VfB Stuttgart Thread- Winter Pause und Ruckrunde 08-09[R]

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

We were also supposed to have a friendly against 1860, but we had to call it off due to the number of injuries :(

[Rainer24]

My reasons were:

1. Top scorer for Milan, one of the best clubs in the world, since he arrived.
2. Significantly younger than Mario. Gomez was playing 3rd league at Pato's age.
3. Technically more gifted than Gomez, and faster.
4. Milan play with one striker, and Pato has forced Inzaghi, Shevchenko and Borriello, all good strikers (I know Inzaghi and Sheva are getting older, but they're still good. Both would probably score 15 plus goals in Germany.)
5. Pato has arguably been Milan's best player this season. That's right, I honestly think so. And many Milan fans would agree. Kaka and Ronaldinho have been good, but neither have been at their top form.


Pato is clearly a very good player already and projects as one of the elite strikers in the world, but I do not think he is currently better than Gomez. Pato is Milan's leading scorer this season, but half of those goals have come in the past couple of game. If he weren't in such hot form recently, his scoring record could look far less impressive.

Also, Pato has the benefit of playing with creative guys like Kaka, Ronaldinho and Seedorf. I love VfB, but we don't have a single creative guy on the level of any of them, let alone three, so I think that also benefits young Pato. Frankly, I think Gomez would have scored more goals up to this point than Pato with those sorts of players feeding him the ball in scoring positions. It's all just my opinion and I'm sure Pato is going to emerge as one of the best forwards in the world in the next couple of years, but I don't think he is there yet. He is good, not amazing.

Also, Shevchenko and Inzaghi are either done or are nearly there. They could play for most teams in the Bundesliga, but I don't think they'd light it up any more than they would Serie A at this point.

Yes, Mario was still playing for Vfb II at 19, but I don't think you can break down a player's career as easily as that. Different players have different developmental curves. Luca Toni was still toiling away in the relative obscurity of Serie C and B teams well into his 20s, but hasn't shown any signs of slowing at nearly 32. On the other end of the spectrum you have a guy like Robbie Fowler, who was already scoring thirty goals a year by age 19, but was more or less done as a top level player at 26 or 27. Time will tell what kind of career arc Gomez, Pato, and all these other good young forwards will have when we look back on their sum achievements years down the line.

[footyfan1]

My reasons were:

1. Top scorer for Milan, one of the best clubs in the world, since he arrived.
2. Significantly younger than Mario. Gomez was playing 3rd league at Pato's age.
3. Technically more gifted than Gomez, and faster.
4. Milan play with one striker, and Pato has forced Inzaghi, Shevchenko and Borriello, all good strikers (I know Inzaghi and Sheva are getting older, but they're still good. Both would probably score 15 plus goals in Germany.)
5. Pato has arguably been Milan's best player this season. That's right, I honestly think so. And many Milan fans would agree. Kaka and Ronaldinho have been good, but neither have been at their top form.


Pato is clearly a very good player already and projects as one of the elite strikers in the world, but I do not think he is currently better than Gomez. Pato is Milan's leading scorer this season, but half of those goals have come in the past couple of game. If he weren't in such hot form recently, his scoring record could look far less impressive.

Also, Pato has the benefit of playing with creative guys like Kaka, Ronaldinho and Seedorf. I love VfB, but we don't have a single creative guy on the level of any of them, let alone three, so I think that also benefits young Pato. Frankly, I think Gomez would have scored more goals up to this point than Pato with those sorts of players feeding him the ball in scoring positions. It's all just my opinion and I'm sure Pato is going to emerge as one of the best forwards in the world in the next couple of years, but I don't think he is there yet. He is good, not amazing.

Also, Shevchenko and Inzaghi are either done or are nearly there. They could play for most teams in the Bundesliga, but I don't think they'd light it up any more than they would Serie A at this point.

