Chivas-USA: Bad, Bad, Bad Idea

[MiamiAce]

As an MLS fan and a Latin-American, it gives me such shame to see the MLS executives being manipulated and fooled by Jorge Vergara, owner of soccer club Chivas. It is obvious to any soccer fan in the United States that Vergara is looking out for his best interest and not the future and development of soccer in the US. Rather, he is concerned about his product, and not the product of MLS. Vergara has let it be known through the media that he will want to use Chivas-USA as a development team for Chivas-Mexico and have an all-Mexican team if it allows. But who am I to tell a multi-millionaire investor and team owner what to do with his team IF granted one, right? Well I might have no problem if he based Chivas-USA in a Mexican city, which would actually make more sense with fans from both sides of the border. But it would be absurd to put Chivas-USA in San Diego or Houston, or anywhere else in the US because that would turn away the real fans that the MLS needs to target: Americans. Has the MLS forgotten that? We need soccer to grow with AMERICANS not Mexicans. Yes, you might gain a few more fans from Mexican-Americans, but the majority of Americans will be disgusted by a Mexican-based team playing in their city, sorry but its just harsh reality! It will turn away the average American from MLS and the tough American national media will NOT give its support for such a thing. I am so disappointed in the MLS for not realizing the bad repercussions this will have.

This is my first post on bigsoccer.com and I'm happy to be here, but this issue of Chivas-USA is what brought me here to this site, I hope to give an appropriate opionion of how this MLS fan feels about this.

[MiamiAce]

... Horrible idea. Taking away soccer from Americans and giving more soccer to Mexicans.

[Lithium858]

I agree.

[SYoshonis]

So, how exactly does adding a new team in an American city constitute "taking away soccer from Americans"?

[uclacarlos]

FYI:

Not all the Chivas threads are in this forum. There are dozens and dozens of threads pre 10/28/03 in MLS forum and News and Analysis.

[United20]

The MLS has a foreign limitation which would prevent an
all-international team...I think it's 5 per team.

[efernandez9]

Originally posted by MiamiAce
he is concerned about his product, and not the product of MLS. Vergara has let it be known through the media that he will want to use Chivas-USA as a development team for Chivas-Mexico and have an all-Mexican team if it allows. But who am I to tell a multi-millionaire investor and team owner what to do with his team IF granted one, right? Well I might have no problem if he based Chivas-USA in a Mexican city, which would actually make more sense with fans from both sides of the border.

Yes, you might gain a few more fans from Mexican-Americans, but the majority of Americans will be disgusted by a Mexican-based team playing in their city, sorry but its just harsh reality! It will turn away the average American from MLS and the tough American national media will NOT give its support for such a thing. I am so disappointed in the MLS for not realizing the bad repercussions this will have.

welcome here miCE

you have alot to read, before you rethink the above statement

Like ucla carlos said, please read other threads on the bottom of the page and get informed before such of a travesity of a comment!

[Minnman]

Originally posted by United20
The MLS has a foreign limitation which would prevent an
all-international team...I think it's 5 per team.

Not exactly:

An MLS club can only field three senior international players (age 25 or older). It can also field so-called Transitional and Junior International players:

"JI = Junior International (roster protected player 22 years old or younger; DOES NOT count against [a] a team’s 18-man senior roster limit [b] or against team salary budget; COUNTS against League-wide 20-man youth international number)

TI = Transitional International (24 years of age or younger; COUNTS against [a] a team’s 18-man senior roster limit, [b] against a team’s salary budget, and [c] against League-wide 20-man youth international number)"

The TIs don't help a club field more foreign players, but the JIs do.

Furthermore, if a foreigner has permanent resident status (i.e., a Green Card) he doesn't count against the foreign player roster limit.

So, yeah, theoretically, one could field an MLS club with no Americans, if one were able to find enough green card holding (and there aren't all that many of them) and young foreigners (though note that there can only be 20 in the league), plus the three seniors international players that each club can have. I just have my doubts that such a club would be competitive.

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by efernandez9
welcome here miCE

you have alot to read, before you rethink the above statement

Like ucla carlos said, please read other threads on the bottom of the page and get informed before such of a travesity of a comment!
Look at threads beyond 100 days.

Like:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83589

or
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80859

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by MiamiAce
Vergara has let it be known through the media that he will want to use Chivas-USA as a development team for Chivas-Mexico and have an all-Mexican team if it allows.
See above cited threads for clarification on what truly has been stated by the interested parties. Given your proclivity to misunderstand advanced English, here's a synopsis: Chivas USA will abide by the league established parameters. NO EXCEPTIONS.
FYI: most of those problematic quotes can be attributed to bad translations or to hack writers.
Originally posted by MiamiAce
But it would be absurd to put Chivas-USA in San Diego or Houston, or anywhere else in the US because that would turn away the real fans that the MLS needs to target: Americans. We need soccer to grow with AMERICANS not Mexicans. Yes, you might gain a few more fans from Mexican-Americans, but the majority of Americans will be disgusted by a Mexican-based team playing in their city!
http://www.visi.com/~ajwatt/MLSMEX.html
Hate to break it to you, but the "average American" to whom you refer is a minority in many current and potential MLS cities.
More Mexicans live in Los Angeles County than in ANY Mexican metropol save Mexico City, which happens to be the 2nd largest city on the planet. The #s in the link above are for the general area of each city, but in the city center, Latinos are above 35% in Denver, LA, Houston, Dallas and San Antonio. In SJ and SD, they comprise 25% (approximately). 22 million Mexicans and Mexican Americans reside in the US. I believe that illegal immigrants are about 6 million. But it is not illegal for them to consume. This is a huge #, hardly a minority.

