I'm not going to bother listing them.

[IASocFan]

Good summary, Mario. Let's move on.

[Chowderhead]

Originally posted by MarioKempes


And Pele has said so many dumb things, I'm not going to bother listing them.

So true. Nice guy, it seems. But clueless. But as long as figures such as Pele are elevated to oracle and sage status, he'll keep talking crap.

Mario, two questions:

1) Who does your hair? And...

2) Put Eddie Pope or Alexi Lalas in the position of the German defender. Let's say that Aldair or Dunga or Fernando Hierro or Paulo Maldini had taken the shot. Call the venue WC in France. Or a Copa America game in Bolivia or Paraguay or whatever. Would that have been called a PK?

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by Chowderhead


Mario, two questions:

1) Who does your hair? And...



A professional hair stylist. Would you expect anything less? :)


2) Put Eddie Pope or Alexi Lalas in the position of the German defender. Let's say that Aldair or Dunga or Fernando Hierro or Paulo Maldini had taken the shot. Call the venue WC in France. Or a Copa America game in Bolivia or Paraguay or whatever. Would that have been called a PK?

Well, as I said this call gets made all the time for the wrong reasons at every level from peewee to the World Cup. The Italy-Chile match in 1998 is a good example. Baggio kicks the ball into a Chilean defender in the box and gets the PK. A masterful move by Baggio, but no way was the handball intentional.

I could not speculate about what calls may or may not be made (well I could, but I would be talking out of my arse). Referees are human, crumple under pressure, and have their own biases. I can only tell you what the rules are and how calls should be made or at least what the arguments about said calls should be.

The Pendergast gaffe was just that. The Dallas call was debatable, but certainly not ridiculous as some here thought.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that NO referees have biases or that ALL referees love the US, but I don't think there's any sort of grand conspiracy emanating from FIFA. Does Dallas hate the US team? I have no idea. I don't think he had too much of a fun time working MLS games. He was a bit card happy if I remember correctly. Hard to get inside a man's mind. I'm sure a pint of whiskey and a plate of haggis makes the pain go away.

[monster]

Originally posted by MarioKempes
Does Dallas hate the US team? I have no idea. I don't think he had too much of a fun time working MLS games. He was a bit card happy if I remember correctly.

That wasn't Dallas. That was Stuart Dougal, i think his name is.

Dallas made a bad call. But there is no worldwide outcry as Thomas alleges. But I'm kinda used to him ignoring facts and dragging his cross around.

Just my opinions.

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by monster


That wasn't Dallas. That was Stuart Dougal, i think his name is.

Dallas made a bad call. But there is no worldwide outcry as Thomas alleges. But I'm kinda used to him ignoring facts and dragging his cross around.

Just my opinions.

Yeah, you're right. It was Stuard "Dr. Discipline" Dougal. Never mind. ;)

[Thomas Flannigan]

I will repeat my explanation. I have stated this many times but there are new posters here so I will give it another try. There are factions in FIFA, and there is certainly a faction that wants the US to qualify for the World Cup. It means more money in the pot. The same faction prevailed, over much opposition, the second time the U.S. tried to host the World Cup. The first time we tried this faction was not powerful enough to prevail. The second time we barely got the Cup.
These people do not pick the referees or mete out discipline. Codesal and Texiera, among others, handle referee assignments. A guy like Texiera has enough clout to keep Blatter from interfering too much, not that Blatter would call for more honest refs if he hads that power. I hope you are familiar with the career of Ricardo Texeira. I don't know if it is him but some people in these committees hate the U.S. and that is why we keep getting people like Rodolfo Sibrianto as a ref.
Damage control by FIFA kicked in after the widespread perception worldwide than many games, including 2 or 3 of the quarterfinal games, were rigged. That's why you had Blatter calling for good referees for the semis. Hardly anyone outside of this discussioon really thought the refs preceding that stage had been decent.
Keep in mind that FIFA banned instant replays on World Cup scoreboards only a day or two after the US-Korea game, when the whole stadium could see that the foul leading to Korea's only goal was an outrageous call. The U.S. had 10 shots in that game, 5 on goal, and NOT A SINGLE CORNER KICK. I have watched soccer my whole life and I cannot remember a game where a team received no corner kicks.
Chowderhead correctly provides a partial list of the outrageous calls we got in past WCQs, and it got worse in the Cup, as I predicted. We qualified for the World Cup and we advanced in spite of biased refs. It makes it a lot harder but it is possible.
I admire the Italians. As a nation they have called the FIFA refereeng system what it deserves to be called. A few knee-jerk people will always defend the status quo with the same tired insults about conspiracy theories. It provides the public relations cover FIFA desperately needs at this point.
The "foul" that lead to Germany's only goal was due to an outrageous dive, something Luis Hernandez would try. Hey, it worked. Cheating works when you have a ref dedicated to the German cause.
In all my years of watching soccer I have never seen a card given for delay while the wall is being set. Every time a German sneezed they got a free kick and Dallas handed out 2 cards for delay forming the wall. Such calls mean that the U.S., the team that did not dive or hack its way through the tournament, has 3 players suspended for the first game of the Confederations Cup.
A new prediction. We will get screwed by the refs in WCQs in 2004 and 2005 unless one of two things happens: A change in the factions in FIFA, or a concerted outcry, like in Italy, against the unfair treatement. You better believe Italy will get a good ref in the next important game.
Just my opinions.

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan

snip


I thought the referees in the last World Cup did a pretty good job on the whole. The main problem was with the assistant referees (linesman) and offside calls. Italy got screwed against Korea with the Tomassi offside, no question, but we don't know if it would have led to a goal. I doubt it. Other than that, Italy has no other valid complaints. The calls in the Croatia game were debateable at best, and I agreed with each of them. Vieri fails to put away an easy chance in front of goal. That's why Italy lost against Korea.

In the Spain-Korea game, the assistant referee was in a perfect position to make the call on the "out of bounds". There's no question that the ball was in bounds on the kick. After it left the Spanish player's foot, I thought the ball stayed in. However, watching the play from another angle, I thought it was very possible that the ball did go out and come back in, and the linesman was in a perfect position to see it. So I think the call is debateable at best. No one can say for sure if the ball went out. Only the linesman really knows, and he was watching it closely right on the end line.

In the US-Germany game, it looked like the first Donovan offside call was wrong.

There are other examples, but the point is that it was mostly a problem with assistant referees, not the center referees. And I think it was a case of incompetence and human error, and not corruption. I would like someone to come forward with proof when making allegations of corruption. Otherwise, it is better to be quiet.

[bungadiri]

Originally posted by MarioKempes
...There are other examples, but the point is that it was mostly a problem with assistant referees, not the center referees. And I think it was a case of incompetence and human error, and not corruption. I would like someone to come forward with proof when making allegations of corruption. Otherwise, it is better to be quiet.

Agreed.

[Thomas Flannigan]

Better to be quiet? FIFA likes it that way. The fans all over the world sure weren't quiet when they saw one outrageous call after another. An incompetent ref would blow calls both ways. No one has pointed out a bad call by Uli Schmeir or Dallas that helped the U.S. All of the bad calls helped the opposition.
You are never going to get one of these guys to confess anymore than a corrupt US President will ADMIT to wrongdoing. But people paying attetnion sure knows what is going on.
FIFA is facing a crisis in confidence and would not have made the extraordinary announcement conceding that the refs were bad unless it had to.
My opinions.