Yes, Mario was still playing for Vfb II at 19, but I don't think you can break down a player's career as easily as that. Different players have different developmental curves. Luca Toni was still toiling away in the relative obscurity of Serie C and B teams well into his 20s, but hasn't shown any signs of slowing at nearly 32. On the other end of the spectrum you have a guy like Robbie Fowler, who was already scoring thirty goals a year by age 19, but was more or less done as a top level player at 26 or 27. Time will tell what kind of career arc Gomez, Pato, and all these other good young forwards will have when we look back on their sum achievements years down the line.


I agree with VfBstuttgartfan on this one. If someone told me I could pick between Mario Gomez and Alexandre Pato as I was starting a team, I'd pick Pato every time.

Wouldn't need a second to think about it.

[Rainer24]

I agree with VfBstuttgartfan on this one. If someone told me I could pick between Mario Gomez and Alexandre Pato as I was starting a team, I'd pick Pato every time.

Wouldn't need a second to think about it.


If I am building for the future, I would also take Pato, but if I am building a team for today, I would still take Gomez. Just a matter of opinion and right now most people would probably be of the same opinion as you guys. Maybe I am just too biased. Very possible.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Also, Shevchenko and Inzaghi are either done or are nearly there. They could play for most teams in the Bundesliga, but I don't think they'd light it up any more than they would Serie A at this point.

I see your points and you make some good ones. I still believe Pato is the better of the two, but I guess at the end of the day its all subjective.

I'm gonna be picky and respond to this one section though: neither of them are starters for Milan in most competitive matches, but both were given a chance yesterday in the friendly against Hannover. Milan won 3-2 - two Inzaghi goals and one by Sheva :p

[Rainer24]

I see your points and you make some good ones. I still believe Pato is the better of the two, but I guess at the end of the day its all subjective.

I'm gonna be picky and respond to this one section though: neither of them are starters for Milan in most competitive matches, but both were given a chance yesterday in the friendly against Hannover. Milan won 3-2 - two Inzaghi goals and one by Sheva :p


Yeah, but Hannover is tied for the 2nd worst defense in the league! Everybody and his grandma can put at least one past them at the moment. I definitely understand your point, but I don't think Pato is as close to being a finished product. The finished product will be amazing, but he isn't there yet if you asked me. As to which I would want on my team, that would also depend on the supporting cast and what system you want to play. I am definitely partial to Gomez, but it's not as if I would roll over crying if we were to somehow trade ours for theirs.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

VfB II beat CSKA Moscow 1-0 :)

Hopefully a sign of things to come the next time we meet a Russian side :)

[Rainer24]

VfB II beat CSKA Moscow 1-0 :)

Hopefully a sign of things to come the next time we meet a Russian side :)


Will we get to play against their reserve team as well? If only!

[Equilibrium]

My reasons were:

1. Top scorer for Milan, one of the best clubs in the world, since he arrived.
2. Significantly younger than Mario. Gomez was playing 3rd league at Pato's age.
3. Technically more gifted than Gomez, and faster.
4. Milan play with one striker, and Pato has forced Inzaghi, Shevchenko and Borriello, all good strikers (I know Inzaghi and Sheva are getting older, but they're still good. Both would probably score 15 plus goals in Germany.)
5. Pato has arguably been Milan's best player this season. That's right, I honestly think so. And many Milan fans would agree. Kaka and Ronaldinho have been good, but neither have been at their top form.
Some of your reasons are very silly man.

1. Top scorer last season? He had 7 in 14 last season right, which is decent /good for a decent striker and amazing for a very young, inexperienced striker adjusting to a new league. As for this season he's done very good so far, but Gomez still has a higher goal scoring figures. He also plays in a tree formation 4-3-2-1 where everyone supports him to get the goals. The same happened with Torres last season in a 4-5-1 when the whole team played for him and everyone kissed his ass. He's hardly as effective in a 4-4-2 unsurprisingly when the whole team is no longer playing for him. Dinho whose already past his prime, or the other 30+ players bar Kaka going to score more than him? Who bar Kaka has a realistic chance to score more goals than him?

