"Persistent fouling... persistent checking..."

[ThreeCards]

Sitting here watching the Arsenal/Liverpool match and wondering why is it that American football commentators seem to be very knowledgable about the rules of the game that they are paid to do play by play on, but most soccer announcers seem to be so clueless as to the LOTG. I can only imagine how lost these guys would be if soccer had as many rules as baseball or gridiron football. Are rugby announcers as bad as EPL announcers? I know it's not a British thing, because MLS and International announcers are just as bad. Soccer fans deserve to have commentators that know the LOTG.

[code1390]

At least the commentator got it half right.

As for the sent off, I agree on the second yellow. The first yellow...well. It was questionable.

[THOMA GOL]

What was the continental match that saw Webb receive "threats" because of a call? That guy is the most hated ref these days it seems.

[code1390]

What was the continental match that saw Webb receive "threats" because of a call? That guy is the most hated ref these days it seems.

Poland vs Austria in Euro 2008

[whipple]

Soccer fans deserve to have commentators that know the LOTG.

Even if the commentators were experts on the Laws, it would be unreasonable to expect them to do any better than they do now, and I suspect they would even do worse because they cannot be in the referee's mind, they cannot see what s/he sees nor make that complex but nearly instantaneous decision as to whether to restart, allow play to continue, or signal advantage.

Rather, it would be nice if they just showed a little more respect for the game aqnd the courtesy of not trying to second guess the referee.

[andymoss]

Rather, it would be nice if they just showed a little more respect for the game and the courtesy of not trying to second guess the referee.

I wonder if Santa reads this board?

Ah well, you can always dream, eh?

[Rufusabc]

That announcer was David Pleat who more than made up for it during the course of the match by constantly referring to the positioning of Mr. Webb in the later stages of that match. Persistent Infringement is NOT a term you would expect someone to have on the tip of their tongue. Pleat is a great tactician, and I thought he did a fine job in explaining to you and me exactly what was going on with Liverpool and Arsenal in that match yesterday.

Webb always gets the tough matches in England at the moment. And although he did have a rough spot or two, I thought the two yellows to Adebayor were justified and he allowed the Liverpool DMC to much leeway before issuing the yellow for PI. I think he committed 8-9 fouls before the yellow.

[boylanj64]

And although he did have a rough spot or two, I thought the two yellows to Adebayor were justified and he allowed the Liverpool DMC to much leeway before issuing the yellow for PI. I think he committed 8-9 fouls before the yellow.

Liverpool only committed 18 fouls that game. I think 8-9 seems high for one player, but I agree it seemed a lot.

[jkc313]

Even if the commentators were experts on the Laws, it would be unreasonable to expect them to do any better than they do now, and I suspect they would even do worse because they cannot be in the referee's mind, they cannot see what s/he sees nor make that complex but nearly instantaneous decision as to whether to restart, allow play to continue, or signal advantage.

Rather, it would be nice if they just showed a little more respect for the game aqnd the courtesy of not trying to second guess the referee.

Couldn't disagree more. Every time one of these idiots comments that a handball has occurred or a player merely in offside position should be flagged, it hurts the broadcast. You almost never see American football,basketball, or baseball announcers so blatantly ignorant of the rules of their respective sports. But this thread got off topic. Question was WHY American announcers are more knowledgeable? I used to assume that only in America are soccer players taught how to play but never are taught the rules beyond a rudimentary nature. But over the past 15 years or so I've come to believe that soccer is taught everywhere like this. Hence, you get players that have played for many years even at high levels that remain clueless as to the nuances of the LOTG. When I was taught how to play football, basketball and baseball, I was taught the rules as I went along. I think that's the case with most of us. We grow uo knowing the rules so the announcers, most of whom have played their sport, know the rules too.

[boylanj64]

Couldn't disagree more. Every time one of these idiots comments that a handball has occurred or a player merely in offside position should be flagged, it hurts the broadcast. You almost never see American football,basketball, or baseball announcers so blatantly ignorant of the rules of their respective sports. But this thread got off topic. Question was WHY American announcers are more knowledgeable? I used to assume that only in America are soccer players taught how to play but never are taught the rules beyond a rudimentary nature. But over the past 15 years or so I've come to believe that soccer is taught everywhere like this. Hence, you get players that have played for many years even at high levels that remain clueless as to the nuances of the LOTG. When I was taught how to play football, basketball and baseball, I was taught the rules as I went along. I think that's the case with most of us. We grow uo knowing the rules so the announcers, most of whom have played their sport, know the rules too.

I agree with this, and think that the intricacies of the rules of American sports may actually add to non-official's knowledge, if that makes sense. For instance, consider the infield fly rule: it is rarely invoked and legitimately complicated, but if a player or commentator didn't know that rule or some other basic point, he would be castigated in the press (ie, Donovan McNabb). Thus, knowing these obscure points is actually a little cool, and players and coaches are expected to know how to bend them to their advantage (ie the A-11 offense). Knowing 17 fairly basic laws; well, not as exciting to master.

[whipple]

Couldn't disagree more. Every time one of these idiots comments that a handball has occurred or a player merely in offside position should be flagged, it hurts the broadcast.

Possibly you failed to understand what I wrote. What you refer to, above, is the kind of "second guessing" I was alluding to.

