(NSR) The fingerprinting in Brazil

[MIGkiller]

Let's see how will this work out.

I know there are many american posters in this forum who are living in Brazil or come here in a regular basis, many of them just for a soccer hollyday, so I would like to know what's your opinion about the latest reciprocity policy (revenge in other words) by Brazilian authorities to fingerprint the US citizens coming to Brazil.

[Ombak]

If I may add my opinion too:

Good move by Brazil in that the US policy is not universal - doesn't apply to everyone coming in. So why not ruffle their feathers a little?

Bad move because there's no need for Brazil to do this to American tourists, could hurt tourism, and the PF is underprepared for such a job.

I am not sure how this decision was made though - I guess a lawyer went to court in Mato Grosso do Sul and the judge made a decision that extended to the whole country. That is certainly not the way to deal with such matetrs I think.

Anyways, at this point fingerprinting in Rio has stopped thanks to a court's injunction and this may extend to all of Brazil.

[mikesterw]

I actually don't mind the fact that US Citizens have to do this in Brazil. So what if it takes me longer to get through Immigration there, I personally don't care. I don't think that it will last long though. the average time for each person now entering the US is 15-30 seconds, at the most when the system goes a bit haywire 2 minutes per person. To take a full set of prints as Brazil is doing, is a bit longer. As I said though I don't mind. Whjats good for us is good for them, even if it is just to ruffle feathers.

[Ombak]

Originally posted by mikesterw
I actually don't mind the fact that US Citizens have to do this in Brazil. So what if it takes me longer to get through Immigration there,

Are you aware that it can take as long as 8 hours in Rio?

(And they're not taking a complete set of prints - ever since they realized they could save time if they just did the thumbs.)

[trmbrasil]

I'm an American living in Brazil (over one year in Salvador so far), and have my parents coming down next week to get their pictures and prints done, and have a many thoughts to share. Bear with me.

First of all I'm not a fan of Bush, 99.9% of his policies, and the ignorance that his administration projects internationally. This could be several threads alone, but I cringe every time I see his face on the news or read about him in the paper.

However, I also have an aunt that works in security for the state department and have grilled her about some of these entrance policies. If the US could prevent terrorists from entering through a more surgical (and less broad hassle for everyone) method I would be all for it. At this point, they can't and are erring on the side of safety. Yes, it creates many embarassing moments when flights are turned around, and Bahians have to go to Rio for a consulate interview. Yet, the threat is real and needs to be addressed, despite Bush leveraging it for his political gains and preying on the fear of average Americans.

Reciprocity is great to an extent. I fully respect their right to institute this, though disagree with the judge from the interior that said US security policies are the equilavalent of the worst attrocities of the Nazi's. Maybe that is a touch dramatic, but hey, so are Brazilians ;)

It is clear that Brazil's problem with not being on the list of 27 countries that don't have entry hassles is an issue of respect. It is also convenient to bundle reciprocity with arguments over the FTAA. Many politicians, Lula included, are milking this for their image. There is much mileage to be gained from this with the Brazilian public. Everyone loves a David vs. Goliath type story and always roots for David. Presenting a tough posture against the US is much easier than solving domestic social problems. It also draws attention away from his government which really hasn't done much beyond the prevedencia reform (hardly a universally popular cause here), but has alot of pressure to deliver now that they have spent a year managing the transition of more than 15,000 govt jobs (kind of paralyzing ministries from doing much) and purging their own party of radicals. I really hope for the best here, but the coming years will be challenging for the PTistas.

The problem, from my American ex-pat perspective, is that Brazil is clamoring for respect but isn't taking some of the clear steps they could to get on "the list" in the US. Brazil can talk about discrimination until the end of the earth, but the Bushies have shown their stubborness and I don't expect that to change. If protests in the US over the Iraq war didn't move them, I think any "public" outcry over the inconvenience of Brazilian reciprocity will be 10,000 times less effective.

From a practical perspective, the US does not trust the Policia Federal's ability to maintain the security of passports and travel, and they have some good reasons. At US ports of entry, passengers arriving on flights from Brazil have the second highest rate of forged documents, with Mexico leading the charge. Brazilian passports don't have scannable bar codes and are easier to falsify than those on the exemption list. This of course would be an expensive change to implement in Brazil and I don't think it should necessarily be a spending priority with everything else going on. However, I think some of these factors should be more accurately portrayed in the Brazilian media. Then again, neither the media of Brazil or the US has a great reputation for accuracy.

