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billyireland
08 Feb 2009, 06:40 AM
Billy - you have mentioned your dislike of the Respect campaign numerous times. You mentioned Riley's incompetence as evidence of why it is a bad campaign. You are missing the point of the campaign entirely.

The Respect campaign is designed to protect and aid the referees at grass roots level. The plan was to minimize criticism of the refs by Top flight club managers, players, media pundits who all stick the knife in whenever a ref makes a c@ck up. The purpose of this was to provide an example that Refs might get things wrong but they were not getting slaughtered for this. The top flight good behaviour would hopefully be used as a template and would trickle-down the divisions to grass-roots level. At grass-roots level there is a real problem with good refs being hard to find because they are harangued out of it whenever they make a mistake. In other words the climate of blame and recrimination is forcing many decent grass-roots level refs out of the game. It is from the grass-roots level that the next lot of Premiership refs will come from. By publicly disrespecting the Refs in the top-flight now, the chances of getting better Refs for the top-flight in the future is diminished.
I know what you are getting and and I do agree to a fair extent, but my disdain is not directed towards the campaign nor it's goals - both are very legit worries and certainly necessary trends to act upon. The campaigns aims and goals are spot on imo, and it is good to see how they are being addressed. My point though is that it is less a case of where they are going, and more to do with how they are going to get there.

Respect is a give-and-get process in any walk of life, and needs to be earned. Don't respect somebody and they won't respect you in return. This is one of those things that goes beyond the intensity of sports, professionalism, and whatnot down to a basic human instinct. I am not asking the referees to bend over backwards, but it is just ridiculous at this stage... the likes of Bennett, Riley, etc (not all, mind) seem to view themselves less as independent judges and more along the lines of a totalitarian dictator for 90 minutes. Now that is the power they should have, but it is not one that they should take for granted, which is exactly how the situation is right now.

By all means if referees want to take that approach to players who try to intimidate them and get in their faces too often (a younger Rooney being a prime example) they need to put the foot down - and I would have no problems with them being quicker to reach for cards in those situations. If Rooney tells the ref to 'F off' in a few hours and is given an immediate red... yes I will cry foul, yes I will feel hard done by, yes I will bitch & moan (as is part of fan culture) but in the scheme of things I will, once the heat has died off a bit, also admit it was a good thing to happen - so long as it is done with some consistency.

Likewise though, some players who while not captains, are seen as 'ambassador' figures of sorts, who are known for their better manner, respect, etc amongst referees (Giggs, for example) also deserve to be given a degree of respect in return, and not to be immediately fobbed off and treated in the same manner as the previously discussed group of players. Punishment rarely, rarely works as great incentive unless there is a motivational benefit on the flipside. This is a pretty poor analogy, but in my defense I am recovering from last night with a cup of coffee right now (:o)... but it's similar in a sense to what has happened in the Middle East: the War on Terror and post-911 'all Muslims are terrorists' mindset is/was the greatest thing that ever happened to al-Qaeda's recruitment ranks (just as the treatment of the British towards the Irish several decades back was the greatest things to happen to IRA recruitment). Everything begats itself amongst humans, and (dis)respect is no exception.

Today the News of the World ran an article. With it being NOTW it was done in typical scumbag fashion and I will admit that this is unfair on Bennett to some extent - it seems as if they make an agreement early in the video that this is off-the-record, and by doing what he is, the journalist is interestingly enough just strengthening the cycle of public figures being ambiguous/'economical' (e.g. lying) about the truth to the media because the trust between each has been broken down so badly over recent decades by sensationalist arseholes looking for something to fill the pages today and - just like the FA in the respect campaign, imo - failing to see the forest for the trees.

