Concacaf Qualifying Format can be change .

[13370]

Good day everyone , the next world cup Qualifying begins In 2012 . Concacaf currently
have 5 Stages , most big name Teams like Mexico , Usa , Costa Rica and others starts at stage 2 to 4 with the fifth being an Intercontinental Playoff . IT is the best Interest of Concacaf , to have a format like Conmebol of 10 nations for a Final round .




I am suggesting this because too many good Teams like Uncaf Champions Panama
and CFU winners Jamaica were left out in a unusual way . For Jamaica , being one of the five CFU Teams they were drawn in the most difficult Group and Panama played an improving central american nation . If Concacaf could leave the Grouping stage and
have one Mega Group like Conmebol , not only will the final round be more exciting
but also the teams from the region will do better at a world cup finals .


My point is , It good for the confederation to have a 10 nation final round
rather than a six nation hexagonal stage, better teams are more likely
to be drawn in , than left out . Please post comments , or Questions
relating to topic .Thanks .

[Ronaldinho11]

I agree with this idea and also think that the final round would be more exciting adding the 6 we have + the likes of canada, jamaica, panama, and guatemala. even though not great teams... they are sure known for putting up a good fight. good post.

[Popol Vuh]

I think the hex should instead be an "Oct" with 8 teams because 6 teams is not enough for 4 possible spots. The best 3rd places should qualify from the previous round. A 10 team final round-robin sounds great too.

[el_cuscatleco]

If it was changed to a final round of 10, then how would the teams qualify for that round? I mean, in CONMEBOL all teams automatically qualify, obviously this couldn't be done in CONCACAF, so would it just be done by qualification like it is now? If so, then there will always be unexpected results and "big teams" being knocked out before the final stage. It would be the same as it is now, although there is a greater chance that "weaker" teams could qualify to the final round, which inturn would lower the level of the competition.

Personally, i think it's fine as it is. But i'm interested in seeing the opinion of others. Good post.

[EvanJ]

Starting with 30-something teams and reducing the field to 10 teams who would then need to play 18 more games would be too many unless CONCACAF started their WCQs in late 2011 rather than 2012. Eliminating the Semifinals and having a final Octagonal (8 teams) would be possible although if 33 or more teams needed to be reduced to 8 without a group stage there would need to be three elimination rounds before the Octagonal and I would rather their be no more than two elimination rounds before the first group stage.

[newtex]

I have some of the same objections as the others. A final single group of 10 would mean 18 games in that round. That would take two years of games so the final group would have to start in early 2012 and play through 2013.

That means that following the World Cup in 2010 you would have about a year to get from 34 or 35 down to 10 teams. That process would have to be short which increases the chances of upsets and means that most teams are eliminated three years before the next World Cup.

I don't see how increasing the final group to 10 really changes much as far as the quality of the teams.

[13370]

I have some of the same objections as the others. A final single group of 10 would mean 18 games in that round. That would take two years of games so the final group would have to start in early 2012 and play through 2013.

That means that following the World Cup in 2010 you would have about a year to get from 34 or 35 down to 10 teams. That process would have to be short which increases the chances of upsets and means that most teams are eliminated three years before the next World Cup.

I don't see how increasing the final group to 10 really changes much as far as the quality of the teams.


Newtex I respect your right to object ; However please be reminded
the current Third Stage of 3 Groups with 4 Teams will be left out,
and same amount of games or less will be played . The new proposal
is a more simple way and take out any scenarios of Groups manipulation .
el_cuscatleo I hope am answering your Question here , Concacaf currently
have 40 members minus 4 french departments, hence 36 Teams usually
vie for world cup Qualifying eliminations .

If we are to have one Mega Group
20 of the less rank National Teams
would play eliminations , which would
be The first stage.

The Top Ten Teams according to FIFA
rankings will join fist stage winners
through a process of eliminations
and thus A TEN NATION MEGA
GROUP IS FORM .

