Offsides?

[Hellobob57]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE6RcgCjPjk

1:36

Could you potentually blow this dead for offsides because the player who was in an offsides position gained an advantage from being in that position? The defender that was with him might have gone downfield and stopped the breakaway.

[ManiacalClown]

What you're looking for here is actually "interfering with an opponent." While Angel does initially make a move to the ball, he pulls up pretty quickly and makes it clear he's taken himself out of the play. While that initial movement may have caused the defender some concern, I think at the professional level, you definitely need to let that play, in the interest of attacking soccer. So, in my opinion, good call. Not offside.

[intechpc]

An important concept that seems to still get lost by many US referees, the USSF is very VERY clear that "Gaining an Advantage" is a term that only applies to receiving the ball after it is deflected off the goal or the keeper. Liberal application of this term to other situations as a way to justify an offside call should be avoided.

As was covered, the proper term for what you've postulated here would be interfering with an opponent, but once again the USSF is clear that simply being in a particular position is not enough to argue that the player has interfered with the opponent. Stating the defender was forced to cover him because he was positioned there is not a valid argument. Besides the ball was well over his head anyway.

The attacker made no attempt to play the ball or involve hiimself in anyway in the play, he did not interfere with an opponent and certainly gained no advantage from his position. This one isn't even close for me, definitely NOT offside.

[Alberto]

Clearly Juan Pablo Angel made no attempt to play the ball. He stopped and faced towards his own goal. He did not even turn to face the Toronto goal. Smart play, and the goal stands. Angel was not actively participating in the play.

[jkc313]

It is not an offense to be in an offside position. Gaining an advantage is limited to a few specific instances defined by both FIFA and USSF, none that would apply here anyway. Had the player in offside position, in the opinion of the referee, inhibited the ability of the opponent giving chase then he would have been interferring with an opponent. It doesn't look to me that this is the case.

[boylanj64]

Players are not expected to stop play due to an opponent being in an offsides position, and referees are not permitted to believe that doing so may constitute interfering with play. The player must make an active play for the ball, and the flag should only go up when he touches it or if a collision is about to happen. Good no-call.

[Nesto]

It is not an offense to be in an offside position. Gaining an advantage is limited to a few specific instances defined by both FIFA and USSF, none that would apply here anyway. Had the player in offside position, in the opinion of the referee, inhibited the ability of the opponent giving chase then he would have been interferring with an opponent. It doesn't look to me that this is the case.

This one is a clear no offside for me too, so we naturally have to make it into a situation to argue about.

So I wonder... if you're the defender and instead of the line the defender actually took (in which the offside attacker was no where near to interfering), you chose to take a line through the offside attacker - just run right into him. You'd then have a good case that the offside attacker interfered with an opponent, wouldn't you?

[Nesto]

Another note on this game, I've always been bothered by keepers wearing baseball caps - seemed potentially dangerous, not to mention it just doesn't look proper on the pitch to me (the pointy football markings are bad enough!).

So I think to myself, "Jim Allen must have seen this question before." And here is his answer from 2004:

USSF answer (June 16, 2004):
The USSF publication “Advice to Referees on the Laws of the Game” advises referees:
QUOTE
4.4 GOALKEEPER UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT
Under Law 4, goalkeepers must wear a jersey color distinct from the players of both teams. In addition, goalkeepers traditionally wear items of clothing besides those prescribed under Law 4. These items include soft hats or caps, gloves, pants with special hip or thigh pads, jerseys with pads along the elbows and arms, and separate pads for knees or elbows. There is no problem as long as these items of clothing do not present a danger to any players, are of a color distinct from the uniforms of players of either team and are, in the opinion of the referee, clearly related to the goalkeeper’s function. The referee should prevent any player other than the goalkeeper from wearing an item of clothing or equipment that is permitted to the goalkeeper under these criteria.

If the two goalkeepers’ shirts are the same color and neither has another shirt to change into, the referee shall allow the match to proceed.
END OF QUOTE

Traditionally the goalkeeper is allowed to wear a soft-billed cap, but there are few of those around any longer and baseball caps are generally allowed. However, the referee is the sole judge of the permissibility of these items, which must meet the requirement in Law 4 that it not be dangerous to any player. For other guidance, refer to the USSF memorandum of March 7, 2003, on player equipment.

Preventing a goalkeeper from wearing a baseball cap is overworking the principle of safety. Some referees get hung up on this matter by the term “baseball cap” and they fail to recognize the difference between the “baseball cap” worn by batters, which is rigid plastic (and clearly not permissible in a soccer match), and the “baseball cap” which is cloth with a cardboard stiffened brim. Sometime somewhere they have heard from someone that “baseball caps” are not allowed and they now lump all of them together . . . instead of using their head.

[CalCard]

To the OP, I see this as a fine play and goal, and a good job of the AR's to read the play. The defenders' responsibility is to the players that are legally able to play the ball. If the defender turned and ran into the OS attacker in the course of defending the legal attacker, then offside would be a good call... ITOOTR.

As far as soft brimmed caps, I see keepers asking and wearing neoprene visors early or late in the day as the sun faces them directly. Those, to me are acceptable. Baseball caps can not be determined to be plastic or cardboard inserts for their bill shaping. To me, they are both illegal. Never had a problem when approached if they can wear a baseball cap. I point out the hard/stiff bill of the cap, and they remove it without a problem. I do suggest they consider a neporene visor. I've seen a number of keepers that have pulled one out of their bag when needed.