In this article though, Bennett makes comments about how players try to get themselves booked in certain games in order to get themselves a holiday via suspension, and how it is something you see especially in foreigners. Now given that fact that by the time training sessions are finished at clubs across the country tomorrow, almost every player will have heard of this story (I reckon it will be one of those 'topics of conversation' in the training grounds tomorrow at a hunch)... what extent of damage do you think this will do to what little is left of the Respect campaign? While I am fairly sure there are some players who do try these types of things, I would reckon that most got to this level by being ultra-competitive and wanting to play in every single game they can. So how do you think those players will feel about Bennett's comments? What do you think will be going through their minds when he refs a match of theirs next? Certainly nothing along the lines of respect for/towards him, anyway... he just publically disrespected them!

Here is the article, btw: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/168650/Top-ref-Steve-Bennett-reveals-Premier-League-stars-cheat-fans-by-getting-booked-deliberately-to-skive-off-games.html

I will admit though that the above story does give me a feeling of vindication, as I have stated before on numerous occasions that Bennett seemed to be the most power-mad ref, and the one who seems to genuinely enjoy winding them up and getting under their skin. IMO, he is the single most responsible person on the referee/FA side of the fence when it comes to the current standoff-ish climate between players and officials, and really just seems to hate footballers on the whole.

---

Again, just look at sports like rugby or American football. Those sports are far more intense than football for those involved and the athletes involved are far more easily able to tower over and physically intimidate the referees... but they don't. And whenever they do, they face the consequences. Similarly, we hear the occasional cry of players 'having the refs in their pocket'. Let's take Hines Ward (who plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers in the NFL for anybody left wondering): he plays very physically and does bend the rules on occasions, but he always plays with a smile on his face, never shows any disrespect (from what I have seen) towards officials, knows his boundaries, and is treated as such. There are similar examples in rugby, although that sport is a lot stricter on - only - the captains speaking to the refs, which I have no issues with, as it also works and the captains often get leeway to 'negotiate' with the ref rather than argue with him. This also forces the captain to be harsh on his own players sometimes, as if they are acting out of order, it hurts his bargaining position with the ref. It is a good system from the base up, and it works incredibly well in a sport that by it's nature is very, very combustible, so things don't need to be changed. This is not the case in football.

My point is basically that while those two sports both have the legal infrastructure (laws of the game btw, not the land obviously! :p) in which to build upon and promote/enforce a system of respectful and respected officiating, football does not. This all boils down to poor upper-level management (e.g. the FA) in setting up such infrastructures and holding individuals (be they players or referees) accountable for their actions when they step outside said set guidelines. In truth, the accountability of the referees and players towards this whole mess is secondary to FIFA/the FA (whomever should be responsible for setting up the infrastructure), and both are as much to blame as each other on this level.

To see the entire blame fall on the shoulders of the players, managers and club officials is grossly unfair and is never going to solve anything; I am certain of it.

Grinners89
08 Feb 2009, 08:07 AM
Just watching the Tottenham/Arsenal match.

I havent seen either team player recently and I forgot how bad both teams are without the ball. Defensively, they are two poor teams who make some of the most amazing decisions ever seen.

35'...0-0 is the score and Adebayor has just done his hamstring...looks like one that may take at least 4 weeks to heal.

38' Eboue just received his 2nd yellow card for kicking Modric after being accidently knocked down by Modric in a challenge.

revelationx
08 Feb 2009, 08:09 AM
I know what you are getting and and I do agree to a fair extent, but my disdain is not directed towards the campaign nor it's goals - both are very legit worries and certainly necessary trends to act upon. The campaigns aims and goals are spot on imo, and it is good to see how they are being addressed. My point though is that it is less a case of where they are going, and more to do with how they are going to get there.

Respect is a give-and-get process in any walk of life, and needs to be earned. Don't respect somebody and they won't respect you in return. This is one of those things that goes beyond the intensity of sports, professionalism, and whatnot down to a basic human instinct. I am not asking the referees to bend over backwards, but it is just ridiculous at this stage... the likes of Bennett, Riley, etc (not all, mind) seem to view themselves less as independent judges and more along the lines of a totalitarian dictator for 90 minutes. Now that is the power they should have, but it is not one that they should take for granted, which is exactly how the situation is right now.

