Performance of Israel's military in Gaza

[spejic]

When Israel attacked Lebanon, many knowledgeable commentators noted that Israel's military performance was dismal - far worse than was commonly perceived. There was some fear before Israel's ground attack in the Gaza Strip that similar asymmetrical warfare techniques would be employed and Israel would suffer greatly, but it has not happened yet. I thought there could be a discussion on why that is the case.

Here are the prime differences I have read about:
1) Geography. For asymmetric warfare to work, you need to close the range to the enemy. That usually requires hilly ground or urban combat. The Israelis have mostly stayed away from cities so far, and Gaza is far flatter than southern Lebanon.

2) Money and equipment. Fighting with anti-tank missiles is far cheaper than fighting with tanks, but it still isn't cheap. Hamas has not gotten the kinds or quantities of weapons it need to make a dent in a modern mechanized advance.

3) Israel changed tactics. I'm not sure what this might entail, but only a dummy would get a bloody nose in one fight and enter the next fight doing the exact same thing.

[odessit19]

Very interesting topic. Sad topic, but if we are to talk tactics and strategies, then it's good as any other.

1. Hezbollah used their bunkers under villages in open territories and IDF could not hurt them in the open without going deeper into South Lebanon

In Gaza, it will be different as we already see. After heavy borbardment, under tank and artillery fire IDF ground troops have enclosed Gaza City and slowly moving into dense areas, hence the friendly fire death of 4 IDF soldiers mistaken for Hamas fighters because they hid in a building. The circle will get tighter, but it can't work as there are too many civilians and it is impossible to go after Hamas building to building when they are booby trapped and full of civilians.

2. Hamas doe snot have weapons of Hezbollah and their RPGs and other anti-tank, anti-personel weapons will not destroy Merkava III or IV. Also IDF has the full air superiority when they could not use Cobras and Apaches in Lebanon as Hezbollah had more surface-to-air missles. Hence IAF is able to do as they wish and use their tanks to protect them from below.

3. IDF has learned a valubale lesson and time will tell really tell what is it. They are definitely have better maps, intelligence and control over Gaza then Southern Lebanon. I think the biggest difference is their ability to destroy weapon smuggling tunnels, control what goes in and out of Gaza.

[Scarecrow]

To add what has already been stated, Israel is taking a wiser approach to gaza. They are moving slower and more cautiously. A mistake they made in Lebanon was rushing into the battle after over estimating the amount of damage they did with air power.

Another difference here is that hamas has nowhere to go except into the city. haezbollah was able to move about Lebanon far easier. A mistake Israel made in there war was not dropping in behind hezbollah in central Lebanon and not making an armored run down the border to cut off Syria and the supply lines into Lebanon. They could have effectively cut off hezbollah in the south from there supply lines and reinforcements from Beirut.

[yasik19]

Plus IDF had outdated maps of Lebanon landscape, which certainly didn't help the cause.

[Iranian Monitor]

The performance of the Israeli forces in Gaza has been abysmal. When its all over, and the need to spin and censor is no longer there, the facts will show what I have said to be true.

This is not a war by any means; Hamas has very little to fight with. Yet, even as the Israelis have every advantage, even as Gaza has been under a blockade, even without engaging in urban combat, the IDF has suffered serious casualties at the hands of Hamas. Serious, in comparison to what they have committed in terms of air, armor, troops, and naval forces in this battle; serious when you consider that much of the fighting has been outside of densly populated urban areas, instead in open terrain that favors the side with the better weapons; and serious when you look at the group they are fighting.

On the first couple of days of the ground offensive alone, IDF suffered perhaps as many as a 100 casualties, counting both dead and wounded. They lost a tank as well as a helicopter. Among their casualties were officers as well as soldiers from their supposed elite Golani brigade.

Thus far, because so much of this war is about Israel proclaiming itself the winner, to regain what it lost against Hezbollah, the Israelis have spinned and silenced the facts regarding their losses. And while they have the upper hand militarily, as it would be ridiculous if they didn't, as against Hezbollah in 2006, their most notable "success" to date has been killing and maiming civilians. Otherwise, this long into the conflict, Hamas' command and control is still intact; it still responds to Israeli moves in a coherent manner; can have its soldiers meet the Israelis in those areas they are trying to exploit, and can still coordinate its feeble but symbolically important rocket attacks agianst Israel.