This method by opinion is a better way
to determine the Top 4 Teams.

[tomwilhelm]

The problems with Concacaf's format are more with the early stages than the Hex...

[DLee]

I like the HEX because every game matters. Even the final round of fixtures usually has an impact on the qualifiers.

A ten-team mega table for just 3.5 spots (which could easily be reduced to 3.0 for the 2014 World Cup due to poor Concacaf performances) would have a large number of meaningless games at the end.

If you're 9th-10th place halfway through, you're playing your next 9 games for nothing. These aren't the type of FA's that can be splashing out for travel expenses for 9 meaningless games. St. Kitts? Haiti? And as others have suggested, it would just take way too long.

I actually think the current format of 3 groups of 4 then the Hex is spot on. I just think the 3 groups of 4 stage should be more balanced. The MEX, CAN, HON, JAM group was criminal (and possibly fixed).

[ja2ny]

How about using the same process but change the Hex to a Octo and advance the two best thrid place teams from the semi-finals?

[IASocFan]

How about using the same process but change the Hex to a Octo and advance the two best thrid place teams from the semi-finals?

You need to find game day slots for the additional 4 games!

[Antonio81]

I´m for this. A two year round-robin (like CONMEBOL) would ensure the best teams qualify; any and every SA squad earns their WC qualification with sweat and blood, and its also entertaining from a fan perspective. A group of death in the semi-final round is always certain to keep a possible World Cup contender out. Panama and Jamaica are two examples of teams that should have had an equal chance to qualify with the rest. However ten is a large number, how about eight? I´m not sure we have ten quality teams in CONCACAF at the moment.

[13370]

However ten is a large number, how about eight? I´m not sure we have ten quality teams in CONCACAF at the moment.

Thank you Antonio81 , I Value your opinion . Am sure they are over 10 Teams in Concacaf that can create an exciting finish . The North american teams of Mexico , Usa and Canada are always good contenders , The Uncaf Teams of Costa Rica ,Guatemala , Panama , El Salvador and Honduras always represent . The Caribbean Teams of Trinidad/Tobago , Jamaica , Haiti Cuba and others are good Teams .

Note :
The Mathematical Chances of the Hexagonal Stage for a Team
4/6 x 100/1 = 66.66 %
This is almost Guaranteed , only 2 Teams get eliminated here .
__
The Mathematical chances of a 10 Team Mega Group is
4/10 x 100/1 = 40% , looks more like a Competition if
you ask me , more teams included .


The current Method hexagonal stage do not contains
The best third or fourth place team In concacaf .


Dlee thanks for your comments but Concacaf 3.5 places
seems safe for now and even if a reduction should be
made , it maybe by .25 to 3.25 so a fourth place
will be there to play for .

[newtex]

Newtex I respect your right to object ; However please be reminded
the current Third Stage of 3 Groups with 4 Teams will be left out,
and same amount of games or less will be played . The new proposal
is a more simple way and take out any scenarios of Groups manipulation .
el_cuscatleo I hope am answering your Question here , Concacaf currently
have 40 members minus 4 french departments, hence 36 Teams usually
vie for world cup Qualifying eliminations .

If we are to have one Mega Group
20 of the less rank National Teams
would play eliminations , which would
be The first stage.

The Top Ten Teams according to FIFA
rankings will join fist stage winners
through a process of eliminations
and thus A TEN NATION MEGA
GROUP IS FORM .

This method by opinion is a better way
to determine the Top 4 Teams.

I'm not sure I follow your plan.

Let's say we have 36 teams that start the process. You are giving the top 10 a bye through to the last elimination stage before the final big group so we need to get 26 teams down to 10. So that would be something like this:

Round 1: #36-#25 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 6 teams

Round 2: 6 winners from Round 1 plus teams #24-#11 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 10 teams

Round 3: 10 winners from Round 2 plus teams #10-#1 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 10 teams

Round 4: 10 team round-robin

Is this close?