[Sport Billy]

Upon further reveiew, the touchdown ... er goal - stands. ;) :p

[Rufusabc]

May I ask Cal Card to comment on this from Mr. Allen:

Preventing a goalkeeper from wearing a baseball cap is overworking the principle of safety. Some referees get hung up on this matter by the term “baseball cap” and they fail to recognize the difference between the “baseball cap” worn by batters, which is rigid plastic (and clearly not permissible in a soccer match), and the “baseball cap” which is cloth with a cardboard stiffened brim. Sometime somewhere they have heard from someone that “baseball caps” are not allowed and they now lump all of them together . . . instead of using their head.

And we wonder why people don't like us?

[Sport Billy]

If you could use it in Subbuteo, it has to be allowed in the real game, right? ;)
http://www.subbuteoni.co.uk/images/P7060497.JPG

[AlsoRan]

I know the difference between a batting helmet and a baseball cap, even if Jim Allen doesn't.

AYSO, an organization that I still volunteer for, is quite explicit in their Guidance for Referees and Coaches
Goalkeepers may wear a soft brimmed hat or cap.
In addition to the above requirements the brim
must also be made of a soft material and must be
approved by the referee. Baseball-style caps with
hard brims are not acceptable even if worn
backwards.

Outside of AYSO games, I am quite conflicted about whether to allow baseball caps. I know that soft-brimmed caps are not easy to come by.

[Rufusabc]

Do you really think someone is going to get hurt running into the brim of a baseball cap being used by a keeper to block the sun?

That's what Jim Allen is saying, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. It is ANOTHER in a long list of urban myths that referees perpetuate.

[Sport Billy]

I know the difference between a batting helmet and a baseball cap, even if Jim Allen doesn't.

AYSO, an organization that I still volunteer for, is quite explicit in their Guidance for Referees and Coaches


Goalkeepers may wear a soft brimmed hat or cap.
In addition to the above requirements the brim
must also be made of a soft material and must be
approved by the referee. Baseball-style caps with
hard brims are not acceptable even if worn
backwards.

Outside of AYSO games, I am quite conflicted about whether to allow baseball caps. I know that soft-brimmed caps are not easy to come by.

Just wondering, but why would a keeper ever where his hat backwards during a game? What be be the function? Bald guy/sunny day?

Seriously, I wonder why they mentioned "backwards".

[Alberto]

May I ask Cal Card to comment on this from Mr. Allen:

Preventing a goalkeeper from wearing a baseball cap is overworking the principle of safety. Some referees get hung up on this matter by the term “baseball cap” and they fail to recognize the difference between the “baseball cap” worn by batters, which is rigid plastic (and clearly not permissible in a soccer match), and the “baseball cap” which is cloth with a cardboard stiffened brim. Sometime somewhere they have heard from someone that “baseball caps” are not allowed and they now lump all of them together . . . instead of using their head.

And we wonder why people don't like us?

For what it's worth take the brim of a baseball cap and slam it with moderate force against your forehead to approximate the speed of a player attempting to head a ball and knocking his noggin with the keeper and tell me if you couldn't hurt yourself. I think you could cause a laceration to your head because the cardboard is quite rigid and the fabric is sewed into the cardboard. Yeah, it's lightweight, but it's still not soft.

[boylanj64]

Do you really think someone is going to get hurt running into the brim of a baseball cap being used by a keeper to block the sun?

That's what Jim Allen is saying, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. It is ANOTHER in a long list of urban myths that referees perpetuate.

Imagine that brim going into your eye when you rise for a header. Sure, it wouldn't cause a concussion, but it could easily draw blood, and certainly would make seeing harder for a few minutes.

[ref2coach]

Alberto & boylanj64 have neither of you ever wore a baseball cap? If you have, have neither of you ever bumped the brim on something that caused the cap to dislodge from your head? If neither of you have experienced what I just described, I have. The same thing would happen if a keeper wearing a baseball cap contacted a player, the cap would come off of his head with such a small amount of contact pressure that there is no way it could injure an opponent.

[Alberto]

Sure I've worn and have several baseball caps. I even referee with them now when it rains since i gave up wearing contact lenses a number of years ago.

It depends how snug or loose you wear the cap. If it's loose it will come off easily. Haven't played keeper so I couldn't tell you if it would come off in a collision. That said if the force is applied in the same plane as the brim, I think it will cause some damage. Otherwise, I agree it will probably come off.

The major issue I have is the imprecise language used to define what is a soft brimmed cap. A baseball cap is not soft brimmed.

[intechpc]

I used to play catcher in little league and after a collision with an incoming runner, I can tell you exactly what damage the brim of a baseball cap (not a batting helmet) can cause. Five stitches in my forehead. Sure the had came off his head as it hit me but it still didn't prevent it from cutting a good gash in my forehead just above my eyebrow.

I'm with Alberto on this one. That cardboard can be pretty brutal and for me I'm not allowing a stiff brimmed cap to be worn in any game I center. They do make similar caps with soft brims. If you've got one of those, you're all set.