By all means if referees want to take that approach to players who try to intimidate them and get in their faces too often (a younger Rooney being a prime example) they need to put the foot down - and I would have no problems with them being quicker to reach for cards in those situations. If Rooney tells the ref to 'F off' in a few hours and is given an immediate red... yes I will cry foul, yes I will feel hard done by, yes I will bitch & moan (as is part of fan culture) but in the scheme of things I will, once the heat has died off a bit, also admit it was a good thing to happen - so long as it is done with some consistency.

Likewise though, some players who while not captains, are seen as 'ambassador' figures of sorts, who are known for their better manner, respect, etc amongst referees (Giggs, for example) also deserve to be given a degree of respect in return, and not to be immediately fobbed off and treated in the same manner as the previously discussed group of players. Punishment rarely, rarely works as great incentive unless there is a motivational benefit on the flipside. This is a pretty poor analogy, but in my defense I am recovering from last night with a cup of coffee right now (:o)... but it's similar in a sense to what has happened in the Middle East: the War on Terror and post-911 'all Muslims are terrorists' mindset is/was the greatest thing that ever happened to al-Qaeda's recruitment ranks (just as the treatment of the British towards the Irish several decades back was the greatest things to happen to IRA recruitment). Everything begats itself amongst humans, and (dis)respect is no exception.

Today the News of the World ran an article. With it being NOTW it was done in typical scumbag fashion and I will admit that this is unfair on Bennett to some extent - it seems as if they make an agreement early in the video that this is off-the-record, and by doing what he is, the journalist is interestingly enough just strengthening the cycle of public figures being ambiguous/'economical' (e.g. lying) about the truth to the media because the trust between each has been broken down so badly over recent decades by sensationalist arseholes looking for something to fill the pages today and - just like the FA in the respect campaign, imo - failing to see the forest for the trees.

In this article though, Bennett makes comments about how players try to get themselves booked in certain games in order to get themselves a holiday via suspension, and how it is something you see especially in foreigners. Now given that fact that by the time training sessions are finished at clubs across the country tomorrow, almost every player will have heard of this story (I reckon it will be one of those 'topics of conversation' in the training grounds tomorrow at a hunch)... what extent of damage do you think this will do to what little is left of the Respect campaign? While I am fairly sure there are some players who do try these types of things, I would reckon that most got to this level by being ultra-competitive and wanting to play in every single game they can. So how do you think those players will feel about Bennett's comments? What do you think will be going through their minds when he refs a match of theirs next? Certainly nothing along the lines of respect for/towards him, anyway... he just publically disrespected them!

Here is the article, btw: http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/168650/Top-ref-Steve-Bennett-reveals-Premier-League-stars-cheat-fans-by-getting-booked-deliberately-to-skive-off-games.html

I will admit though that the above story does give me a feeling of vindication, as I have stated before on numerous occasions that Bennett seemed to be the most power-mad ref, and the one who seems to genuinely enjoy winding them up and getting under their skin. IMO, he is the single most responsible person on the referee/FA side of the fence when it comes to the current standoff-ish climate between players and officials, and really just seems to hate footballers on the whole.

---

Again, just look at sports like rugby or American football. Those sports are far more intense than football for those involved and the athletes involved are far more easily able to tower over and physically intimidate the referees... but they don't. And whenever they do, they face the consequences. Similarly, we hear the occasional cry of players 'having the refs in their pocket'. Let's take Hines Ward (who plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers in the NFL for anybody left wondering): he plays very physically and does bend the rules on occasions, but he always plays with a smile on his face, never shows any disrespect (from what I have seen) towards officials, knows his boundaries, and is treated as such. There are similar examples in rugby, although that sport is a lot stricter on - only - the captains speaking to the refs, which I have no issues with, as it also works and the captains often get leeway to 'negotiate' with the ref rather than argue with him. This also forces the captain to be harsh on his own players sometimes, as if they are acting out of order, it hurts his bargaining position with the ref. It is a good system from the base up, and it works incredibly well in a sport that by it's nature is very, very combustible, so things don't need to be changed. This is not the case in football.