[Scarecrow]

Well we see the agent for the ministry of propaganda is here. And he is running his mouth off without a shred of evidence to support his bullshit claims. IM take this crap back to IN, this forum is for INTELLIGENT discussion about Military equipment, service and technology. Not propaganda.

[Iranian Monitor]

Like the rest of the Iranian public, I learned about Israel's ground offensive into Gaza an hour or two before the news was reported by western sources operating under Israeli censors. And very soon thereafter, learned of the incident that had left 30 Israelis wounded according to later Israeli accounts, although Iranian television reported the incident has 5 KIA and 25 wounded. Indeed, the reporter for an Iranian television station who first broke the news on Israel's ground offensive, a resident of east Jerusalem, was arrested several days ago by the Israelis for breaking censorship rules (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052852.html).

I also learned about 2 Israelis being captured by Hamas when Israel was denying it, only to later admit the incident when the 2 had somehow escaped their captors. And there were more instances of this nature, more clear when you are in position to read the claims by both sides instead of just one of the combatants.

While in the fog of war, and in the midst of censorship and propaganda on both sides, no one can be sure what is going on, my sense is that some of the admissions regarding the extent of Israel's casualties will only emerge when the fighting stops. That was the case in 2006 and I don't see why it should be different now.

P.S.

This is a report by the Israelis on their KIA from battles that took place yesterday:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054145.html
Three soldiers killed in Gaza fighting
...
An Israel Defense Forces soldier was killed yesterday in a clash with Hamas gunmen in Gaza, the third IDF soldier to die in one day.

Capt. Omer Rabinovitch of the Golani infantry brigade was killed in the northern Gaza Strip. Another soldier was lightly wounded in the incident.

Earlier yesterday, Sgt. Amit Robinson, 20, from Kibbutz Magal, was killed by Palestinian sniper fire in the Strip. Robinson was killed while participating in a joint operation involving infantry troops, combat engineers and armored corps soldiers. Another soldier was lightly wounded in the incident.

News of Robinson's death was released after that of Maj. Roey Rosner, 27, who was also killed early yesterday. Rosner, an officer in the Kfir infantry brigade, was fatally wounded when his unit was hit by an anti-tank missile while on patrol in the former settlement of Netzarim. Another soldier was lightly wounded in the incident.
...

[Iranian Monitor]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054188.html
The reports I am posting from Israeli sources should underscore my main point about the fact that, from a military point of view, it does not appear that Israel has been able to seriously weaken Hamas' capabilities (limited as they are) nor disrupt its command and control structure. And no matter the spin, this should be rated as a failure considering the disparity between the two sides and everything else.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054188.html
30 Gaza rockets strike Negev, lightly wounding one person

Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip fired a barrage of at least 20 rockets at southern Israel on Friday, just hours after the United Nations passed a resolution calling for an immediate truce between Israel and Hamas.

At least seven rockets hit the western Negev by 8 A.M., all of them striking cities previously considered out of the range of rocket fire.

Four Grad rockets exploded in open fields near Be'er Sheva at around 7 A.M., two more rockets struck the Ashkelon area just after and minutes later, a seventh hit Ashdod. There were no casualties reported in any of those incidents.

Another two rockets exploded in fields near Ashkelon just before 8 A.M. Three more Grads struck near Be'er Sheva at around 10 A.M. and another hit the area before noon.

Two rockets exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council just before 9 A.M., lightly wounding one person. About half an hour later, three more rockets struck the Negev city of Sderot. Another two exploded in fields outside of the city at aroun 11 A.M. There were no reports of casualties in that incident.

Another barrage struck Ashdod, Ashkelon and Yavneh toward early afternoon.

At least 30 rockets struck the Negev on Thursday, leaving four people wounded and a number more suffering from shock. Two people were seriously wounded from rockets which exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council.

[odessit19]

For the past 30 months with 400 tunnels Hamas has been bringing in rockets and materials to make rockets - of course they have many weapons stored all over Gaza and it takes time to destroy them all, considering where they are stored. IDF has been doing this for about 2 weeks, but they will need more time to destroy most of these weapons, but not all of them.

