Einmal Löwe - Immer Löwe / TSV 1860 München Official Thread 08/09 III [R]

[Jackwarner Issatwat]

I normally just lurk here, but mates, I must profess that the post on why Reuter was let go was simply brilliant. It was the dog's bollocks to be certain.:D

[Jackwarner Issatwat]

So, silly question, but I don't know the 1860 fan situation and how the club is formed. Anyone care to enlighten a silly Brit on how things work in Jerryland? (Sorry):cool:

[Lionhead]

Clearly this club's leaders are under the intense illusion that 1860 is prepared for promotion. Promotion by 2010 is the slogan. Are the kidding!!!! That's next year!!!! We have many players out of contract in summer in both the first and second teams. We have gaps in many key positions. We have an operating deficit which every years lands 3m worth of debt in December which must be paid. We can barely compete in the 2.BL CONSISTENTLY right now. How the F can we hope for promotion? As I see it, Kurz is already gone despite Stevic saying he is coach. Most normally people would expect 1860 to lose at Mainz this weekend. I'll bet Kurz is toast if he loses. IF the the board is serious about promotion by 2010 they will likely hire a "name" to take the reigns. That won't be cheap after having to pay out Reuter AND Kurz.
[/LIST]I cannot tell you how pissed and depressed I am right now. I have not see gross incompetence at 1860 like this until the Wildmoser house of cards fell apart and revealed the lies he was spinning. *sigh*

Calm down, LB. It's not all bad. It's a new beginning, not the beginning of the end. For years on end we heard those winging fans crying out for sponsors and investors. Now that we have the Schwarzer Group behind us it's still not good enough. WHY? I don't care who gives us the cash to buy key players we need. I am glad we have a Stevic backed by money instead of a penny pinching Reuter with no backing. Kurz? I'm glad to see him leaving. He has no concept. We need someone with a name, but please not red Auge.

I look forward to the new faces. It can only get better. Promotion by 2010? It's imperativ if this club is to survive. It is only possible with a cash injection.:)

[footyfan1]

Keith, did you watch any of the press conference? A few things really stood out:

No, I didn't. Things are getting really crazy here at work and I haven't had time to fully follow the 1860 soap opera.


The Three Stooges (1860 Board) are absolutely delusional. They spent SOOO much time fending off questions - and rather valid questions at that - about the new investor and timing of the whole Reuter thing. The Board was visibly pissed off that the press was asking so many questions about these things. Welcome to the jungle boys.

How do people like that get to be in charge of football clubs? Because they were good at something else??


The board is still working the party line that Reuter has an offer on the table. It was hysterical when they first mentioned that to the press because the whole room erupted in laughter and the board was totally stone-faced. They honestly believe that no decision has been made despite the fact Reuter left the grounds 15 mins earlier and is on tape as saying "I've been let go and have not seen any new contract. I have a current contract but they have just hired a new sporting director. We cannot have two. I have been offered to retain my current other positions but that is not acceptible"!!!! Do those moron actually believe the shit they spew or they are just really good pathological lairs and can hide their TRUE intentions.

Dude, the one thing I've found out about "important" people is that much of the time, they can get people to believe their bullshit because they truly believe it themselves.

But I think they are going to make another announcement soon that Reuter turned them down and turned his back on 1860 and the idiot fan base will believe it.


Stevic looked week. VERY week. He allowed this whole PK to devolve into chaos. Now, he IS just the sporting director....officially. He might just be playing the part given to him or he may not be part of this whole clandestine thing. But I find it hard to believe that Stevic comes to 1860, behind the back of his "friend" Reuter, with only the sporting director job as an offer. I would bet money that the board told him he will be full director if Reuter steps down.

Or when they do what I just said above.......



Anyone who knows what Reuter said when he left BVB would know where he stands on the issue of being just full director (and not sporting director included).

Dude, Reuter was never Sport Director or Club Manager at BVB. He was the Sport Director's Deputy. And since the Sport Director (Zorc) really had no authority at that time (Michael Meier mostly did the job Zorc was supposed to be doing and is doing now), Reuter mostly did nothing except show up and collect a paycheck. Stefan Reuter didn't want that. This guy is f#cking serious about his work. FCN or BVB would do themselves good to pick Reuter up.