2. Yes we are talking about now, not what will happen in 4-5 years. If I was a professional psychic, I probably could tell if your future prediction will come true or not. I'm not one though..

3. So? :D This is such a silly reason it makes me laugh. They are completely different strikers, each one will beat another in some attributes. It really means sh1t, nothing. Gomez is still better finisher, has a much better technical awareness and can shoot harder and use his head better. Another will beat Gomez in 3-4 different attributes because they are different type of striker.

4. See here is where you make me wonder if you watch them regularly. Sheva since he's went to Chelski, has been average to decent at best. He's never been good enough to start for a while. Boriello is simply Gilardino the 2nd, a player with talent but simply not made for Milan, exactly like Gilardino. He will probably move to a smaller club again and shine like he did before, just like Gilardino. He's been another average player for Milan. The way Shevchenko and Boriello has been playing for Milan this season, I'd take the useless focking Borowski and play him as striker over them. That's how much I value how well they have played for Milan this season. Inzaghi is the only player who an average striker would have to fight off. He is too hot and cold due to his age. Useless for 89 minutes, offsides 20 times, and scores one somehow. His style has always been that way, but his consistency has lowered with age. What big club would he start at nowadays? :rolleyes:

5. He's been good for a month and a half, the other time he was being piss poor or average at best. Having 5 midfielders/wingers, including Ronnie/Kaka/Pirlo/Seedorf who are some of the best at passing and vision, I don't see a big focking surprise in him being able to score from. Look who Gomez has to get service from on Stuttgart, the difference is ridiculous.

Pato could very well be better than Gomez in a few years. Right now, he's not even in the same league as him.

[footyfan1]

Some of your reasons are very silly man.

1. Top scorer last season? He had 7 in 14 last season right, which is decent /good for a decent striker and amazing for a very young, inexperienced striker adjusting to a new league. As for this season he's done very good so far, but Gomez still has a higher goal scoring figures. He also plays in a tree formation 4-3-2-1 where everyone supports him to get the goals. The same happened with Torres last season in a 4-5-1 when the whole team played for him and everyone kissed his ass. He's hardly as effective in a 4-4-2 unsurprisingly when the whole team is no longer playing for him. Dinho whose already past his prime, or the other 30+ players bar Kaka going to score more than him? Who bar Kaka has a realistic chance to score more goals than him?

2. Yes we are talking about now, not what will happen in 4-5 years. If I was a professional psychic, I probably could tell if your future prediction will come true or not. I'm not one though..

3. So? :D This is such a silly reason it makes me laugh. They are completely different strikers, each one will beat another in some attributes. It really means sh1t, nothing. Gomez is still better finisher, has a much better technical awareness and can shoot harder and use his head better. Another will beat Gomez in 3-4 different attributes because they are different type of striker.

4. See here is where you make me wonder if you watch them regularly. Sheva since he's went to Chelski, has been average to decent at best. He's never been good enough to start for a while. Boriello is simply Gilardino the 2nd, a player with talent but simply not made for Milan, exactly like Gilardino. He will probably move to a smaller club again and shine like he did before, just like Gilardino. He's been another average player for Milan. The way Shevchenko and Boriello has been playing for Milan this season, I'd take the useless focking Borowski and play him as striker over them. That's how much I value how well they have played for Milan this season. Inzaghi is the only player who an average striker would have to fight off. He is too hot and cold due to his age. Useless for 89 minutes, offsides 20 times, and scores one somehow. His style has always been that way, but his consistency has lowered with age. What big club would he start at nowadays? :rolleyes:

5. He's been good for a month and a half, the other time he was being piss poor or average at best. Having 5 midfielders/wingers, including Ronnie/Kaka/Pirlo/Seedorf who are some of the best at passing and vision, I don't see a big focking surprise in him being able to score from. Look who Gomez has to get service from on Stuttgart, the difference is ridiculous.

Pato could very well be better than Gomez in a few years. Right now, he's not even in the same league as him.