Will reciprocity be effective, or will it backfire? I honestly don't think many Americans will ever even know about it because they either won't be coming to Brazil anyway, and the American media won't cover it much, especially after the Summitt of the Americas ends. Sad but true. The long waits that American tourists are enduring, only reflect the painful pace and inefficiency with which many Brazilian bueracracies operate. I'm not trying to flame with that comment, but have experienced enough of the Policia Federal, DeTran (the DMV), and SET (the transit police), not to mention the average line at a bank, to know how chato, saco cheio, and inconceivably backward the experience can be. I have gotten a kick out of observing the infighting between the Rio Prefeitura and the media vs. the federal government over how embarassing the hold ups are.

If it slows the amount of American tourists at all, I think it will be the older (and richer) crowd that seeks package deals with few hassles. The backpackers and Carnaval crowd will come regardless. Brazil is such a long trip for most Americans, that a few extra hours in the airport is not such a big deal. However, if it continues for a year or so, I think tourist numbers will definitely not increase and possibly decline.

So after all that...Reciprocity is totally fair and few Americans would disagree. Good intl political points for Brazil. It helps Lula's image as the spokesman of Latin America against Bush, but doesn't fix the problems with fome zero or education quality at home. I hope that it resonates somewhere in the US Government, but am not counting on it. It also revelas some of the lame parts of Brazil to the world (slow paper-pushing bueracracy). In the end it could hurt Brazil economically more than help it.

Ultimately, my parents will still have a great time. I'm more worried about the rain we're having keeping me away from the Barraca at the beach.

[trmbrasil]

Originally posted by Ombak


I am not sure how this decision was made though - I guess a lawyer went to court in Mato Grosso do Sul and the judge made a decision that extended to the whole country. That is certainly not the way to deal with such matetrs I think.

Anyways, at this point fingerprinting in Rio has stopped thanks to a court's injunction and this may extend to all of Brazil.

It all really is in the hands of the Federal Government Ombak. The judge in Mato Grosso made the ruling and the Government supported it.

The judge in Rio overturned it, but the goverment overruled him.

If anything, the use of the judicial process is a nice layer of protection for the Feds. When it is time to make nice again with the US, they can blame any animosity on the judges. This is smart diplomacy.

[TricolorSP]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by trmbrasil
[B]

It is clear that Brazil's problem with not being on the list of 27 countries that don't have entry hassles is an issue of respect.

US ports of entry, passengers arriving on flights from Brazil have the second highest rate of forged documents, with Mexico leading the charge.

I could be wrong but I think mexico is on the list

Sorry about deleteing must of it but I needed to show my point

[trmbrasil]

I could be wrong but I think mexico is on the list



Sort of, but this is the list (Source and words from Associated Press)

"The countries are:
Andorra, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, San Marino, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Portugal and Singapore.

By October, visitors from the exempt countries must have a machine-readable passport to enter the United States. If not, they will be required to have a visa and will be subject to US-VISIT checks.

Different rules apply for Canada and Mexico. Canadians are allowed into the country simply by providing proof of citizenship. Mexicans can apply for a permit to travel in the United States for up to three days provided they stay within 25 miles of the border. If they want to stay longer or travel further, they must obtain a visa. "

I'm not saying this doesn't suck for most people wanting to enter the US, or am I wanting a police state. But hey, they gave Mohammed Atta a visa in the past. I'm okay with them getting their shite together.

[mikesterw]

Originally posted by Ombak
Are you aware that it can take as long as 8 hours in Rio?

(And they're not taking a complete set of prints - ever since they realized they could save time if they just did the thumbs.)

Actually no I didn't know that. Interesting, still don't care though. This means I can convince the wife to stay and go watch Flamengo (if they're playing). :)

[PsyKoh]

An american airlines pilot was booked for making an obscene gesture on his picture. Dumb move, if you ask me and very unprofessional too:

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/galeria/eua/fotos/8.jpg


Whole story here:

http://www.estadao.com.br/agestado/noticias/2004/jan/14/178.htm

[mikesterw]

Originally posted by TricolorSP
[QUOTE]Originally posted by trmbrasil
[B]

It is clear that Brazil's problem with not being on the list of 27 countries that don't have entry hassles is an issue of respect.