I could probably live with this although teams like Panama and Jamaica would be reduced to a home-and-away series to get into the final group rather than through the current Round 3 group stage of six games. The potential for good teams to be left out is always there.

I'm still not sure that the USA and Mexico playing more games against teams like Cuba, Panama, Canada, Haiti, Guatemala, and El Salvador (the current #7-#12 CONCACAF teams) really does a lot of good in terms of improvement.

[silverlion]

Trying to come up with a new qualifying format is like solving some ancient riddle, its impossible. There are just too many teams, only 3.5 spots and not enough time.


I do like the idea of an Octagon or a double Hex, but the key is eliminating those island nations early in the process.

The double Hex would work like this:
Instead of having the semi-final round, we would split the 12 teams into two groups of six, the two teams that finish first go to the WC, the second placed teams play each other for the other direct spot and the loser plays the South American 5th place. We would cut down the number of games to 10 from 16 for most teams, one of the 2nd place team would play 12 and the other 14 (12+2 vs Conmebol 5).

The Octagon:
Another option is to eliminate more teams in the 2nd round so that we only have 8 teams left and we can have the "Octo" start in August of 2012 instead of having a semi-final round and a Hex. This method would cut down the numbers of games to 14 for all teams except the number 4th teams that would play Conmebol 5.

Both methods cut down the number of games and add three more months which means more teams with a chance to qualify, more time for teams to prepare, less pressure to be ready, and more time to play A-Fifa friendlies with full teams. With either system Canada, Guatemala, Jamaica would still be in it and Sven would have more time with his full squad in Fifa dates. The current system is a joke and an insult to most teams in Concacaf and it doesn't even benefit anyone, not even those crap nations that Warner wants to help.

[tomwilhelm]

My suggestion from quite awhile back...

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13330762&postcount=25

Pot A: (6 finalists)
Mexico, USA, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Trinidad and Tobago, Panama

Pot B: (6 semi-finalists)
Canada, El Salvador, Honduras, Jamaica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines

Pot C: (6 3nd round 2nd place teams)
Barbados, Bermuda, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Surinam

Pot D: (6 3nd round 3rd place teams)
Bahamas, Saint Lucia, Grenada, Antigua and Barbuda, Dominican Republic, Netherlands Antilles

Pot E: Belize, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Dominica, Aruba, Guyana, Anguilla, US Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos Islands, Montserrat, Puerto Rico

Round 1:
Knock-out, Pot E only
1 or 2 byes, 4 or 5 home/away matches (depending on how many teams choose to qualify)
6 teams advance

Round 2:
Knock-out, Pot D v Round 1 winners
6 teams advance

Round 3:
6 groups of 3 teams (1 each from B, C, and Round 2)
6 Group winners advance

Semi-final:
3 groups of 4 (2 each from Pot A and Round 3)
1st and 2nd advance

Finals:
1 group of 6 as per previous qualifying competitions

If, by some incredible miracle of modern science or magic, a Pot E team was to make it all the way to the final round, they would play 24 games.

More realistically, Pot B and C teams that make the final round would play 20 games total.

Pot A teams would play 16 games.


I think this works because:
1. It gives minnows meaningful games against other minnows, while not wasting everyone's time on match-ups like Mexico vs St. Lucia.
2. It doesn't inundate the poorest minnows with too many matches.
3. It DOES provide a small group phase for the big minnows and the down-cycle mid-tiers so they can hone their game and hopefully move up a notch.
4. The pot you are in is much less likely to determine your fate. Or to put it differently, the slightly more graduated system ensures more competitive matches.

[13370]

I'm not sure I follow your plan.

Let's say we have 36 teams that start the process. You are giving the top 10 a bye through to the last elimination stage before the final big group so we need to get 26 teams down to 10. So that would be something like this:

Round 1: #36-#25 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 6 teams

Round 2: 6 winners from Round 1 plus teams #24-#11 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 10 teams

Round 3: 10 winners from Round 2 plus teams #10-#1 - head-to-head playoffs which eliminate 10 teams

Round 4: 10 team round-robin

Is this close?

