Hugh Dallas sends off player for u know what

[SoFla Metro]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
I've avoided this thread because the play in the USA/Germany game was hashed and rehashed through at least 15 pages and hundreds of posts and there is no way that anything more constructive can be said on this subject. People have differing opinions and that's fine. However, as MarioKempes has, I'm sure, taken great pains to point out throughout this thread, certain arguments (like the one immediately above this post that a "handball" that stops a goal is a penalty, regardless of intent) are 100% incorrect and not supported in any way by any facts. No matter what you see on the Sunday amateur rec leagues (admittedly, there can be some poor reffing), intent has to exist for a handling call to be made.

The Laws are crystal clear; the foul is "deliberate handling", not "handball". If one wants to argue that Frings deliberatedly handled the ball, you have some circumstantial evidence to back you up, and you're entitled to your opinion. If one wants to argue that it wasn't intentional, there is also evidence to support that theory. It's all in the eye of the beholder on this call and, unfortunately for the US in this case, Dallas' opinion is the only one that matters.

But anyway, I digress from my main point. And that is, to ask, how in the world is the fact that a Scottish referee called a penalty in a Scottish league match for a handling offence worthy of a thread in the USMNT N & A forum? I know what the answers are going to be by some, but c'mon, did you think that Dallas wasn't going to make this call for the rest of his life because it was a controversial play at the WC? He, and probably every FIFA ref like him, has seen dozens, if not hundreds of similar plays throughout his career. Some he has deemed to be handling, some he has deemed to be accidental. The two plays are entirely disconnected, one happened in the World Cup, the other in the SPL. The only common denominator is Dallas. Talking about a particular referee hardly seems worthy of "news & analysis", nevermind having anything to do with the USMNT to begin with. Best post in this thread.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
Donavan yells a lot in the MLS but he did not do it at the Cup.
What is or is not "a lot" is subjective. I disagree with you, Thomas.

In particular, he was leading the charge when his goal was disallowed against Poland. If only he had worked to get back on defense instead....

[superdave]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
A brfief excerpt from the Manchester Guardian of June 24, 2002.

{snip}Yesterday the Spanish football association announced it was making an official protest over the standard of refereeing by the Egyptian Gamal Ghandour and his Ugandan and Trinidadian assistants.

"I don't think the referees were correct; they made mistakes and if anyone had won it should have been Spain," said the association's president Angel Maria Villar, a close ally of the Fifa president Sepp Blatter. "Our official complaint will say Spain were prejudiced by the referee. The damage has been done but we have to stop things like this happening."
It reads, to me, that Spain thought the crew sucked. If it were corruption, it wouldn't be "mistakes" that were the problem. And as I read the statement about "prejudice," well, English obviously isn't this guy's first language. To me, a word like "harmed" or "disadvantaged" would have been better.
It is not just the Spanish who suspect this World Cup is rigged in favour of its co-hosts.
Thomas, on what do you base your assertion that the Spanish thought the WC was rigged? You have quoted some stuff about the referees sucking, but I don't see anything about rigging.

What's that cliche? "Don't assume malevolence when incompetence will do."

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by superdave
What's that cliche? "Don't assume malevolence when incompetence will do." [/B]

Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.

[SoFla Metro]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
It seems like quite a coincidence. The World Cup was 11 days old when we go the shaft in Daegu, and instant replays had been used in games up to that point. The next day, or 2 days later, whatever, FIFA banned the use of instant replays.Well was it one day, or was it two days? Because by two days later, if I recall correctly, other games had been played.

[Thomas Flannigan]

I was in the first row of section 2, just beyond the net, to Kahn's right. The World Soccer photo was taken from a similar vantage point on the left side. That photographer seems closer than I was, but it was probably a telephoto lense.
The Guardian article said it was not just the Spanish that thought the game was rigged, going on to say that some Koreans concurred. I think you can infer from this that at least some Spanish thought it was rigged. Surely, you folks remember the outcry by the Spanish after the game.

[superdave]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan I was in the first row of section 2, just beyond the net, to Kahn's right.
Then will you please admit you didn't have a "perfect view?" Unless you're looking down the line, you don't have a perfect view at a play like this.

You had a good look, but not a great look. Let alone a perfect view.

The Guardian article said it was not just the Spanish that thought the game was rigged, going on to say that some Koreans concurred.
Could you please quote those sections of the article? Or provide a link?

Thanks.

[Thomas Flannigan]

Vfish, I brought up the Norway game because of the discussion we had about the ref being in electronic contact with someone not on the field. When I repeated what I had read in the newspaper, a moderator said I should be committed to a mental hospital and my law license taken away. So it was gratifying to have MassRef confirm that the ref IS IN ELECTRONIC CONTACT with someone who is not on the playing field, in this case, the AR who stands out of bounds.
I agree that the call in the Norway game was correct. Heck, all 3 refs we had at the 1998 World Cup did a good job. The refs we had in 1996-97 qualfiying were also good. This time was different.

[Thomas Flannigan]

"It is not just the Spanish who suspect this World Cup is rigged in favour of its co-hosts. Fifa also received 400,000 irate emails from Italian fans following their controversial second-round defeat by South Korea. For such allegations even to be on the agenda is a damaging blow to this or any World Cup."