Capturing the Latino market is so incredibly important to the long-term stability of the league that new, wealthy, well-connected investors are willing to come in to make it happen. Will Chivas USA work? Will they be able to lure more Mexicans residing in the US into consuming MLS, either to cheer for or against? Who knows.

[79United]

So let me get this right, your saying that Mexican immigrants will support Chivas-USA but not their local team from the city in which they reside? What's the point, if they don't like the product (MLS) why would they support a "second rate Chivas farm team" from a league they don't support in the first place?
I absolutely think this is a bad idea. MLS has gone far enough to pander to specific ethnicities in MLS cities, creating a team specifically for them is absurd. I am a San Diego native and a huge MLS fan, but I will not support an MLS team in my own town (or anywhere else for that matter) that is geared for a "minority" of the local population.
You don't see any other league in the Nation promoting such absurd policies. New-comers to the US have adapted just fine to local sports markets in other domestic leagues, there is no need for MLS to deviate from the norm and pander to the smaller pie wedge.

TS.

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by 79United
So let me get this right, your saying that Mexican immigrants will support Chivas-USA but not their local team from the city in which they reside?
No. I said Will Chivas USA work? Who knows.
Originally posted by 79United
What's the point, if they don't like the product (MLS) why would they support a "second rate Chivas farm team" from a league they don't support in the first place?
Chivas USA cannot be a farm team for Chivas Guadalajara. The player exchanges are extremely limited given Guadalajara's policy of Mexican born players only.

What Chivas offers is brand name recognition. The club is huge in Mexico, the most popular in the country.

[schmuckatelli]

Y'know, I've seen this argument kicked around a lot on BS, but I confess, I don't get it. Theoretically, a team given a franchise in MLS would still have to abide by MLS rules which are pretty clear on team composition with respect to foreign/domestic roster members. Given that, you can only push the "all Mexican" or "all Latino" envelope so far. I've heard elsewhere that to gain a Chivas-USA team, MLS would compromise its rules by making an exception for Chivas, but I can't see that flying, either, because of the hellacious ruckus the other 10 teams would make.
If it means better soccer, a larger league footprint, and all that, I don't see the problem.
A lot of the other stuff, the "we don't want Chivas because they'll bring out the roudy Latino element that will scare away anglo fans" worries me, though. Not because I think it's true, but because the thinly veiled racism it represents shouldn't be tolerated in the game. In this country we have few enough soccer fans without this sort of divisive influence.

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by schmuckatelli
I've heard elsewhere that to gain a Chivas-USA team, MLS would compromise its rules by making an exception for Chivas, but I can't see that flying, either, because of the hellacious ruckus the other 10 teams would make.
It also wouldn't fly b/c all parties involved have openly stated that that will NOT be the case. See the threads that I also cited above.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/show...&threadid=83589

or
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/show...&threadid=80859

The entire "confusion" about this came about when somebody asked Vergara IN SPANISH what his ideal MLS squad would look like, ideal as in "pie-in-the-sky", as in "wouldn't it be great if", in other words, hypothetical. He laughed, and then dismissed the question.

That was then translated as the demands of a manipulative, coniving conman hell-bent on destroying the foundation of US soccer by investing millions and millions of dollars, absorbing the debt of existing MLS franchises in an evil, dastardly plan to overtake the USA, first w/ MLS but we ALL know that pretty soon all those brown ppl are gonna take over. That's just what Mexicans do. And everybody knows that.

(The above, in case you haven't figured out, is a dramatization.)

Repeatedly, the same quotes were rehashed over and over and over again by hack reporters who never challenged the original translation. Compounding this were the numerous articles from the Latino press, at times openly embracing that original hypothetical as a workable possibility. Worse still, Vergara's minions (PR ppl whose job it is to pump up interest, or Vergara ppl completely unassociated w/ Chivas Guadalajara) loved the idea. But Vergara never once stated it.

[hackattack]

It's got a lot of people talking, check out Erick Wynalda's comments in the latest issue of 90 Minutes Magazine. It doesn't sound like he thinks its a good idea.

[uclacarlos]

Originally posted by hackattack
It's got a lot of people talking, check out Erick Wynalda's comments in the latest issue of 90 Minutes Magazine. It doesn't sound like he thinks its a good idea.
Link?

I think that article was dissected at some point. It actually is that great a piece of journalism...

[hackattack]

you can get the magazine at 90soccer.com

[Pumas C/S]

In reply to MiamiAce's post:

"Yes, you might gain a few more fans from Mexican-Americans, but the majority of Americans will be disgusted by a Mexican-based team playing in their city, sorry but its just harsh reality! It will turn away the average American from MLS and the tough American national media will NOT give its support for such a thing."


Oh Yes Miami Ace, most "Americans" will not be able to sit in the stands with a bunch of Mexicans... but if they were snooty South Americans that's another thing.

I don't like the Chivas, but soon there will be a Chivas USA, the Earthquakes will become America USA, and Americans will realize that futbol is a world sport that you can't put up borders around... yes maybe even snooty Latin Americans in Miami will realize this as well!

C/S

[Goodsport]

Originally posted by Pumas C/S
the Earthquakes will become America USA

&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp&nbsp Not gonna happen. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[mellon002]

MLS can't stay a single-entity forever, so my problem is this. What's going to stop Vergara from taking a great player from MLS and sending him to play with Chivas?