Developmental Players

[swedcrip34]

Thanks. I had tried that with google briefly and had no luck, definitely will use that for now.

Isn't this a huge loophole then? A team could sign 10 new DEV players and then promote them all in the same year? I guess they'd all have to be younger than 23 at least.

[ChrisE]

Thanks. I had tried that with google briefly and had no luck, definitely will use that for now.

Isn't this a huge loophole then? A team could sign 10 new DEV players and then promote them all in the same year? I guess they'd all have to be younger than 23 at least.

I suppose in theory, yeah, that's a loophole. However, considering that the league has control over all player contracts, I don't think there's much of a risk of a team going behind the league's back, or subverting the rules, to add these players. The league hasn't exactly been known to adhere closely to the letter of its law.


I think what's more important, however, is that this simply wouldn't work. I'm extremely confident that no team could significantly improve their team by retooling as a team made up of young, cheap foreigners. American talent is what's necessary to win in MLS these days.

[swedcrip34]

I'm in favor of roster stability to help grow the fan base, that's why I look for loopholes like these. The whole 2-3 discovery signing per year doesn't seem to work out fairly. The Metrostars somehow seem to have 10 new players added during the course of every season.

[swedcrip34]

2004 brought in 18 new developmental players (or so, MLS doesn't make counting them easy). Here they are:


Aloisi, Chris
Cila, Jordan
Clanton, Denny
Detter, Justin
Dombroski, Tighe
Erush, Michael
Hesmer, Will
Maurin, Ty
Parke, Jeff
Perkins, Troy
Pickens, Matt
Pilarski, Ian
Sullivan, Gary
Sutton, Jamal
Wells, Zach
Vercollone, Luke
Brilliant, Felix
Dorman, Andy


Anyone have any source stating that Parke and Wells are developmental? I'm also curious if Parke made the full roster, he seems to be playing much more than the others.

[ChrisE]

I'm in favor of roster stability to help grow the fan base, that's why I look for loopholes like these. The whole 2-3 discovery signing per year doesn't seem to work out fairly. The Metrostars somehow seem to have 10 new players added during the course of every season.

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner.

By roster stability, you mean keeping individual players around for a long period of time? In my opinion, that's pretty much impossible, considering the improvement the league is seeing. A good number of mediocre players are going to be replaced every year, guys who were slightly below average become mediocre, those guys get eliminated the next year, ad infinitum.

As for the Metros - did you see my thread on Club Turnover? Bob Bradley totally renovated the Metrostars last year, but I suspect that's because he wasn't happy with the kinds of players that were on the team...at Chicago, he consistently had some of the lowest turnover in the league. I expect the Metros to be like that, after this year, for pretty much the rest of his tenure.

[ChrisE]

Anyone have any source stating that Parke and Wells are developmental? I'm also curious if Parke made the full roster, he seems to be playing much more than the others.

I think I was wrong about that, I just assumed Parke would be developmental, being the 60th pick. It looks like they're both on the full roster - the Metros roster situation was totally incomprehensible earlier this year though.

Nowak signing Gros and Bradley signing Parke to full roster slots is really killing my argument. :)

[ChrisE]

There's a good number of former developmental players who are now toiling away in lower divisions. It's sort of interesting, because it seems to me that being an Pro-40 is to MLS what failed developmental player is to the A-league. A lot of these guys are some of the most talented young players in the league. Most notable is Jeff Matteo, who registered a goal and an assist in his Minnesota Thunder debut last week, but Nick Walls had a solid year last year, Josh Saunders is the best young goalkeeper in the A-league, etc. etc.

Here is my incomplete list of where the waived DP's have gone, if anybody has additional information, I'd appreciate it.


Kante, Ibrahim (MISL - Baltimore)
Bagley, Chris (AL - Charleston)
Rosenband, Andy (AL - Charleston)
Ochoa, Jesus (M2 - Lagartos)
Frias, Tony (Port - Lusitania)
Walls, Nick (AL - Milwaukee)
Brunt, Chris (AL - Minnesota)
Matteo, Jeff (AL - Minnesota)
Bengard, Alex (AL - Portland)
Saunders, Josh (AL - Portland)
Blake, Alex (AL - Rochester)
Gomez, Herculez (PSL - San Diego)
Goode, Taly ?
Geddes, Jorge ?
Murriagui, Andres ?
Perea, Trevor ?
Piserchio, Michael ?
Ueltschey, Michael ?
Maliza, Johanes ?
Nugent, Mike retired

[swedcrip34]

Sorry I didn't respond to this sooner.