This whole "replacement" of Reuter thing was done MONTHS ago, perhaps as early as November!!!! ANYONE who would go behind the back of someone is a slimy, measly, miserable wretch of a person who is not worthy enough to be spat upon!!!!! I am sooo fed up with the board and the club at this point BELIEVE ME I have contemplated NOT renewing my membership in protest and sending them my Urkunde. NOT because of letting Reuter go, but because of the Wildmoser-style way in which this freak'n group continues to operate.

I believe the idiots think more money is the answer to their problems, not realizing that patience would have helped because Reuter seemed to have the club on the right track. Instead of doing what needs to be done, these idiots want a "quick fix". And if there is one thing I've learned from being a BVB fan, it is that "quick fixes" don't ever seem work. Or even if they do at first, they never last long.

Clearly this club's leaders are under the intense illusion that 1860 is prepared for promotion. Promotion by 2010 is the slogan. Are the kidding!!!!

The slogan, I did see. Again, I think they believe their own bullshit and they truly believe this new Serbian money is the answer to all their prayers.

F#ckin' idiots!


That's next year!!!!


That's pretty much what I said to Wendy about it last night. Only I said to her, "Promotion next year? Are they f#ckin' high? They just dumped the only guy in management who can find his ass with both hands and they're talking promotion??"

Again man, people believing their own bullshit. But the only thing we can do is vent our anger and hope the SOBs actually find a way to pull it off.


We have many players out of contract in summer in both the first and second teams. We have gaps in many key positions. We have an operating deficit which every years lands 3m worth of debt in December which must be paid. We can barely compete in the 2.BL CONSISTENTLY right now. How the F can we hope for promotion?

Apparently, the Serbian money is magic. LOL!!


As I see it, Kurz is already gone despite Stevic saying he is coach. Most normally people would expect 1860 to lose at Mainz this weekend. I'll bet Kurz is toast if he loses. IF the the board is serious about promotion by 2010 they will likely hire a "name" to take the reigns. That won't be cheap after having to pay out Reuter AND Kurz.

I agree with your outrage on Reuter, but I've already said, if they can get Augenthaler, then I'm all for sacking Kurz. Kurz just can't seem to move the team past this "lower mid-table" level. Sure, he's doing all right with what he has, but even this young team has the potential for more and that stinker they gave us against Freiburg was f#cking shameful. It was f#cking uncalled for. They looked like an unprepared, unmotivated team. I was telling the guy behind the bar at Champions that they looked like they wanted the match to be over so they could get back to the hotel for the Super Bowl Party. He laughed, but said he thought I was right.

I think it is time to give a more experienced coach a shot.

If they sack Kurz and bring in Augenthaler, that will be the one thing I think they will have done right in this entire thing.

I like Kurz, but I think he's taken this team as far as he can take them........

The fans will protest, but a strong management team will make moves the fans don't like if it is truly for the good of the club.

The best example I can give of it was when BVB brought Jens Lehmann in.


I cannot tell you how pissed and depressed I am right now. I have not see gross incompetence at 1860 like this until the Wildmoser house of cards fell apart and revealed the lies he was spinning. *sigh*

What's worse Garry? I'm in no way defending Wildmoeser, but while he had delusions of grandeur, he did think he was moving the club forward. He knew he was taking chances, but he gambled. He should have come clean when he lost, but again, people think they can get by and they believe their own bullshit.

We had the same thing in Dortmund with Dr. Niebaum (club president) and Michael Meier. Only they didn't commit crimes.

The current guys running 1860 seem to actually be stupid to me. And stupidity in football is only magnified by impatience.

As I said before, they seem to think that fast money is the solution to their problems and they stabbed the one guy who knew what he was doing in the back.

I think they simply sold Reuter out. People in Germany cry about Dietmar Hopp and what his money might do to the game, but I think the 1860 board are now the biggest whores and backstabbers in the German game.