[Tribune]

The performance of the Israeli forces in Gaza has been abysmal. When its all over, and the need to spin and censor is no longer there, the facts will show what I have said to be true.

This is not a war by any means; Hamas has very little to fight with. Yet, even as the Israelis have every advantage, even as Gaza has been under a blockade, even without engaging in urban combat, the IDF has suffered serious casualties at the hands of Hamas. Serious, in comparison to what they have committed in terms of air, armor, troops, and naval forces in this battle; serious when you consider that much of the fighting has been outside of densly populated urban areas, instead in open terrain that favors the side with the better weapons; and serious when you look at the group they are fighting.

On the first couple of days of the ground offensive alone, IDF suffered perhaps as many as a 100 casualties, counting both dead and wounded. They lost a tank as well as a helicopter. Among their casualties were officers as well as soldiers from their supposed elite Golani brigade.

Thus far, because so much of this war is about Israel proclaiming itself the winner, to regain what it lost against Hezbollah, the Israelis have spinned and silenced the facts regarding their losses. And while they have the upper hand militarily, as it would be ridiculous if they didn't, as against Hezbollah in 2006, their most notable "success" to date has been killing and maiming civilians. Otherwise, this long into the conflict, Hamas' command and control is still intact; it still responds to Israeli moves in a coherent manner; can have its soldiers meet the Israelis in those areas they are trying to exploit, and can still coordinate its feeble but symbolically important rocket attacks agianst Israel.

According to reliable sources, it seems that 3 iranian armored divisions intended to join the fight against Israel in support of their Hamas brothers. Immediately after crossing the border, the iranians spotted a US Army patrol, consisting of 4 soldiers in a Humvee. Faced with this extremely menacing force, they made a hasty retreat into Iran. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed "moral victory". :rolleyes:

[Flyin Ryan]

According to reliable sources, it seems that 3 iranian armored divisions intended to join the fight against Israel in support of their Hamas brothers. Immediately after crossing the border, the iranians spotted a US Army patrol, consisting of 4 soldiers in a Humvee. Faced with this extremely menacing force, they made a hasty retreat into Iran. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad claimed "moral victory".

Bullsh*t. Who's your reliable source, Alan Keyes?

"We're going to take 3 armored divisions, travel all across Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon over land to join the fight." We have the best firepower in the world, but when it comes to war, as Tribune shows, Americans are strategically f*cking idiots.

[Tribune]

Bullsh*t. Who's your reliable source, Alan Keyes?

That post is not what it seems. :rolleyes:

Thanks for missing the obvious. As I'm not american, I don't show anything, but you certainly prove that some americans are a bit slow.

[Flyin Ryan]

That post is not what it seems. :rolleyes:

Thanks for missing the obvious. As I'm not american, I don't show anything, but you certainly prove that some americans are a bit slow.

Your post is just damn stupid. It'd be like me stating Israel hopped in a powerboat and drove it to Venezuela. You're doing nothing but trolling as "ooh, look at me, I made a stupid joke, hur hur!" If you don't wish to discuss the topic, don't post. Iranian Monitor's a moron but why should wish to become double the moron he is by trolling and stating bullsh*t.

Besides, the Iranians can care less about Israel currently, they are busy currently making friendly acquaintances with Eritrea. http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/01/interesting-report-on-regional-iranian.html

[argentine soccer fan]

Your post is just damn stupid. It'd be like me stating Israel hopped in a powerboat and drove it to Venezuela. You're doing nothing but trolling as "ooh, look at me, I made a stupid joke, hur hur!" If you don't wish to discuss the topic, don't post. Iranian Monitor's a moron but why should wish to become double the moron he is by trolling and stating bullsh*t.


Parody: to imitate for purposes of ridicule or satire.

[Scarecrow]

The performance of the Israeli forces in Gaza has been abysmal. When its all over, and the need to spin and censor is no longer there, the facts will show what I have said to be true.

