Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

[ctruppi]

Seems to me there is a simple solution to all this. Change the rules (excuse me, laws) and get rid of the word "intent". Therefore, any and all hand balls are punishable. Period, end of story. This will stop the cowardly refs we have seen from hiding behind that utterly useless word! What are these guys anyway, mighty wizards who can see the minds of men?!?! Not only do we ask these generally out-of-shape, non-athletes to run at beakneck speed up and down the length of a pitch for 90 minutes to keep up up with some of the finest athletes on the planet, but we also ask them in an instant, an in real-time, to decide the underlying "motivation" of a player's action!! What a bunch of bullsh!t!! This has to be one of the stupidest things in all sports and is an easy out for plain bad calls.

[JMoney418]

Originally posted by VFish
Are we still bellyachin' about that non-call? Jezus Pete, it was ages ago! Perhaps we can dig up Pendergrast’s unconscionable call against us in qualifying while we at it.

The Cup’s over, time to move on…

ANYWAY! Who's sausage did he lick to get in J/K? Hes just horrible....

On a happier note, I thought Byron Moreno did a wonderful job in the US v Portugal game. It was controlled and he was very professional. Everyone makes mistakes, but you can really only criticize people like Hugh Dallas who admitted he saw it...yet never called it! Thats was disgusting! The Hand of JOB in the Mexico game? You get stuff like that. Refsarent gonna get everything....but I tihnk it was somewhat fair because Blanco shoudl have easily been red carded a few times over. Besides...I think JOB's was unintentional.

Now Pendergast's calls in qualifying? Well...*************** happens....but Im not that hurt anymore because it didnt screw us over in the end...

[Thomas Flannigan]

Good post Billf. Moreno told the press after the Korea-Italy game that he had made many mistakes. That is an understatement.
About one billion people saw the handball in the U.S.-Germany game. Funny Hugh Dallas is the only one who didn't. You are correct about the terrible call that led to the lone German goal (same thing Schmeir did to Donavan for the lone Korean goal against the U.S.).
Dallas also sliced 60-90 seconds off the injury time determined by the 4th ref, gave the U.S. a couple of bogus cards, and gave Germany free kick after free kick when they were not warranted.
I admire Beckenbauer's courage when he blasted Dallas for not calling a PK against his own countrymen. Defend Dallas, Schmeir and the rest all you want. Just don't complain when we get Rodolfo Sibriani for a 4th time in a crucial 2005 qualifier.
Just my opinions.

[fox point fury]

On a side note, during a bundesliga broadcast last week (I forget who was playing) the announcers mentioned that the rules of the game (at least in Germany) were recently changed to say that accidental hand-balls that save goals will not be punished.

[VFish]

Bad calls are part of the game. Some go for you, some against. The fact is, it was Oliver Kahn that beat us that day, not Hugh Dallas.

[BenReilly]

Originally posted by superdave

That's not what you predicted.

Liar.

Whoa! What's with the hostility?

[Thomas Flannigan]

Ben, ignore him. Some people just insult rather than debate.
But for Hugh Dallas the U.S. may well have won the World Cup. Kahn let the tying goal in after being out of position for Donavon's shot, but played a fine game. He was lucky on Reyna's lob after again being out of position. It helped to have Hugh Dallas on his side.
If bad calls go both ways can you please point out what bad calls helped the U.S. in the World Cup? Other than the O'Brien handball (offset by Perreira's failure to give Blanco a red card on 2 occasions) the bad calls seemed to help the U.S. opponent. I think comments by Pele, Beckenbauer and Platini back me up, at least in part.
Just my opinions.

[VFish]

I’m not sure what comments you are referring too. If they said that Dallas should have awarded a PK then I concur, but he didn’t. Regardless, this was but one play in 90 minutes of football. We created plenty of other opportunities and if we had finished a few we would have won. Unfortunately, we didn’t. I don’t buy into your conspiracy theory, and I don’t believe there was any malicious intent in Dallas’ decision. The incident was hardly cut and dry, and he gave a perfectly rational defense of his judgement.

[superdave]

Originally posted by BenReilly
Whoa! What's with the hostility?
Maybe he can fool someone who joined in April, but this psychotic misogynistic liar isn't fooling me.