[footyfan1]

Calm down, LB. It's not all bad. It's a new beginning, not the beginning of the end. For years on end we heard those winging fans crying out for sponsors and investors. Now that we have the Schwarzer Group behind us it's still not good enough. WHY? I don't care who gives us the cash to buy key players we need. I am glad we have a Stevic backed by money instead of a penny pinching Reuter with no backing. Kurz? I'm glad to see him leaving. He has no concept. We need someone with a name, but please not red Auge.

I look forward to the new faces. It can only get better. Promotion by 2010? It's imperativ if this club is to survive. It is only possible with a cash injection.:)



Fools and their money are soon parted.

[LoewenBoy]

WARNING: RANT AHEAD....Slow down now

Calm down, LB. It's not all bad. It's a new beginning, not the beginning of the end.
Not all bad? Perhaps, but only time will tell. With a board as inept and incompetent as we have I can only imagine what is in store. They want promotion by 2010? Are they nuts? With what $$$? We operate at a deficit each year, thanks to half-wits like these three who let the likes of Wildmoser run rampant for YEARS without saying a word in the Aufsichtsrat. Where will the money come from to make up the deficit and pay down the debt we amass if we cannot correct the deficit? We cannot even THINK of getting players until our operational deficit is reduced. That's EXACTLY the type of thinking that loses licenses, LH. Seriously!


For years on end we heard those winging fans crying out for sponsors and investors. Now that we have the Schwarzer Group behind us it's still not good enough. WHY? I don't care who gives us the cash to buy key players we need.
I agree to a point. I am not against the new investors, nor am I against their 20% stake in the club. As long as they are a solid investor that's great. But the whole circumstances around HOW Stevic came to "power" is a bit dark. Did the new investors insist upon Stevic being named sporting director? Stevic is supposed to be a friend of Reuter. Nice friend. If he does this to friends what will he do to the club? At any rate, I agree we needed new money, but not at the expense of Reuter.


I am glad we have a Stevic backed by money instead of a penny pinching Reuter with no backing.
LH, you make great points and then you say stuff like this. Do you not get there would be NO 1860 without Reuter. That man, along with Ziffzer, held 1860 on course, kept costs down, sold key players to keep us afloat, renegotiated key contracts, reduced out overall debt burden, reduced our operating deficit (which the current board had a hand in APPROVING of all things) by 75% and was in the process of renegotiating the Allianz operational contracts to get THAT reduced so that we COULD afford to stay in business. Had all that not been done, this club would NOT have a license and would be playing in the RLs right now. How freak'n fun would THAT be for the fans. No, I am sorry, but fans who cannot see these facts and thank Reuter for doing it are not fans. They are disgruntled, mindless sheep who will parrot whatever the board wants them to or the first thing they read on a 1860 fan forum.


Kurz? I'm glad to see him leaving. He has no concept. We need someone with a name, but please not red Auge.
I agree Kurz may not be the right man for promotion, but I do think he is the right man for now. We cannot afford anyone else. Who can we afford? How can we afford to pay off Kurz, Reuter, Ziffzer (still has a contract we are paying, did you know that?) AND hire a new coach AND get new players, all with an annual operating DEFICIT of over 3m Euros? How? The new investor is not putting THAT much $$ to begin with. Get real, man.


I look forward to the new faces. It can only get better. Promotion by 2010? It's imperative if this club is to survive. It is only possible with a cash injection.:)