This entire message is exactly the bullshit I was hoping to avoid. :rolleyes:

[Equilibrium]

Considering you would rather have Pato over Gomez atm shows that I could care less if you think it's bullsh1t or not.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Some of your reasons are very silly man.

Ok, minus the petty insults, I will answer this post.


1. Top scorer last season? He had 7 in 14 last season right, which is decent /good for a decent striker and amazing for a very young, inexperienced striker adjusting to a new league. As for this season he's done very good so far, but Gomez still has a higher goal scoring figures.

Gomez has higher goalscoring figures? Depends how you look at it.

Overall in all competitions he has scored more. BUT you need to look where: he has hit 5 goals in 6 games in the UEFA Cup. You cannot compare that to Pato, since Pato never plays in the UEFA Cup - he's been deemed to good to play in that competition so far this season, he's always been rested on UEFA Cup day.

Then Gomez has hit 2 goals in the DFB Pokal. To be precise, 2 goals against Hansa Lueneberg. So let's count those out.

Now, to the leagues. Gomez has hit 7 goals in 16 league games, 15 of which were as a starter. Pato has hit 9 goals in 19 league games, of which only 13 were as a starter. So looking at this way Pato has the better statistics. Even though he plays in what most would agree is a better division.


He also plays in a tree formation 4-3-2-1 where everyone supports him to get the goals. The same happened with Torres last season in a 4-5-1 when the whole team played for him and everyone kissed his ass. He's hardly as effective in a 4-4-2 unsurprisingly when the whole team is no longer playing for him.

Milan have played with two strikers quite a few times this season. But Ancelotti decided that the side played better with one striker, namely Pato, than with two. That's not Pato being lucky to have a system that works for him, as you seem to try and portray it, it is Pato having proven himself to help the team the most in this position, more than anyone else could help it in that position, and thus the team building a formation around him since that is where they have gotten the best results.

That should be an argument for Pato, not against him.

Dinho whose already past his prime, or the other 30+ players bar Kaka going to score more than him? Who bar Kaka has a realistic chance to score more goals than him?

Dinho may not be the best player in the world anymore, but he's still damn good. And we know he can score tons of goals.
Kaka is still one of the best players in the world and has been Milan's top scorer in past seasons.
Then there's the strikers who have been confined to the bench by Pato: Sheva or Inzaghi - both would stand a good chance of being Milan's top scorer (indeed both have been in the past) if they were regular starters - but they are not. Why? Because Pato has been better.

And then there's another one no one has mentioned - Marco Borriello. Who is he? Oh, he just happens to be LAST SEASON'S SERIE A TOPSCORER!

The poor guy has been injured for most of the season, but even when he was fit Pato was playing better out of the two. And Borriello - who also got to play as lone striker a few times, managed only 1 goal in this 'ass-kissing system' in like 5 or 6 games he started.

2. Yes we are talking about now, not what will happen in 4-5 years. If I was a professional psychic, I probably could tell if your future prediction will come true or not. I'm not one though..

I know ' we are talking about now' - and I believe Pato is currently better than Gomez. And younger. My point was in the future he will most likely be EVEN better. But since you think that football fans aren't supposed to talk about the future unless they are professional psychics, I will reiterate that I CURRENTLY consider him the better player.

3. So? This is such a silly reason it makes me laugh. They are completely different strikers, each one will beat another in some attributes. It really means sh1t, nothing. Gomez is still better finisher, has a much better technical awareness and can shoot harder and use his head better. Another will beat Gomez in 3-4 different attributes because they are different type of striker.

I don't really think so - heading is the only attribute in which I consider Gomez better than Pato. Finishing? How many VfB games have you watched this season? Gomez's 100% chance conversion rate is about 1 in 4. He's excellent at getting himself into brilliant chances, this season however he has suffered in his finishing - any VfB fans here could back me up on this. Pato has had much better finishing.

I don't get how highlighting a player's technical superiorities is not valid WHEN YOU ARE MAKING A DIRECT COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO. It's a natural thing to do.