By roster stability, you mean keeping individual players around for a long period of time? In my opinion, that's pretty much impossible, considering the improvement the league is seeing. A good number of mediocre players are going to be replaced every year, guys who were slightly below average become mediocre, those guys get eliminated the next year, ad infinitum.

As for the Metros - did you see my thread on Club Turnover? Bob Bradley totally renovated the Metrostars last year, but I suspect that's because he wasn't happy with the kinds of players that were on the team...at Chicago, he consistently had some of the lowest turnover in the league. I expect the Metros to be like that, after this year, for pretty much the rest of his tenure.

I understand the need to change around the team when they are doing poorly but look at how the metrostars seem to sign 4-5 foreign players each year who never stick. I'd prefer teams improve through the draft, it's fairer than the league office changing secretive rules so often. I like the limit of 2 discoveries each year. I don't see all the metrostars roster changes helping the team until they got Bradley. I just think its hard to get the casual fans hooked when the players change every year. They start to expect none of the players to stick around and become less likely to become fans of their players.

[swedcrip34]

I think I was wrong about that, I just assumed Parke would be developmental, being the 60th pick. It looks like they're both on the full roster - the Metros roster situation was totally incomprehensible earlier this year though.

Nowak signing Gros and Bradley signing Parke to full roster slots is really killing my argument. :)

The pdf preseason preview from mlsnet listed Parke as DEV but I haven't seen him listed as such since. Since he's starting so often it would be unfair to him to have such a contract. Some of my other posts are pointing to the Metrostars by rules should be designating more of their roster as "roster protected" and I'm unable to figure this out (Arena, Bradley, Flores + 2 others?).

[ChrisE]

The pdf preseason preview from mlsnet listed Parke as DEV but I haven't seen him listed as such since. Since he's starting so often it would be unfair to him to have such a contract. Some of my other posts are pointing to the Metrostars by rules should be designating more of their roster as "roster protected" and I'm unable to figure this out (Arena, Bradley, Flores + 2 others?).

Mlsnet lists Rico Clark, Mike Magee, Eddie Gaven, and Michael Bradley as P-40's, plus Arena and Flores gives 6, as does Metrostars.com

[swedcrip34]

Mlsnet lists Rico Clark, Mike Magee, Eddie Gaven, and Michael Bradley as P-40's, plus Arena and Flores gives 6, as does Metrostars.com

Over in the Metrostars forum I pasted the google link to the cached version of mlsnet earlier this year stating Magee and Clark graduated p40 and must count against the full roster

[ChrisE]

I guess 6 games into the season, it's time for me to update this. Well, not really, but I feel like it anyway.

From 2002 and an original 16 developmental players, 7 remain in the league, but Chris Roner's out for the year, so 6 are on active rosters.

From 2003, and 28 developmental players, only 10 remain in the league. The sharp decline has to do with MLS keeping Developmental rosters static at 6, and several of the developmental players being mediocre 3rd string goalies.

From 2004, there's 17 developmental players.

The 6 active 2002 DP's have started 25 out of an available 33 games (Alejandro Moreno has not started any of 6, Marshall Leonard has missed two). Of an available 2970 minutes, they've played 2291, 77%. This compared to last year, when all 2002 developmental players pstarted 90 games and played 9022 minutes, about 25% and 27% of available, respectively. The six guys who lasted to this year, however, started 32% of games and played 35% of minutes. Nevertheless, this year marks a pretty huge improvement - whether Matt Behncke and Marshall Leonard will lock down starting spots, it's hard to say, but it seems MLS has gained 7 very solid players, 5 wing backs and 2 forwards, from the 2002 class.


Last year's 28 developmental players started 4.4% of available games and 5.3% of available minutes. The 10 who lasted into 2003 started 12% and played 14% of minutes. This year they're up to 27% in both, but this is largely on the merits of Phil Salyer starting every game and Nat Borchers holding down his spot. It's hard to know what to say about the other players.

This year's 17 have started and played 2.4% and 2.2% respectively - however, only Gary Sullivan has gotten more than 15 minutes. One expects this will increase significantly, I suspect last year's numbers were about the same at this point.

In the USL:

Alex Bengard and Josh Saunders starting for Portland
Chris Brunt, Kevin Friedland, and Jeff Matteo are starting for Minnesota
Chris Bagley is starting for Charleston, Andy Rosenband isn't
Roger Levesque is starting for Seattle
Nick Walls will be starting for Milwaukee
Alex Blake is a sub for Rochester

I don't know if these players would still be playing professionally if they hadn't briefly been in MLS, but I suspect some wouldn't. And, considering how successful they've been, I'd think that failed developmental players could make a pretty good source of relatively young talent for A-league clubs.