Ben...he said FIFA had rigged the draw and would rig the refs so that the US wouldn't get out of the first round. That of course didn't happen.

He is lying now. I would point out the obvious...if there was a FIFA conspiracy, JOB's handball would have been called.

BTW...it's not true that Germany "changed" the rule. They may have changed the interpretation, but it's always been the rule that accidental handballs aren't supposed to be punished. The word "deliberate" is in the LOTG.

As for the call...Frings had no chance to move his arm. Some would give a handball based on the notion that a player guarding the post isn't there to mark a player, he's supposed to pretty much just stand there. So if his arms are away from his body, the position of the arms makes it "deliberate." Some would be so strict as to call it deliberate just because his arms weren't behind him, and he was on the goalline.

I haven't rewatched the game yet, so I can't say whether or not his arms were out enough to consider it deliberate.

Man, I wish I could remember the specifics, but Dallas said something in his statement that was clearly a CYA move. Does anyone remember?

[Tick]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
I was perhaps 40 feet from Kahn and the ball was over the line too.

Bull. How many times have we seen replays on this goal? It was NOT over the line.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
I was perhaps 40 feet from Kahn and the ball was over the line too.
Let's pretend for a second that Thomas isn't a psychopathic liar. Just for the sake of argument, let's take this statement at face value.

What does this tell you? If he was 40 feet away, we know, for certain, that he was behind the goal, NOT LOOKING DOWN THE ENDLINE, and thus had a crap angle. How do I know this?

If the field was 75 yards wide, and the goal is 8 yards wide, then it's almost exactly 100 feet from the sideline to a goalpost.

So he was behind the goal. And only a fool would make a definitive statement about a borderline call like this from behind the goal.

Or a psychopathic liar.

See, Ben, that's why. And I'll bet you all of the tea in China that he doesn't address this post.

[flanoverseas]

What is the exact rule in soccer. I only started playing around 13 years ago...

Is it the same as football, where as soon as ANY part of the ball breaks the plane of the goaline it is a touchdown?

If that is the case, it was a goal.

Or does the ball have to be halfway over, or all the way over?

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by superdave


See, Ben, that's why. And I'll bet you all of the tea in China that he doesn't address this post. just like me pointing out to him that he didn't actually read my post, but called me out on something I didn't really say.

He never responded.

[VFish]

The whole ball must be over...

[bungadiri]

Originally posted by superdave
As for the call...Frings had no chance to move his arm. Some would give a handball based on the notion that a player guarding the post isn't there to mark a player, he's supposed to pretty much just stand there. So if his arms are away from his body, the position of the arms makes it "deliberate." Some would be so strict as to call it deliberate just because his arms weren't behind him, and he was on the goalline.

I haven't rewatched the game yet, so I can't say whether or not his arms were out enough to consider it deliberate.

Man, I wish I could remember the specifics, but Dallas said something in his statement that was clearly a CYA move. Does anyone remember?
I agree, over the long haul we got our share of breaks as well as bad calls.

My recollection is that Frings' hand was down, within a few (say 6-8) inches of his hip, and STILL when the ball squirted out from the tangle of guys at his feet and hit him. He did not react to the ball until after the contact: the ball played him. Based on the "deliberate" factor, I think the non-call is defensible given a strict reading of the Laws, even if it's at odds with general practice. And no way was the ball over the line.

In any case, I doubt that Dallas saw it (post facto CYA seems to me to be an accurate description of his statements to the contrary) and although I think he probably would have made a call had he seen the contact, what can you do, goat s**t is round. Move on guys.

[Thomas Flannigan]

