The U23 defense

[Sandon Mibut]

What a difference a year makes.

A year ago, many of us - including moi were saying that for all the progress American soccer had made with youn attacking players turning pro at an early age, there was a gauling lack of young pros among our youth national deam defenders, holding mids and goalkeepers.

Today, things look much better and its hard not to imagine how this will have nothing but a solid impact for the 23s in qualifying and in Athens.

For the first time, there is depth among pro players at almost all of the defensive positions, though there is still only 1 GK in the U23 pool who is a pro.

BACKS
Nelson Akwari, NY/NJ MetroStars
Jose Burciaga, Kansas City Wizards
Kelly Gray, Chicago Fire
Oguchi Onyewu, Metz (France)
Phil Salyer, Werder Bremen (Germany)
Aaron Shepherd, Cambuur Leeuwarden (Holland)
Frankie Simek, Arsenal (England)
Seth Trembly, Colorado Rapids
Zak Whitbred, Liverpool (England)
Alex Yi, Royal Antwerp (Belgium)

D-MIDS
David Johnson, Willem II (Holland)
Jesus Ochoa, Los Angeles Galaxy
Jordan Stone, Dallas Burn
(and Gray can also play here)

GKs
D.J. Countess, Dallas Burn

There are still some college boys who need to turn pro ASAP to keep up - Ricky Lewis, David Stokes, Chad Marshall, Ryan Cochrane, CJ Klaas and Chefik Simo, Ricardo Clark, Doug Warren, Steve Cronin and a few others - but we have a lot more pro defenders today than we did a year ago.

What I find curious is that while MLS has done a great job of signing young attacking players like Beasley, Convey, Quaranta, Buddle etc..., most of the defenders seem to have ended up in Europe.

To the naked eye, it certainly looks like MLS has made signing and developing attacking players a priority but hasn't been nearly as concerned about signing backs.

My only theory on this is that because they put up flashy numbers, MLS is more willing to open its check book up to sign a Quaranta or Eddie Johnson but it only offers the minimum to the likes of Yi and Onyewu and they aren't going give up college for the MLS mimimum. For a nice Euro salary, yes. But for 24K? No.

That said, I don't care where they've turned pro, I'm just glad they're playing somewhere and out of the college environment.

[maverick]

So basically, Sandon, you're saying that the odds of having a single college player on our Olympic Roster in Athens is...

zero.

Has that EVER happened before? Wasn't it just "yesterday" that Arena was starting NUMEROUS college kids in 1996 in Atlanta?!? Amazing... :D

[Dsocc]

Originally posted by maverick
So basically, Sandon, you're saying that the odds of having a single college player on our Olympic Roster in Athens is...

zero.



And that's probably as it should be.

[Bora Fan]

<<To the naked eye, it certainly looks like MLS has made signing and developing attacking players a priority but hasn't been nearly as concerned about signing backs.>>

Dude, half of your list is made up of MLS players. I think it's more of a percieved v. real emphasis. The offensive players are the ones who get all the ink - who have an easier route to the National Team and who are featured in the Strike Force.

When you think about it though MLS has gone after Danny Califf and other defenders from the youth/college ranks.

[Sandon Mibut]

Actually, the only player on the 1996 Olympic roster who was still in college was Billy Walsh, who was at Virginia and transferred to Rutgers after the Olympics.

The difference is how long those players had been pro.

Of the 1996 roster, besides Walsh and the 3 overage players - Keller, Lalas and Reyna - most of the entire team had just left college and joined MLS that year so at most they had a half-year of pro experience and that was coming in a brand-spanking new league.

To review, Imad Baba, Frankie Hejduk, Miles Joseph, Matt McKeon, Clint Peay, Brandon Pollard, Eddie Pope, Damian Silvera, Chris Snitko and A.J. Wood had never played pro soccer before MLS started in 1996.

Brian Maisonneuve was part of the 1995 Richmond Kickers team that won the USL and USOC double but spent most of the season rehabbing his knee and barely played.

Nelson Vargas had been in the reserve teams of some Euro clubs and has played some minor league ball.

Jovan Kirovski had just finished his last season with ManU's reserve team before transferring to Borussia Dortmund.