My point is basically that while those two sports both have the legal infrastructure (laws of the game btw, not the land obviously! :p) in which to build upon and promote/enforce a system of respectful and respected officiating, football does not. This all boils down to poor upper-level management (e.g. the FA) in setting up such infrastructures and holding individuals (be they players or referees) accountable for their actions when they step outside said set guidelines. In truth, the accountability of the referees and players towards this whole mess is secondary to FIFA/the FA (whomever should be responsible for setting up the infrastructure), and both are as much to blame as each other on this level.

To see the entire blame fall on the shoulders of the players, managers and club officials is grossly unfair and is never going to solve anything; I am certain of it.

Thanks for the response. I disagree with your point about Bennett. It is those players who asked for deliberate suspensions who come out of that story in a bad light imo.

One of the main impediments to reducing Referee error is the players all lie and cheat and attempt to con the Ref. This may be extreme forms of diving, simulation, pretending to be injured but also includes claiming to have been onside, to have played the ball, to have won a corner. The Refs have an impossible job to get everything correct and the players do not help them.

You seem to have been misled by the title of the Campaign being labelled 'Respect'. You could call it 'back the Ref' or whatever. It should not be confused with the normal convention of reciprocal respect.

revelationx
08 Feb 2009, 08:14 AM
I was writing the above while watching the Arsenal game. I was going to write that Eboue was going to get sent off. By the time I write this - he has been sent off! 2 yellows for Eboue!

Plus Adebayor has gone off with a clear hamstring problem. :eek:

Grinners89
08 Feb 2009, 08:20 AM
I was writing the above while watching the Arsenal game. I was going to write that Eboue was going to get sent off. By the time I write this - he has been sent off! 2 yellows for Eboue!

Plus Adebayor has gone off with a clear hamstring problem. :eek:

Also an update on Keane...he has been playing well (if you count playing for free-kicks). Has barely seen the ball, sometimes being shifted to the left flank almost like a decoy to get Modric behind Pavlyuchenko (sp?).

Palacios does look good and is bossing the midfield (not very hard against lightweights like Denilson) and getting forward to good effect.

I actually wouldnt be surprised to see Arsenal win this given Tottenham's consistent defensive lapses and they might get complacent against 10 men.

HT...Clichy is also on a yellow card and I wouldnt be surprised to see him get red carded late as well.

revelationx
08 Feb 2009, 08:36 AM
Also an update on Keane...he has been playing well (if you count playing for free-kicks). Has barely seen the ball, sometimes being shifted to the left flank almost like a decoy to get Modric behind Pavlyuchenko (sp?).

Palacios does look good and is bossing the midfield (not very hard against lightweights like Denilson) and getting forward to good effect.

I actually wouldnt be surprised to see Arsenal win this given Tottenham's consistent defensive lapses and they might get complacent against 10 men.

HT...Clichy is also on a yellow card and I wouldnt be surprised to see him get red carded late as well.

I think Spurs will win this now. Arsenal look rattled and their defenders did not respond well to the Red Card. Too many times an Arsenal defender has got the ball and advanced too far with it, got robbed and were then caught out of position when Spurs counter-attacked. Also Arsenal's forwards have not dropped back to help the outnumbered midfield. One of Van Persie or Bendtner needs to drop back imo as they are just isolated currently. Arsenal do have the qualities to nick a goal and could win it but Spurs are fired up now and should keep attacking until they score.

newterp
08 Feb 2009, 08:41 AM
thought Keane looked good a couple of times down the left early in the game - skinned his defender and got some crosses in.

newterp
08 Feb 2009, 08:48 AM
Keane misses a free header off a beautiful Lennon cross.