You almost never see American football,basketball, or baseball announcers so blatantly ignorant of the rules of their respective sports. But this thread got off topic. Question was WHY American announcers are more knowledgeable? I used to assume that only in America are soccer players taught how to play but never are taught the rules beyond a rudimentary nature. But over the past 15 years or so I've come to believe that soccer is taught everywhere like this. Hence, you get players that have played for many years even at high levels that remain clueless as to the nuances of the LOTG. When I was taught how to play football, basketball and baseball, I was taught the rules as I went along. I think that's the case with most of us. We grow uo knowing the rules so the announcers, most of whom have played their sport, know the rules too.

When you talk about "rules" what sport are you talking about? Are you talking about high school soccer? Yes it can be confusing, but in the USSF/FIFA game it is more the case of the referee applying a structure of Laws to make very specific rulings based upon the game they are doing.

[ThreeCards]

Well said jkc. I can still see the damage that Marcello Balboa's commentating during the last WC did to the level of soccer knowledge of the casual fan in the US.

It also bothers me that many soccer announcers seem to admire some of the cheating that goes on during these matches. I can't count the number of times I've heard about how great a player is at "playing the referee".

I've noticed that over the past few years, basketball players have taken a page out of the soccer players manual. Everytime the ball goes out of play, half the players immediately point in the wrong direction, even when it's obvious who should have possession. Now where have I seen that before...:rolleyes:

And please don't tell me that bb players have always done that, because I've been watching games for nearly forty years and have definitely seen a change.

[whipple]

It also bothers me that many soccer announcers seem to admire some of the cheating that goes on during these matches. I can't count the number of times I've heard about how great a player is at "playing the referee".

I've noticed that over the past few years, basketball players...

Were it not for those little things done by player's which you call "cheating", as a referee, I would be out of a job. It is their game and they wouldn't need me.

Personally, I admire the player who can pull off the outside handling, the surriptitous shirt tug, sell a convincing dive. It keeps me on my toes. Yes, some can be silly or go too far, but then we have the power to deal with that as well.

What does basketball have to do with this?

[ThreeCards]

Unfortunately whipple's attitude is a large part of what is wrong with today's game, but he'll never understand why. How are you going to get any consistency, when you have referees that admire players that can sell a dive or tug on a jersey. This is cheating, whether you put the word in quotes or not, and should not be encouraged, especially by a referee. I'm a big proponent of fines and suspensions being doled out to professional players that manage to deceive the referee, but are caught on instant replay; the same way players are fined and suspended for violent conduct that is not seen by the referee during the match.

Sorry about the basketball reference. I was just remarking on something I'd noticed.

[Alberto]

Were it not for those little things done by player's which you call "cheating", as a referee, I would be out of a job. It is their game and they wouldn't need me.

Personally, I admire the player who can pull off the outside handling, the surriptitous shirt tug, sell a convincing dive. It keeps me on my toes. Yes, some can be silly or go too far, but then we have the power to deal with that as well.

What does basketball have to do with this?

Sherman I'm also surprised by your post. I think players are so adept at cheating that it passes beyond keeping us on our toes. Simulation is pandemic in the pro game. Players routinely get other players cautioned, whistled for fouls and sent off all to get an edge. Pro and top amateur soccer is difficult enough given how fast the game is. Add simulation and it becomes damn near impossible to keep the match fair.

I also disagree that we would be out of a job, but I hope it was hyperbole on your part looking for a reaction.

[boylanj64]

Were it not for those little things done by player's which you call "cheating", as a referee, I would be out of a job. It is their game and they wouldn't need me.

Personally, I admire the player who can pull off the outside handling, the surriptitous shirt tug, sell a convincing dive. It keeps me on my toes. Yes, some can be silly or go too far, but then we have the power to deal with that as well.

What does basketball have to do with this?

I disagree that this isn't "cheating." I see where you are coming from; it is within the confines of the laws to dive, and is addressed with a YC. If physical tackles that also merit a YC are not cheating, then how is diving, you ask? The difference is no one is "reckless" in their dive - it is entirely premeditated. Entertain this hypothetical for me - a player blatantly dives in the box in the WC final and the ref buys it, the match ending 1-0. Would you seriously contend this is an authentic display of skill, with the best team winning?

[whipple]

Alberto, et al....

It is not that I want players to cheat, but rather, in a competitive match, I expect players to test the limits right up to the point that it becomes unfair, at which time, I will then interfere in the match to show them where we draw the line and award a restart to restore fairness and, if necessary, deal with misconduct.

Not only do players test their opponents, but they test the referee as well. Is this cheating? Maybe, but imagine how boring it would be if no-one did anything bad. Then, we might start making up fake offenses like the ball hitting the hand in an unnatural positon, or playing the ball on the ground, high kicking or flying elbows or other such nonsense. oh... wait... That is exactly what many of us do... we create fouls when nothing really happened.

Ever since I dropped my Balilla A-!, accidently, in a porta potty at MTOC in 1993, and then fished it out, since it was during halftime and I was in a rush to get back and finish the second half of my center, every time I bring a whistle to my lips this vision comes to mind.... it had better be pretty compelling and beyond a doubt before I touch my lips to that very same whistle (even after boiling and a pea replacement).

As for diving, a player going down is not a reason why I would blow my whistle. Rather I have to see the foul committed that caused the player to fall. Yes, players exaggerate or sell fouls sometimes. My sense is that if a player is actually fouled, s/he is not required to perservere, but have every right to succumb and go down, as long as they don't make a mockery of it, but still may not get a call if there was no unfairness as it would be trifling.

And, yes TC, I have certainly messed with the game in my little area. A few years ago an individual complained to an ARA that I was corrupting every referee in Southeastern Mass and no-one was calling handballs right anymore, to which the ARA respondend: "Don't talk to me, he corrupted me years ago."