With all due respect, I don't think I have seen more contradictory statements in a single paragraph. Let's take them one at a time:
New Faces: I look forward to them too, but only if they are the right faces. We differ on this point clearly. The new players? Sure, why not. The new sport director? Don't trust him simply by the way he got the position from a person he calls "friend". That's back-stabbing in my book.
"It can only get better": OMG, what color is the sky on the planet you live on? How on God's green Earth can it ONLY get better. It most certainly can ALSO get worse if the things I pointed out above are not addressed. And this board has shown they have no desire to address those things. Welcome to the Obamaization of 1860!
Promotion 2010: For use to survive we need promotion by 2010? Really? Why? What is so magical about next year that we will cease to exist if we don't? Forget that. How are we going to DO that without money? Who is going to invest in a club that is LOSING money? Would YOU invest your money in stock that is LOSING money? Or in a company whose board is full of financially challenged malcontents? We cannot get investors until costs are controlled and we become something ATTRACTIVE to invest in; meaning, we have to show we are not LOSING money anymore. Second, we have to show we can manage our money INTELLIGENTLY. Third, once we have the $$ we need to get the right people. Fourth, in time, with the right people we can win promotion. Nothing magic about it. We have not even done #1 or #2 yet, how can you state that 2010 promotion is imperative to survival? Without the rest it is not possible!!!
Cash Injection: My friend, here you redeem yourself but in the wrong order. If you truly understand this, then you know that cost containment is FIRST. Then we reduce operating costs, eliminate deficits and debt and build credit. Then, with time, comes investors....serious investors with cash and confidence in the club....and not just the guy in the big chair, but in the board as well. AFTER all that we will have $$$ to buy players and work to wards promotion. That cannot be done in a year.
You seem a reasonable guy. I understand your passion for the club. But you cannot let passion for the club blind you to the facts of business....especially in a global financial environment we have today where there is even MORE intense scrutiny on investments, creating shareholder value and getting (forget increasing) return on investment.

If 1860 fans TRULY believe this spew they are hurling, please tell them I expect them to go out today and buy shares of Ford, GM, and Chrysler. For those companies embody 1860 on a much larger scale. If such fans truly believe any business would invest in a flailing company, let THEM put THEIR money where their mouth is.

[LoewenBoy]

What's worse Garry? I'm in no way defending Wildmoeser, but while he had delusions of grandeur, he did think he was moving the club forward. He knew he was taking chances, but he gambled. He should have come clean when he lost, but again, people think they can get by and they believe their own bullshit.
Ambition is one thing. Lying, extortion, moeny laundering and racketeering is another. We had the latter under Wildmoser and did not know it because the SAME BOARD put their head in the sand. To be fair, these guys were not on board, but they were part of the inner circle of power for the board in power at the time. They knew and did nothing OR put their head in the sand.



I think they simply sold Reuter out. People in Germany cry about Dietmar Hopp and what his money might do to the game, but I think the 1860 board are now the biggest whores and backstabbers in the German game.
There is a Photoshop response in there somewhere.

BTW, I knew Reuter was not sporting director at BVB. Did not make that clear in my rant. My point was that at BVB he was marketing and sponsoring director and wanted more. Anyone at 1860 with half a brain should know that he does not want a similar position with us like that if he turned it down at a successful BL club. I mean, THAT is just moronic.

[footyfan1]

Ambition is one thing. Lying, extortion, moeny laundering and racketeering is another. We had the latter under Wildmoser and did not know it because the SAME BOARD put their head in the sand. To be fair, these guys were not on board, but they were part of the inner circle of power for the board in power at the time. They knew and did nothing OR put their head in the sand.

Very true. Again, I wasn't trying to justify what they did, but put out what could have been their reasoning for doing it.



There is a Photoshop response in there somewhere.

LMAO!! Go for it man!!


BTW, I knew Reuter was not sporting director at BVB. Did not make that clear in my rant. My point was that at BVB he was marketing and sponsoring director and wanted more. Anyone at 1860 with half a brain should know that he does not want a similar position with us like that if he turned it down at a successful BL club. I mean, THAT is just moronic.

Right. His official position was Deputy to Zorc, but yes, marketing and sponsoring was the bulk of his responsibility and what sucked is that at that time, we already had good contracts in place.

As I said, the man is dead f#cking serious about his work and any club would be lucky to have him.

I hope the new group at 1860 can pull off what they say they are going to do, but like you, I find it highly unlikely.

I will be ecstatic if I am in the process of being proven wrong one year from today.

[LoewenBoy]

I will be ecstatic if I am in the process of being proven wrong one year from today.
If they get promoted in one year I will buy 10 rounds at am Rosengarten inw Westpark.

If they manage to get their finances inline withing the next 3 years I will buy a lifetime membership to the club. That's 1860 Euros, folks. I am willing to MY money where my mouth is.:cool:

[footyfan1]

If they get promoted in one year I will buy 10 rounds at am Rosengarten inw Westpark.