"psychotic misogynistic liar!" I thought I was a paranoid lunatic. I have been promoted. As always, I do not insult people and will not respond to this TOS violation or any other.
When we had this discussion prior to the Cup I pointed out that efforts to rig games do not always work. Anyone who watched our WCQs closely can porably come up with a couple of games where the ref was an outrage beut we pulled out a win or a tie. It makes it harder.
If Dallas had blown this call and called a fair game I would think it was a mistake. The whole game was terrible. We (I use the term loosely) go into the Confeerations Cup with Mastroenni, Pope and Berhalter suspended, at least according to Skysports. Dallas's outrageous yellow cards over setting the wall, something which never results in a card, put us in that hole. He cut short stoppage time, gave Germany a BS call that resulted in a goal, and gave Germany many unfair free kicks. They needed the help with 2 shots on goal the whole game!
I was at the game. The U.S. section, with a perfect view, went wild the instant the ball was clearly over the line. We could clearly see Kahn grapple with it on the ground for an instant, well beyond the line, before he smuggled it forward. We did not jeer until it became clear Mr. Dallas had not called a goal. Then, the most angry, derisive jeer I have ever heard cascaded out of the stands.
On TV, it is less clear. Most people think it is either over or damn close. Some, mostly American "fans" insist that it is clearly not a goal.
Just my opinions.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
"psychotic misogynistic liar!" I thought I was a paranoid lunatic. I have been promoted. As always, I do not insult people and will not respond to this TOS violation or any other.
When we had this discussion prior to the Cup I pointed out that efforts to rig games do not always work. Anyone who watched our WCQs closely can porably come up with a couple of games where the ref was an outrage beut we pulled out a win or a tie. It makes it harder.
If Dallas had blown this call and called a fair game I would think it was a mistake. The whole game was terrible. We (I use the term loosely) go into the Confeerations Cup with Mastroenni, Pope and Berhalter suspended, at least according to Skysports. Dallas's outrageous yellow cards over setting the wall, something which never results in a card, put us in that hole. He cut short stoppage time, gave Germany a BS call that resulted in a goal, and gave Germany many unfair free kicks. They needed the help with 2 shots on goal the whole game!
I was at the game. The U.S. section, with a perfect view, went wild the instant the ball was clearly over the line. We could clearly see Kahn grapple with it on the ground for an instant, well beyond the line, before he smuggled it forward. We did not jeer until it became clear Mr. Dallas had not called a goal. Then, the most angry, derisive jeer I have ever heard cascaded out of the stands.
On TV, it is less clear. Most people think it is either over or damn close. Some, mostly American "fans" insist that it is clearly not a goal.
Just my opinions. superdave wins 'all the tea in china'

[MetroTard]

Tom, I think someone has beaten you to the punch:

http://espn.go.com/soccer/news/2002/0823/1421910.html

[Nutmeg]

One thing that is hard to dispute, whether or not you agree with Thomas, is that Dallas blew that call, and was generally piss-poor in that game. I have rewatched both this play and the game a few times, and here are my opinions. Take them for what you will:

1. By the letter of the law, if a player's arm is away from the body, which Fring's was, then it was a deliberate handball. That law was established so that referee's wouldn't have to judge intent, which would be rubbish. Refereeing soccer will never be black and white, but this is a good law in that it takes a value decision away from the ref who could play favorites. Dallas, in the case of the US, decided to ignore that law. He blew it, as Beck correctly stated after the game.

2. Dallas was overly card-happy, a reputation he has worked hard for over the years. In this game, he fell for dive after dive from the Germans, who received criticism even from their own press for their cowardly tactics. Far too many yellows were handed out to the US, and even if we had beaten Germany and advanced, many of our key players (I think including Mastroeni and Reyna) would have been ineligible for the semis. Germany's goal was set up by a German dive and the resulting free kick from Dallas' blown call.

3. WAY, WAY too much attention has been paid to JOB's non-call on the handball. It is if people assume Mexico would have scored if not for that handball, totally ignoring the fact that even IF (a very big IF) a Mexican had gotten a clean head on the ball, there is a stronger chance than not that this header would have resulted in a save from one of the WCs best goalies or even more probable, a shot off-target. If teams scored a goal every time they got a clear header on a corner, soccer scores would be more like 7-6 instead of 2-1. Even if JOB had been called for a penalty, assuming that Mexico would have converted that penalty is also bogus. And assuming that Mexico would have won if they had gotten that call AND converted the penalty is even more foolish.

[M]

Originally posted by Nutmeg
1. By the letter of the law, if a player's arm is away from the body, which Fring's was, then it was a deliberate handball. That law was established so that referee's wouldn't have to judge intent, which would be rubbish. Refereeing soccer will never be black and white, but this is a good law in that it takes a value decision away from the ref who could play favorites. Dallas, in the case of the US, decided to ignore that law. He blew it, as Beck correctly stated after the game.


There is no such law. Nor is there any IFAB ruling to this effect.