Neverthelss, as far as I can tell, Jeff Moore, Birahim Diop, Ibrahim Kante, Andres Murriagui, Trevor Perea, Michael Piserchio, Jake Traeger, and several keepers are currently teamless, possibly retired.

[swedcrip34]

I'll add more later. Quickly, levesque is pretty much on loan from SJ and I still count him as SEN DEV on the SJ roster. I believe Traeger is still DEV on the CLB roster.

[mpruitt]

That list you have Chris is a pretty interesting one. I think it's not suprising that developmental players don't get a whole lot of minutes at the start of the season. I mean by defanition they are 'developing' also, when you're paying a guy a defacto minanum wage there's no pressure to have the guy sit or simply use him as practice fodder. I wouldn't be suprised at all to see those numbers increase as the year goes buy. It seems to me that most guys who are playing in DV spots get more of their chances when injuries or national team call ups come around. Also because there's no pressure to nessicarily play any of them I imagine it takes a little longer for them to prove themselves. However as we've seen with guys like Borchers and Jamil Walker to name two there's certainly ways to work yourself into the lineup.

I'd love to sit down with a couple of MLS coaches and see their oppinions of the developmental player roster opportunity. Obviously it seems as though a lot of these guys are local kids who probably still live at home even. My perspective may be a little bit tainted with Tony Frias III but I wonder on the flip side of Borchers and Walker if some MLS coaches just view the DV guys similarly to walk ons at a major college basketball program.

[ChrisE]

That list you have Chris is a pretty interesting one. I think it's not suprising that developmental players don't get a whole lot of minutes at the start of the season. I mean by defanition they are 'developing' also, when you're paying a guy a defacto minanum wage there's no pressure to have the guy sit or simply use him as practice fodder. I wouldn't be suprised at all to see those numbers increase as the year goes buy. It seems to me that most guys who are playing in DV spots get more of their chances when injuries or national team call ups come around. Also because there's no pressure to nessicarily play any of them I imagine it takes a little longer for them to prove themselves. However as we've seen with guys like Borchers and Jamil Walker to name two there's certainly ways to work yourself into the lineup.

Well, doesn't really look like we got that result this year, Maxim. The only developmental players we really saw earn a place this year were Jordan Cila and Troy Perkins - although what may be happening is a steady improvement (in talent) through the season, MLS coaches don't seem to recognize that. Is it just inertia? Is it a reluctance to break in younger players as the season nears completion? Do players significantly improve in the offseason, for some reason - it seems that way with Kenny Arena, at least. I don't know how players end up getting minutes.

[ChrisE]

I can't wait for the end of the regular season, I ran a little something up on developmental players.

As I've made completely clear, I think developmental players are a great value for MLS teams - I tried (probably poorly) to quantify to some degree what kind of value.

This year the league is paying, approximately, 57.2 (1700000/(30*11*90) dollars per minute played - now, admittedly, some minutes (Eddie Gaven) are worth more than others (Orlando Perez) - but since we don't have much of a way to measure that, I'm going to ignore it. Presumably, developmental player minutes are worth something less than others', but the class of 2001 featured Davy Arnaud, Bryan Namoff, Matt Behncke, Chris Leitch, Marshall Leonard, Alejandro Moreno, and Chris Roner this year - not exactly all bums.

So, then, to determine how much the league is paying developmental players, I assumed that players with developmental contracts are getting $10000, and everybody else is on a minimum contract. Looking at the names, I'm pretty sure that's right, but I'd welcome swedcrip correcting me.

So how much does the league pay per minute for its developmental players? Well, in the players' rookie years, they're not getting much of a break, something around 2/3 average rate. However, this drops significantly as the mediocre developmental players are culled, and the quality ones mature into valuable players. The players from the class of 2001 cost a little over 1/4 what an average player cost this year. The class of 2002 cost 1/3, and that looks likely to decrease next year.

I wanted to take into account the sunk costs of Tony Frias, Mike Nugent, etc. into this year's salaries, but I wasn't exactly sure how.


Chart below indicates $/minute.



2001 2002 2003
Class of 2001 35.0 22.2 15.7
Class of 2002 66.7 19.5
Class of 2003 43.7

[numerista]

Those lucky duckies, they get paid over $2000 an hour. :)

You know, Chris, I'm not sure I see much concrete evidence for the "off-season improvement" idea. After all, in terms of playing time, Kenny Arena's status didn't change a whole lot. This year, in addition to Cila and Perkins, it's probably worth noting that Clanton and Graham have moved up the depth charts, even if they aren't regulars. We've also seen roles won by a lot of younger players who didn't start the season in such strong position ... Dempsey, Wingert, Gros, Cochrane, Mapp, Magee, Eskandarian, Crawford, Saragosa, and Grabavoy all come to mind.