US ports of entry, passengers arriving on flights from Brazil have the second highest rate of forged documents, with Mexico leading the charge.

I could be wrong but I think mexico is on the list

Sorry about deleteing must of it but I needed to show my point

Mexico is not on the VWPP list (Visa Waiver Pilot Program) THese countries citizens get to fill out the green application and get 90 days in the country for tourism or business only. The only thing that mexico has that is somewhat similar is the BCC (Border Crossing Card). It is like a visa, but not in a passport. its weird. I know this b/c I spent 4 years with INS Inspections before I moved on. Yes Brazilian fraud is high, and so was Argentina's that is why they are no longer on the list of 27 countries. They abused it bigtime. The requirement to be on that list of 27 countries is to have less than 5% fraud with your countrymen. Now politics do also have a lot to do with it, but the main req is the fraud level.

Will I still go to Brazil yeah, 8 hours though, eh what are you gonna do. THe thing is, I don't stay in Rio or Sao Paulo, it is just a transit point. So for now, does that mean an extra night or not, don't know, don't care, I'll be on vacation, and hopefully it won't ruin my time.

[trmbrasil]

They've actually cut down the Rio wait time from 8 hours and I think GRU in Sao Paulo moves much faster.

Funny thing is I spent three days of my life with the Policia Federal getting my visto temporario straightened out (i'm not on a tourist visa), which includes photo and prints. I even have a laminated card from the govt with these on them. I'm travelling in a few months and on re-entry have to do the airport business b/c the PF isn't all that organized. Oh well...I love my life here and accept this as a tax of sorts. Sanity tax

[ThrashBoy]

My main problem with this:

Sao Paulo is nothing but a transit point for me.
I've been to Santos and will probably go there everytime I go to Brasil, but when I go I have my transportation pre-arranged for me to get from Sao Paulo to Santos.

Before I arrived in Brasil in August, my friend arranged for a driver from the Baixada Santista area to pick me up from Guarulhos. Fortunately he was not waiting long for me by the time I got through customs/baggage claim.

If the fingerprinting process took a long time, my driver would be forced to wait for me while I have this done.
These drivers have no other source of income other than taking people like me to and from the Baixada Santista.
If they are forced to wait for travelers like myself, they will be forced to lose money or find another line of work.

By doing this fingerprinting process, the Brasilian government is damaging the welfare of some of its citizens who make a living off travelers.

[trmbrasil]

Even though someone should have thought of this before January 1, Reuters and AP reported that the Policia Federal is now trying to round up some digital fingerprinting machines. This should speed the process up quite a bit. Of course, there is still the human effect to be calculated.

Regarding waits that have already happened, GRU in Sao Paulo hasn't been that bad (unless you are a foolish American Airlines Captain). Rio is where the problems have been and the 8 hour waits were only the first couple of days. I mean, they got it down to 2 hrs by the end of last week. I'm just sad that I can't arrive there to have a samba dancing girl give me a t-shirt that says "Rio loves You".

[Ronaldo+10]

Originally posted by trmbrasil
Even though someone should have thought of this before January 1, Reuters and AP reported that the Policia Federal is now trying to round up some digital fingerprinting machines. This should speed the process up quite a bit. Of course, there is still the human effect to be calculated.

Regarding waits that have already happened, GRU in Sao Paulo hasn't been that bad (unless you are a foolish American Airlines Captain). Rio is where the problems have been and the 8 hour waits were only the first couple of days. I mean, they got it down to 2 hrs by the end of last week. I'm just sad that I can't arrive there to have a samba dancing girl give me a t-shirt that says "Rio loves You".

Ya i read somewhere São paulo was down to 15 mins max and with the Digital equipment their getting it will go down to 3 mins max. Rio is always less organized in everything.