This is not a war by any means; Hamas has very little to fight with. Yet, even as the Israelis have every advantage, even as Gaza has been under a blockade, even without engaging in urban combat, the IDF has suffered serious casualties at the hands of Hamas. Serious, in comparison to what they have committed in terms of air, armor, troops, and naval forces in this battle; serious when you consider that much of the fighting has been outside of densly populated urban areas, instead in open terrain that favors the side with the better weapons; and serious when you look at the group they are fighting.

On the first couple of days of the ground offensive alone, IDF suffered perhaps as many as a 100 casualties, counting both dead and wounded. They lost a tank as well as a helicopter. Among their casualties were officers as well as soldiers from their supposed elite Golani brigade.

Thus far, because so much of this war is about Israel proclaiming itself the winner, to regain what it lost against Hezbollah, the Israelis have spinned and silenced the facts regarding their losses. And while they have the upper hand militarily, as it would be ridiculous if they didn't, as against Hezbollah in 2006, their most notable "success" to date has been killing and maiming civilians. Otherwise, this long into the conflict, Hamas' command and control is still intact; it still responds to Israeli moves in a coherent manner; can have its soldiers meet the Israelis in those areas they are trying to exploit, and can still coordinate its feeble but symbolically important rocket attacks agianst Israel.


I am still waiting to see some sources that back up your claims on the casualties that Israel supposedly has suffered. Close to 100? How did you come to that figure?

As for command and control, how can you or anyone say anything about hamas ability to communicate. You don't know, you aren't in with them. This post is a great example of what trolling is.

Take this shit back to IN where it belongs. In this forum we strive to discuss things in military terms and not propaganda.

And as of right now, there hasn't been squat that I would call reliable, credible updates confirming casualties.

[CeltTexan]

The IDF, at least to the footage I saw on my TV last night, was using their UAVs to spot (at night) rocket and sniper positions...and of course calling in the fire support to eliminate that specific threat.
Has any low budget fighting force in recent years ever tried to use UAVs?
I ask this cuz considering the U.S. military and IDF incorporation of them to hover and feedback the battlefield in real time, if I was a low budget fighting force as far as advanced weapon delivery systems, I would do my best to find a way to take what tech the enemy uses and mock it.

When dealing with a heavy armor or heavy mech opponent coming onto your turf, one can still use terrain, tunnels and a clever tinker to get their own little UAV.
I understand Hamas's rockets are crude and are fire and forget platforms. But to have any advantage for Hamas to likewise peek over the battlefield with a crude UAV, that would be taking what their enemy has and replicating it for better field intellegence.
Perhaps a half way decent UAV could tell Hamas where their crap rockets are landing?!?

I just recall being young and thinking that one day our military would have the capacity to fly Unmaned aircraft into battle all the while the real pilot is in a safe chair in front of what ammounts to my generation as a video game on roids.
Seeing Hamas lose men and equipment via some guy in a chair play with a joystick was symbolic. I mean the footage I saw was strikes on Hamas positions with surgical nature of the highest order.

[URwormfood]

I understand Hamas's rockets are crude and are fire and forget platforms. But to have any advantage for Hamas to likewise peek over the battlefield with a crude UAV, that would be taking what their enemy has and replicating it for better field intellegence.
Perhaps a half way decent UAV could tell Hamas where their crap rockets are landing?!?

Seeing Hamas lose men and equipment via some guy in a chair play with a joystick was symbolic. I mean the footage I saw was strikes on Hamas positions with surgical nature of the highest order.

1st. problem with Hamas trying to use UAV's would mean that their terror rockets would need to have a stable placement. Plus they would need to be able to reach and maitain a reconnaissance zone, not just a quick fly over. The Izzi radar would pick them up pretty fast as soon as they crossed the early warning zones set up out side of Gaza.

2nd. Problem is as soon as those Hamsters launch those rockets they get the hell out of that position, knowing full well Izzi will pinpoint the launch area and strike back within sec's and maintain a mark on that area for future Terror rocket attacks. (Most Hamster rocket attacks are 1, 2 or 3 at one time most likley set at variable ranges to target a medium area and hope they hit a prize target...or create more fear.)


3rd.The Israelis were the 1st to use Battlefield UAV's...:D Izzi's Armchair joystick masters since the early 80's ;)

~worm~