revelationx
08 Feb 2009, 08:53 AM
Arshavin is going to get a big shock. Today's match is pretty loud with the crowd fired up. He will be unpleasantly surprised when he starts playing at Arsenal where the crowd are silent apart from when they are booing their own players or all outraged because one of their players has been sent off! ;)

Red Bird
08 Feb 2009, 08:53 AM
Palacios has been the absolute mutt's nuts! And Nasri is selling Clichy short, leaving him at the mercy of Lennon and Corluka. van Persie has had to be moved there to stop Corluka moving forward. Bendtner has be one of the worst footballers I've seen for some time. A very lazy Dirk Kuijt, if you will.

newterp
08 Feb 2009, 09:03 AM
Keane almost pulls a keane-special - a shot inches wide on the half turn

Twenty26Six
08 Feb 2009, 09:16 AM
Chris Iwelumo. End of.

YouTube - Chris Iwelumo misses open goal (HQ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqkShPKgAbw)

I remember that. :) Afterward, it looked like his heart was going to explode from the stress attack he was having. Poor guy. :o

Red Bird
08 Feb 2009, 09:27 AM
0-0 at full time at the Lane. Lack of composure in front of goal from both sides but where have I heard that one before ...

revelationx
08 Feb 2009, 09:31 AM
Arsenal hang on for a draw. They are now 10 pts behind us.

I will wait with baited breath to see if Harry gets criticised for his harsh treatment of Pavlyuchenko as he forced him to be subbed off. Will Harry get bashed for his cruel behaviour towards Bent who had to start on the bench? As for Campbell, it is clear that Harry has ostracised him as he was not even in the squad. Also poor Gomes has been cruelly replaced by Cudicini.

I doubt the Press will mention that - instead they will say look, Rafa - Harry played Keane for 90 mins! :rolleyes:

Twenty26Six
08 Feb 2009, 09:34 AM
Harry played Keane for 90 mins! :rolleyes:

...and the pouting tvat STILL didn't score. :cool:

Red Bird
08 Feb 2009, 09:45 AM
...and the pouting tvat STILL didn't score. :cool:

There was a slight dig by Clive Allen who is one of Spurs's assistant coaches/managers, relayed through his sidekick on Radio 5 Live!, about Liverpool not doing enough work in training and so Keane is short of sharpness. Will take him 2-3 more matches to achieve that :rolleyes:

No disrespect to Keane who has maintained some dignity throughout all this but the press and media cannot resist putting the boot in at each and every opportunity.

Twenty26Six
08 Feb 2009, 09:48 AM
There was a slight dig by Clive Allen, relayed through his sidekick on Radio 5 Live!, about Liverpool not doing enough work in training and so Keane is short of sharpness. Will take him 2-3 more matches to achieve that :rolleyes:

HAHA! _We_ don't do enough work in training??



No disrespect to Keane who has maintained some dignity throughout all this but the press and media cannot resist putting the boot in at each and every opportunity.

Nah. After his last few comments about being able to make it at LFC for a "different manager", he can GTH. Sure, he'd have done great under Roy Evan or Ged. But, we're not a pretender anymore.

Sorry, Bob. You're back to the small pond where you belong!

Red Bird
08 Feb 2009, 09:58 AM
Sorry, Bob. You're back to the small pond where you belong!

And the water in the pond is getting less every week. Gonna be a crowded pond that.

CCSC_STRIKER20
08 Feb 2009, 10:50 AM
Robbie Keane turned out to be a rich man's Craig Bellamy. Fact. :cool:

Suss
08 Feb 2009, 11:02 AM
Halftime, West Ham 0-0 Man United.

West Ham have done well and have created several chances.

Rio was lucky not to be sent off early on. Carlton Cole was in on goal and Rio pulled on his arm. Instead of going down, Cole continued towards goal and made a lame attempt to chip the keeper. If he had gone down the referee would have no choice but to send Rio off.