This excerpt was already posted from the Guardian article in case you missed it the first time.

[flanoverseas]

There are certainly no perfect angles in that video. But...In quick time, you can pause and drag the arrow to do slow mo

If you look at the first replay, you can see that Frings feet are about 6 inches in front of the line, with his knees bent and he appears to be leaning backwards, so that his body is in the plane of the goal.

Then, he puts his hand all the way behind his body, which would imply that the ball crossed over the goal. At first, when I saw where his hand was before the ball hit it, I thought that the ball had to have certainly crossed the line.

Looking at that first replay, however, you can see that Frings watches the ball the whole way and at the last instant moves his hand forward to strike the ball and immediately moves his hand back again behind his back.

You have to watch very closely, but tell me if you don't see this. His left arm is in the same field of vision as the post. Right before the ball hits his hand, it looks as though his hand is attached to the post - right at the fingers, then there is a bit of space, indicating that he moved it forward, then it is back even with the post again. He moved his hand TO the ball, probably about 6 inches

Intent is there. I wasn't sure until now. In the run of play, it would have been impossible to see him move his hand forward. Dallas just didn't see it. Probably should make any handball on the goaline a penalty

[superdave]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan "It is not just the Spanish who suspect this World Cup is rigged in favour of its co-hosts. Fifa also received 400,000 irate emails from Italian fans following their controversial second-round defeat by South Korea. For such allegations even to be on the agenda is a damaging blow to this or any World Cup."

This excerpt was already posted from the Guardian article in case you missed it the first time.
Sorry, I thought that the above quote was your words, not the Guardian's.

Clearly, the conclusion of the Guardian is not supported by their own article.

I wonder, Thomas, if you can find the Spanish themselves saying the game was rigged, and not the Guardian saying the Spanish saying the game was rigged.

Thanks.

[superdave]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
Probably should make any handball on the goaline a penalty
I made that suggestion way back when, that any contact, even ball to hand, should be a penalty if the arm is not directly at the player's side, and the player is on the goalline. Give a redcard if the ref thinks the defender "deliberately" handled the ball, in terms of an overt act (either not moving out of the way, the arm in a clearly unnatural position, or moving toward the ball.)

I understand how one can argue that Dallas made the right call. I, personally, based on his postgame comments on the play, believe he did not see it.

But I still come back to one key point...there's a reason that players run around their area with their arms behind them. And a player who was just defending the line, not marking a player?!?!?! I would argue that common sense makes that a handball. My understanding is that the normal practice for refs in this situation is to let the defender get away with it if his arm is in a normal position. But I believe that "normal practice" is wrong.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by superdave

But I still come back to one key point...there's a reason that players run around their area with their arms behind them. And a player who was just defending the line, not marking a player?!?!?! I would argue that common sense makes that a handball. My understanding is that the normal practice for refs in this situation is to let the defender get away with it if his arm is in a normal position. But I believe that "normal practice" is wrong.
which would also prevent players from moving their arms imperceptibly, to the ref 15-30m away, to block the ball with an "unintentional" hand ball.

But I've said it before, I'd be ES-F-ing-STATIC if they would just enforce the rules already there.

[Thomas Flannigan]

You gentlemen may be interested in FIFA's latest effort at damage control. They must be concerned or they would not keep the fire hoses turned on high.

http://www.fifa.com/Service/MR_A/42503_E.html

It is a very poorly written article but does have a good photo of the handball.

[flanoverseas]

Thomas,
You've mentioned Portugal and their beef with the refereeing, but you also said that the refs were biased against us for the Portugal game.

What were you referring to for Portugal?

[monster]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
You gentlemen may be interested in FIFA's latest effort at damage control. They must be concerned or they would not keep the fire hoses turned on high.

http://www.fifa.com/Service/MR_A/42503_E.html

It is a very poorly written article but does have a good photo of the handball.

They're concerned people might start to believe people like you. And the pic is very good, but shows absolutely nothing in regards to where it was in relation to the line.

[VFish]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
Thomas,
You've mentioned Portugal and their beef with the refereeing, but you also said that the refs were biased against us for the Portugal game.

What were you referring to for Portugal? Portugal was upset about playing two men down against the Koreans. Of course the underachieving Portuguese have a long history of bellyaching about refereeing.

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
I ask the Moderator who insists on sending me belligerant and insulting PMs to stop.

It puts the lotion in the basket....

[John Galt]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/story/0,11224,741147,00.html

[SoFla Metro]

Originally posted by Thomas Flannigan
You gentlemen may be interested in FIFA's latest effort at damage control. They must be concerned or they would not keep the fire hoses turned on high.

http://www.fifa.com/Service/MR_A/42503_E.html

It is a very poorly written article but does have a good photo of the handball. 1. It's a pretty damn well-written article
2. It's a very good photo of a ball hitting a player's hand. The ball, by the way, is clearly not over the line.

How exactly is an op-ed piece 'damage control?'

When was this story written and posted, hmm? I see they're also keeping "the fire hoses turned on high" with a controversial story about how great it felt for Ronaldo to lift the cup.