I could probably live with this although teams like Panama and Jamaica would be reduced to a home-and-away series to get into the final group rather than through the current Round 3 group stage of six games. The potential for good teams to be left out is always there.

I'm still not sure that the USA and Mexico playing more games against teams like Cuba, Panama, Canada, Haiti, Guatemala, and El Salvador (the current #7-#12 CONCACAF teams) really does a lot of good in terms of improvement.
Here is the corrected way, a Method for WCQ Before 2014.

The Top three finishers in 2009 world cup Qualifiers should automatically get byes into final stage of ten nation Tournament . Another 7 Teams get byes for Stage 3 base on FIFA ranking .

Stage 1 : 28 Teams plays eliminations which includes Dutch antilles
islands of Curacao , and Bonaire .
Stage 2 : 14 Teams plays eliminations winners move on .
Stage 3 : winners of stage 2 (7 Teams Total ) meets the 7 Teams which earn byes base on ranking and other things factored in .
Stage 4: Seven Teams from Stage 3, plus three top seeds, form a Mega Group .


I agree this method of Ten Teams would last three months longer, and
possible for alot of useless games . However it is a more honest way .
People , Concacaf have alot of Teams and I believe the current system
of Hexagon is not fair because it only eliminates 2 teams .A Mega
Group Includes more Teams .

[tomwilhelm]

Here is the corrected way, a Method for WCQ Before 2014.

The Top three finishers in 2009 world cup Qualifiers should automatically get byes into final stage of ten nation Tournament . Another 7 Teams get byes for Stage 3 base on FIFA ranking .

Stage 1 : 28 Teams plays eliminations which includes Dutch antilles
islands of Curacao , and Bonaire .
Stage 2 : 14 Teams plays eliminations winners move on .
Stage 3 : winners of stage 2 (7 Teams Total ) meets the 7 Teams which earn byes base on ranking and other things factored in .
Stage 4: Seven Teams from Stage 3, plus three top seeds, form a Mega Group .


I agree this method of Ten Teams would last three months longer, and
possible for alot of useless games . However it is a more honest way .
People , Concacaf have alot of Teams and I believe the current system
of Hexagon is not fair because it only eliminates 2 teams .A Mega
Group Includes more Teams .

But if a mid-tier team like Haiti, El Salvador, Panama or even Canada get an unlucky draw in Stage 3, their WCQ might be just 2 games long.

I don't think that's good.

[13370]

But if a mid-tier team like Haiti, El Salvador, Panama or even Canada get an unlucky draw in Stage 3, their WCQ might be just 2 games long.

I don't think that's good.
The current qualifying format Panama played only 2 games , Nicaragua
and st kitts also . I think Panama got a unlucky draw , knowing they were in the Hexagon stage a season before .With this new method Mid-Tier Teams are at an advantage cause they according to FIFA Rankings receive byes , please remember the smaller or less rank teams usually plays in stages 1 and 2 . In stage 3 there is a possibility of 1 or 2 Strong Match ups. This process eliminate the current Stage 3 Groups and last round of an Hex being under represented of only six teams . I am unhappy with the Grouping stage for the past 2 wcq .

[Daniel from Montréal]

I'd do the same format as now, but scrap the Hex and make it a double-Hex (12 teams, with the 12 "finalists", currently "semi-finalists").

Top teams qualify, then second-place teams face off for that 3rd and 3.5 spot.

The big "problem" is that there's no Mexico-US game in the qualifiers. Most other confederations rarely have their two best rated teams face off in qualifying (except CONMEBOL), but I can see it being a problem in CONCACAF.

For example, it would yield this field, using the January 09 FIFA rankings (snaking rankings):

Group A
USA
Costa Rica
Jamaica
Panama
Canada
El Salvador

Group B
Mexico
Honduras
T&T
Cuba
Haiti
Guatemala