So while only 1 player on the team was still in college, there was not a lot of pro experience on the 1996 Olympic team.

BTW, in hindsight, it's hard to believe that Zach Thornton, Matt Jordan or Kevin Hartman was passed over for Chris Snitko, that Clint Peay and Brandon Pollard made it while Greg Vanney, CJ Brown, Carey Talley and Brandon Predeaux did not, that Damian Silvera, Nelson Vargas and Imad Baba were chosen over Eddie Lewis, Steve Ralston and Chris Klein and AJ Wood and Miles Joseph were picked and Ante Razov and Clint Mathis weren't.

I'm not blaming Bruce, per se, though some of his choices sure seem questionable now. But it just does to show how the pro game is a much better indicator and weeding out device for top players than the college game is.

And, to the other point, in no way do I see a player who is still in college and not a pro by the sping of 2004 making the Olympic team. In fact, unless Doug Warren beats out Steve Cronin for the backup GK job, I don't see anyone who played 4 years of college ball and then went pro making the Athens Olympic team or the qualifying team, for that matter.

[metroflip73]

Steve Cronin could be the only collegian, but he'd get no PT.

[Shaster]

MLS is stupid. A good center defender has a very good marketing value in world market. Some of center defenders like Marshall were ready to turn PRO after U-17 WC, but MLS wasn't really interested.

[davide]

Originally posted by Shaster
MLS is stupid. A good center defender has a very good marketing value in world market. Some of center defenders like Marshall were ready to turn PRO after U-17 WC, but MLS wasn't really interested.

No, MLS tried to sign Marshall to a Pro-40 contract. He wasn't interested though. Marshall would rather play in Europe.

[Sandon Mibut]

Well, there's interested, and then there's intere$ted, if you know what I'm sayin'.

I'm sure they would have liked to have signed Marshall. But, did they want to sign him enough to make him an offer that would be enough to get him to turn down Stanford or what he could - key word being could - make abroad?

[davide]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
Well, there's interested, and then there's intere$ted, if you know what I'm sayin'.

I'm sure they would have liked to have signed Marshall. But, did they want to sign him enough to make him an offer that would be enough to get him to turn down Stanford or what he could - key word being could - make abroad?

Of course not. I'm sure MLS gave him the exact offer they gave the other players from Bradenton.

But, during the World Cup the Riverside PE newspaper had a short story about local products Landon Donovan, Chad Marshall, Brandon Owens and David Johnson. Marshall said something to the effect that he didn't think he was ready to play professional soccer. I'll try to find the exact quote later.

[Karl K]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
BTW, in hindsight, it's hard to believe that Zach Thornton, Matt Jordan or Kevin Hartman was passed over for Chris Snitko, that Clint Peay and Brandon Pollard made it while Greg Vanney, CJ Brown, Carey Talley and Brandon Predeaux did not, that Damian Silvera, Nelson Vargas and Imad Baba were chosen over Eddie Lewis, Steve Ralston and Chris Klein and AJ Wood and Miles Joseph were picked and Ante Razov and Clint Mathis weren't.

I'm not blaming Bruce, per se, though some of his choices sure seem questionable now. But it just does to show how the pro game is a much better indicator and weeding out device for top players than the college game is.


This is interesting, in that I think Bruce would agree with you that his choices back then, in retrospect, were quite questionable.

But if you don't have a context in which to make talent evaluations, you are going to make a few real bonehead ones.

Certain picks -- like a Reyna, who even in college was obviously far superior to ANY player out there -- are always going to be a no brainer.

We've been spoiled -- yes fans, the word is spoiled -- by six years of 1st division domestic soccer. We all have a much better sense now of what it takes for an American player to compete on a world stage.

Recall that when Bruce first came to DC United, he largely revamped his roster after about 10 games or so? He too was learning on the job -- and learning fast. There's a reason he won the first two years -- namely because he COULD make the transition to professional soccer, and DID understand that, "Man, this game is different."

Clive Charles -- and don't get me wrong, Charles has been great for US Soccer -- should be the last coach to bring a collegiate mind-set to the Olympic games. It should be a purely professional activity now, which is appropriate.