[Lono]

as an american who absolutely loves the country and in the process of making the final move to brasil, id like to add this: while i dont agree with the american policy, the american policy applies to a wide group, it does not identify ONLY brasilians for fingerprinting.. the brasilians SOLEY identified the americans for fingerprinting, which i do not agree with either.. if they were fingerprinting everyone, it might not seem so bad.. in addition, it is not too far off too suspect that muslim terrorists would use a third country, like brasil, which has a large arab population in SP, to enter the us.. as far as that jacka$$ pilot, too bad carandiru shut down, they should have let him sit there for a while,,

[Ombak]

Originally posted by Lono
as an american who absolutely loves the country and in the process of making the final move to brasil, id like to add this: while i dont agree with the american policy, the american policy applies to a wide group, it does not identify ONLY brasilians for fingerprinting..

It's still an arbitrary policy.


in addition, it is not too far off too suspect that muslim terrorists would use a third country, like brasil, which has a large arab population in SP

Mostly christian Arab in São Paulo I would imagine. Whereas the triple-border area with Paraguya and Argentina is the real concern.

But what prevents a terrorist from having a legal, first-world country passport? Not forged? If he's a resident or citizen of any Western European country the US won't bother identifying them.

[Brazil_1500]

Brazil has been harshly criticized for its decision to identify Americans arriving in its land, a process based solely upon the international principle of diplomatic reciprocity. However, nothing has been said about the grueling battery of interviews and bureaucracy that Brazilians have to go through to simply obtain an entry Visa to the United States.
This is a process done by the American Embassy and consulates in Brazil that lasts hours and sometimes even days to be completed and requires travelers to disclose their income, purpose of travel, among other things, which many people consider an invasion of privacy. Not to mention the fact that after spending all the time to obtain the Visa any Brazilian can at any time be barred from obtaining said Visa depending simply upon whether or not the immigration agent "likes" that person.
In addition, the prohibitive costs associated with obtaining the Visa act as a first deterrence by those who desire to travel to the U.S. The costs, excluding travel costs for those who live in other cities without an American consular agency, revolve around US$ 100, not much until you consider the minimum wage in Brazil is set at about US$ 140 per month.

[Brazil_1500]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040115/capt.saox10301151656.brazil_us_fingerprinting_saox103.jpg
U.S. citizen who had just arrived in a flight from Atlanta, has his picture taken by a Brazilian (news - web sites) immigration officer, at Guarulhos International Airport, in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040115/capt.saox10101151700.brazil_us_fingerprinting_saox101.jpg
American Delta Airlines pilot, Doug Snowball, left, who had just arrived from Atlanta has his picture taken by a Brazilian (news - web sites) immigration officer, at Guarulhos International Airport, in Sao Paulo, Brazil.

[Century's Best]

I am a proud Brazilian.

I HATE many of the actions that the US government has taken abroad.

That being said, I've had mixed thoughts about this entire issue. I've read news reports from both countries and read the opinions of many Brazilians, and these for the most part reflected passionate, unbridled, and often angry patriotism.

I am all for reciprocity. However, I thought it was foolish for that judge to issue that order days before New Year's Day. Brazilian Federal Police officers stated that they worried they would lack the resources to implement this measure properly. As we saw, there were hours-long delays in airports. Apparently, the procedure has been streamlined so that delays aren't nearly as long. In contrast, the US system, with its technology, was tested for one year.

While I do not fully agree with the US Patriot Act, I understand WHY the US is implementing this measure. And let's be frank, South American citizens often come to the US illegally and stay illegally. South Americans often use illegal passports.

Some complain about the many hours Brazilian citizens need to wait to get visas to come to the US. Granted. But this in itself is not a discriminatory or anti-Brazilian attitude. Brazilians need to understand that illegal immigration is a very serious problem for the US and that the US, after 9-11, woke up to this problem. The INS was refurbished and tougher laws were enacted.

Brazil is NOT being singled out. 149 other nations are also in this deal.

As for the alleged rude treatment Brazilians get in the US, I can understand that, but I must also say that American airport employees aren't paid stellar wages. They do their jobs just because they have to and it's not fun. They are not endowed with the Brazilian warmth that Brazilians are so used to (guys, when I lived in Brazil for a while after college, some people there thought I was cold. I wasn't, I just wasn't used to all that warmth at first!).

Finally, I wish the Brazilian authorities would pay more attention to the problems we face along the borders with Bolivia, Paraguay, Colombia, and even Argentina. The drugs and guns coming in illegally are a much greater threat than middle-class Americans from Iowa or Pennsylvania looking to enjoy a one-week stay in Salvador or Rio.