If they manage to get their finances inline withing the next 3 years I will buy a lifetime membership to the club. That's 1860 Euros, folks. I am willing to MY money where my mouth is.:cool:

I won't go that far at the moment, but I believe you'll do it! LOL!!!

[LoewenBoy]

I won't go that far at the moment, but I believe you'll do it! LOL!!!
I am THAT confident 1860 cannot pull it off in the timeframes discussed.

[LoewenBoy]

Pic from a show in Muenchen this week for "Skins", the UnderArmour of Germany. Ledgerwood and Beda sandwiching the future Mrs. Loewenboy.:D

Dunno who she is, but ouch!!!!

http://www.tsv1860.de/media/images/archiv/bildergalerien/2008_2009/2009-02-03_skins_ispo/090203_Skins_samp11.jpg

[footyfan1]

Pic from a show in Muenchen this week for "Skins", the UnderArmour of Germany. Ledgerwood and Beda sandwiching the future Mrs. Loewenboy.:D

Dunno who she is, but ouch!!!!

http://www.tsv1860.de/media/images/archiv/bildergalerien/2008_2009/2009-02-03_skins_ispo/090203_Skins_samp11.jpg


Where's Beda's right hand? I know where it would be if it was my hand, but he's French, so it probably isn't there! LOL!! :D

[goindownsouth]

I won't go that far at the moment, but I believe you'll do it! LOL!!!

I believe he would do it as well!

[panicfc]

Where's Beda's right hand? I know where it would be if it was my hand, but he's French, so it probably isn't there! LOL!!

I think he's holding Ledgerwood's hand ;)

Why isn't that babe Miss 1860?

Also, isn't Garry married?

:p

[LoewenBoy]

I think he's holding Ledgerwood's hand ;)
Why isn't that babe Miss 1860? Also, isn't Garry married?

Unfortunately, Mrs. LB suffered an "ironing accident" shortly after I saw this picture. She is in critical condition and may not make it. While I am saddened by the loss I am happy to welcome the new Mrs. LB on board.

I would vote her Miss Hasen Rasen any day!!!!

[Note: I essentially rewrote 1860's official press statement about Reuter inputting my own stuff :D]

[russ99]

Ok, I'm away from the web (and thus 1860) with lots of busy days at work for a week and THIS happens?!?

Yikes.

Not sure what to think. Seems to me an awful lot like how West Ham got played by the management company in the Tevez and part-ownership deal.

Doesn't bode well... it's getting to the point where I wonder if a fresh start with completely new leadership in the Oberliga might not be the worst idea.

[LoewenBoy]

it's getting to the point where I wonder if a fresh start with completely new leadership in the Oberliga might not be the worst idea.
We had what we needed....we just pissed it away. Its like being married to a hot wife who cooks, cleans, drinks beer, knows football and does everything else you want....but leaves the toilet seat down. So you get divorced. Makes no sense until you enter the dating pool again and see what you had to begin with. *shrug*

Where is that picture of the hot chick in Skins again?Oh yeah, a few lines above....:p

[Edit: Was able to get Mrs. LB in a photo without those two geeks....muuuuchhh better!]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=442&pictureid=2510

[LoewenBoy]

Kurz may not be the right trainer, but there is no denying that his manner and methods in dealing with players are professional through and through. Just watch this interview (http://www.eyep.tv/index.php?id=75&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=2634&cHash=93b674f35f). Waht impressed me the most was persistent questions about how bad the team was, who was at fault, what needed to be done. Kurz response? He takes care of the "dirty laundry" in private and not in public, that everyone knows what they need to do and it does not need to be discussed with the media. My bet is the players really appreciate that.

[russ99]

Where is that picture of the hot chick in Skins again?Oh yeah, a few lines above....

[Edit: Was able to get Mrs. LB in a photo without those two geeks....muuuuchhh better!]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=442&pictureid=2510

Niice.

Although I think she stands out even more in the original pic - in the shadow of Beda's epic bad hair... :D