[kyledane]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
To review, Imad Baba, Frankie Hejduk, Miles Joseph, Matt McKeon, Clint Peay, Brandon Pollard, Eddie Pope, Damian Silvera, Chris Snitko and A.J. Wood had never played pro soccer before MLS started in 1996.
I could be remembering this wrong, but I thought that the players who were seniors in '95/'96 (your list here) didn't even join their MLS clubs until after the Olympics. In any case, their MLS experience was not more than a month or two since back then the league started in April and the Olympics were in, what June or July?

BTW, in hindsight, it's hard to believe that Zach Thornton, Matt Jordan or Kevin Hartman was passed over for Chris Snitko,
No, not really. Snitko had started that year for UCLA and Hartman was his backup. The cachet of the UCLA goalkeeper position had to be a big factor in Snitko's choice (over Hartman or Jordan) and he was a very good college keeper.

that Clint Peay and Brandon Pollard made it while Greg Vanney, CJ Brown, Carey Talley and Brandon Predeaux did not, that Damian Silvera, Nelson Vargas and Imad Baba were chosen over Eddie Lewis, Steve Ralston and Chris Klein and AJ Wood and Miles Joseph were picked and Ante Razov and Clint Mathis weren't.
Frankly, having seen Eddie Lewis play at UCLA, I'm not at all surprised he wasn't chosen. He really stepped up his play in his 2nd year with the Clash. Same thing with Vanney. I didn't think he was likely to develop into a top notch American player until much later.

Razov was one of the final cuts, if I remember right. He was a very impressive collegiate player. He was known as a hothead at UCLA, so that might explain his absence (and his late selection in the initial MLS collegiate draft).

I'm not blaming Bruce, per se, though some of his choices sure seem questionable now. But it just does to show how the pro game is a much better indicator and weeding out device for top players than the college game is.
I also think that Bruce's choices then were based not on future potential, but rather on who was playing well at that time. In that context, I think there are very few you could argue with. You might look at the last Clint Peay we saw or Miles Joseph and say, "geez, that guy isn't very good, why would Bruce have wanted him." But back then, those were the best players at their level. They just never developed into players at the next level. It happens.

And, to the other point, in no way do I see a player who is still in college and not a pro by the sping of 2004 making the Olympic team. In fact, unless Doug Warren beats out Steve Cronin for the backup GK job, I don't see anyone who played 4 years of college ball and then went pro making the Athens Olympic team or the qualifying team, for that matter.
If a couple of our top talents had decided to stick it out in the colleges, I'd say there is a better chance that there would be one or two four-year guys on the team. But essentially all of the key players from the identified group of top talents in this age group are pros now.

There also has to be tremendous pressure on the remaining members of the last U-17's and U-18's to get into a pro environment since so many of their competitors for Olympic roster spots are already there and many are making a name for themselves at the pro level that will be impossible to overcome at the collegiate level.

[DigitalTron]

As for Arena's choices, there's a lot to be found from hindsight, but it doesn't always tell the full story. After college people continue to develop, and some of the guys you mentioned didn't develop much more, while some that weren't picked continued to develop past them. At the time, guys like Vanney etc. may not have been the best players.

Also, the speed of decision making is so different from US collegiate soccer to any international competition. It's always going to be an adjustment for the players that other college players cannot really simulate. So, it's more of a projection of their adjusted play that the coach is looking for, which is a very inexact science.

Regarding the defenders, that's great that so many are in good pro situations! I'm sure that the Quakes and the Galaxy are a little disappointed that Alex Yi didn't sign with MLS though.

Ricardo Clark needs to get into MLS. I think he could start right away for a team like Columbus and develop very quickly in that type of an environment.

-Tron

[M.T. Nets]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
Actually, the only player on the 1996 Olympic roster who was still in college was Billy Walsh, who was at Virginia and transferred to Rutgers after the Olympics.....................................

And, to the other point, in no way do I see a player who is still in college and not a pro by the sping of 2004 making the Olympic team. In fact, unless Doug Warren beats out Steve Cronin for the backup GK job, I don't see anyone who played 4 years of college ball and then went pro making the Athens Olympic team or the qualifying team, for that matter.