To the extent that the off-season makes a difference, it may have more to do with things like player movement and coaching changes (e.g. Brian Carroll at DC).

[swedcrip34]

What do you mean by "everyone else"? I'm not sure I follow what you're doing. Are you tracking "former" developmental players? The ones socceramerica listed are making what socceramerica listed. The ones not listed are probably making the minimum though I'm not sure if they bump it up 5% for each year played or not, probably don't.

Gaven doesn't count against the cap.

I don't know what you meant by "sunk costs" for Frias and Nugent. Sorry for not reading this closer but it's just plain obvious to me what a great value developmental players have been! I think the challenge is to keep these players from looking overseas or in other industries for work. I think a lot of fringe benefits like cheap housing (some live with local families), etc has been doled out for these players. Some thing I heard about a Kroenke slum!

[ChrisE]

What do you mean by "everyone else"? I'm not sure I follow what you're doing. Are you tracking "former" developmental players? The ones socceramerica listed are making what socceramerica listed. The ones not listed are probably making the minimum though I'm not sure if they bump it up 5% for each year played or not, probably don't.

Gaven doesn't count against the cap.

The league salary cap is 1.7 million dollars (A). This year, each team is going to play 30 games * 90 minutes * 11 players = 29700 minutes (B). So, A/B = $57.2/minute played. Yes, I ignored salaries paid to Project-40's, but putting them in is only going to increase A while B stays the same, which is only going to increase the $/minute, which would only strengthen the case for developmental players. I'm not sure what you're objecting to here.

Yes, I'm tracking anyone who has been a developmental player. Would some of these guys have made teams without the DP slot? Yeah, but probably not many (not Nat Borchers or Davy Arnaud), and I can't think of a better criterion.

When I namedropped you, I was referring to the possibility that, e.g., Nat Borchers got a significant pay raise after doing really well his first year. You pay a lot more attention to the minutiae of contracts, signings, etc. than, I suspect, anybody else here.




I don't know what you meant by "sunk costs" for Frias and Nugent. Sorry for not reading this closer but it's just plain obvious to me what a great value developmental players have been! I think the challenge is to keep these players from looking overseas or in other industries for work. I think a lot of fringe benefits like cheap housing (some live with local families), etc has been doled out for these players. Some thing I heard about a Kroenke slum!

I agree completely. I think developmental players have been a great investment. I'm making a first, crude swipe at quantifying how good of an investment they are.

For sunk costs, my point was, MLS didn't really benefit from the fact that Alex Bengard played 26 minutes in 2001 - they benefitted from the development of seven starters/useful reserves - Arnaud, Behncke, Leitch, Leonard, Moreno, Namoff, Roner. So if you're measuring how much the league benefitted from developmental players, you shouldn't be just counting how much they're paying the succesful ones - you're self-selecting the players that will make you look good.

[ChrisE]

Those lucky duckies, they get paid over $2000 an hour. :)

And they only have to work a few hours a year! Oh, to be a developmental player.


You know, Chris, I'm not sure I see much concrete evidence for the "off-season improvement" idea. After all, in terms of playing time, Kenny Arena's status didn't change a whole lot. This year, in addition to Cila and Perkins, it's probably worth noting that Clanton and Graham have moved up the depth charts, even if they aren't regulars. We've also seen roles won by a lot of younger players who didn't start the season in such strong position ... Dempsey, Wingert, Gros, Cochrane, Mapp, Magee, Eskandarian, Crawford, Saragosa, and Grabavoy all come to mind.

Well, I guess I wasn't really basing it on concrete evidence. And probably far too much of it is based on Kenny Arena. But, regardless of how much playing time he's getting, there are two distinct differences between this year and last year - 1. he's getting significantly better fan ratings on the metrofanatic website. 2. him playing isn't a last resort, and nobody's tremendously worried if he gets put out there.

As for players who have broken into teams this year - most of these guys - Dempsey, Gros, Cochrane, Mapp, Eskandarian, Crawford, Saragosa, Grabavoy - started getting significant playing time in the first third or so of the season. And, presumably, it's going to take the developmental players longer to get up to MLS speed than the (generally) higher picks you listed. But indeed, I agree, that administrative changes are going to make a significant difference in which players are getting minutes. But I don't really think that explains it all.


To the extent that the off-season makes a difference, it may have more to do with things like player movement and coaching changes (e.g. Brian Carroll at DC).

What's 'player movement'? There's no free agency, and MLS coaches aren't just going to jettison a player because they assume they'll be able to find a better rookie. Brian Carroll was a product of a coaching change. I suspect there aren't many players who are suddenly playing because their competition went away - aside from maybe a couple of players a year departing for Europe.