Interesting thought about the GK spot. With DJ hurt for the 2nd time, the limited playing time he has seen I wonder if Warren & Cronin may have an edge due to the fact that they have been playing 25 to 30 games per year in college and training in off season with some of the MLS teams?

[Attacking Minded]

Sandon you will find that at the pro level most of the forwards and wingers are young guns but the backs and keepers have balding heads. Positions that require more speed and natural agility but less perfection of technique or endurance are filled by younger players.

Hence young defenders and keepers are more likely to be playing at a lower level than young strikers and wingers.

[NGV]

Originally posted by Attacking Minded
Sandon you will find that at the pro level most of the forwards and wingers are young guns but the backs and keepers have balding heads. Positions that require more speed and natural agility but less perfection of technique or endurance are filled by younger players.

Hence young defenders and keepers are more likely to be playing at a lower level than young strikers and wingers.

Also, I'm don't know this for certain, but I suspect that it's generally easier for young attacking players to work their way onto the field than young defenders. It's not uncommon to throw a teenage attacker on as a late sub when you're looking for an offensive spark, but coaches are less likely to sub in an untested 17 y/o defender while trying to defend a lead (and of course, playing time is also hard to come by for rookie backup keepers). That's another reason why defenders might want to hold off entering the pro ranks a little longer than forwards and attacking midfielders.

[DigitalTron]

Defense requires near 100% perfection, as even the slightest mistake is punished by a goal. Organization, communication, technique, tactics and anticipation are all required in addition to the traditional items called "skill." Defense is about the occasional breakdown or mental lapse destroying you.

Offense is seldom successful, to making mistakes is acceptable as long as you occasionally make a brilliant play, as those are what often lead to scoring. A young player makes mistakes, it's inevitable, but if a young attacker makes a mistake he generally loses possession closer to midfield or the opponent's goal. If a defender makes a mistake, it is usually closer to his OWN goal, and generally (if it is a back line player) there isn't anyone to cover for him, and the attacker gets a clear shot at goal.

IMHO, that's why young defenders do not usually start, particularly centrally. Wing defenders start earlier because they have central defenders who can sometimes cover for them. Midfielders and forwards have a lot more free reign to make mistakes, and because of that, they see more early pitch time.

-Tron

[Aalborg]

oh oh, I think Landons starting to lose his hair....

[kyledane]

Originally posted by DigitalTron
Ricardo Clark needs to get into MLS. I think he could start right away for a team like Columbus and develop very quickly in that type of an environment.
I know this is a broken record-style comment on my part, but I think we should continue to be careful about using the term "needs to" about players going pro. A player "needs to" do what is best for them personally in their own lives, only part of which involves soccer. They certainly may have other goals and interests in life that would suggest that they should stay in college.

If their goal is to play in MLS (a likely goal for many American players), then there is no necessity to go pro early (before finishing college), they can certainly still attain their goal even after spending four years in college. Many, many players have done so right up to this year.

If, however, Clark's #1 goal is to play on the Olympic team, then it's a different story. Then you're on stronger footing saying he "needs to" go pro immediately.

[The Wanderer]

Originally posted by kyledane

I know this is a broken record-style comment on my part, but I think we should continue to be careful about using the term "needs to" about players going pro. A player "needs to" do what is best for them personally in their own lives, only part of which involves soccer. They certainly may have other goals and interests in life that would suggest that they should stay in college.

If their goal is to play in MLS (a likely goal for many American players), then there is no necessity to go pro early (before finishing college), they can certainly still attain their goal even after spending four years in college. Many, many players have done so right up to this year.

If, however, Clark's #1 goal is to play on the Olympic team, then it's a different story. Then you're on stronger footing saying he "needs to" go pro immediately.

If they want to maximize their long term earnings potential they should go pro ASAP. It's not like most of the cream of the U.S. youth players will be doing anything other than playing soccer for the next 13-15 years. I realize we live in a 'just in case' type society. If a kid has Euro offers of upwards of 100K or near that then it's foolish to stay in college. No way is a kid going to get 100K as a first year graduate in this economy. Well maybe if he's a computer programmer he will. But I doubt too many of these guys major in that.