'Technical awareness'? I'm not sure what you mean about that, but noting quick technical aspects, I will say: 1. Pato dribbles better. 2. Pato passes better. 3. Pato creates chances for other players better. 4. Pato has less situations where he misscontrols the ball leading to a ball loss, throw ins, etc.

Gomez is better in some aspects: I think he's got better off the ball movement. And he's better in the air. But that's about it.



4. See here is where you make me wonder if you watch them regularly.

I hate it when fans make this point, it always seems to be a lame cheap shot that some people pepperspray into the middle of their argument.

And with me you have unfortunately picked perhaps the worst person to say this to.

Here's a bit of personal history about me:
My dad has been a lifelong Milan fan, and he has been living in Switzerland for 15 years now. 15 years ago he got his first Milan season ticket and has had one ever since - driving down 3 hours every second weekend to watch them.

Growing up in Stuttgart, this never rubbed off on me and there was only ever one side for me: VfB. and that is how it will always remain.

But through family connections I have always kept a soft spot for Milan. And everytime they play, they are on the home TV.

Conclusion?
- VfB is a given - I watch ALL of their games. 100%. Besides cup matches, and the occasional not broadcast UEFA Cup matches, I cannot remember the last time I have not watched them play.
- And Milan - I have ended up watching practically all of their matches. This season in their 19 league games i'm guessing i've seen about 17.

In fact it's interesting, i'm going to visit my Dad for the first time in months - what's the program? Well, we're going down to Milan-Genoa on Wednesday. Again, Milan is not my club - had it not been planned i'd rather been in the Neckarstadion 1 day earlier for the Bayern game. But what can I do?

so yeah, I watch A LOT of Milan games.

I wasn't gonna use this background as a way of making myself look better informed. But then you just had to go and bring it up. And so i've answered.


Sheva since he's went to Chelski, has been average to decent at best.

I agree he is not a world-beater anymore. But if he played for VfB, he'd still be the club's top scorer. I'm practically certain. More goals than Gomez. But here i'm admittedly jsut being subjective.

He's never been good enough to start for a while. Boriello is simply Gilardino the 2nd, a player with talent but simply not made for Milan, exactly like Gilardino. He will probably move to a smaller club again and shine like he did before, just like Gilardino. He's been another average player for Milan.

Well, Gilardino hit 15 goals his first season at Milan, pretty impressive. His last season was bad, true, i'd argue to a large extent because Pato started playing after winter and thus relegated Gilardino permanently to the bench. Gila now plays for Fiorentina - a side who'd be amongst the best if they were in Germany. And he's playing very well for them. I rate Gomez currently as being slightly better than Gilardino. Pato was significantly better.

But again I apologize as this too is subjective.

The way Shevchenko and Boriello has been playing for Milan this season, I'd take the useless focking Borowski and play him as striker over them

Well, yeah Borriello has been injured for 80% of this season. And he was good whenever I saw him. Just not nearly as good as Pato.

As for Borowski - since he's so useless can you please offload him to us? :D


That's how much I value how well they have played for Milan this season. Inzaghi is the only player who an average striker would have to fight off. He is too hot and cold due to his age. Useless for 89 minutes, offsides 20 times, and scores one somehow. His style has always been that way, but his consistency has lowered with age. What big club would he start at nowadays? :rolleyes:

Probably zero 'big clubs'. But we're comparing with Gomez, thus inevitably comparing with VfB. He would definitely start for VfB. And he'd probably have more goals in the league than Gomez has - i'm saying this hypothetically obviously.

On a sidenote i'll note fairly that Gomez's biggest impact has been in the UEFA Cup, not the league. He has practically carried us kicking and screaming through the competition so far. So I don't forget that.


5. He's been good for a month and a half, the other time he was being piss poor or average at best.

Way I see it is he's been scoring tons for a month and a half. He's always been playing well in my opinion.

Having 5 midfielders/wingers, including Ronnie/Kaka/Pirlo/Seedorf who are some of the best at passing and vision, I don't see a big focking surprise in him being able to score from. Look who Gomez has to get service from on Stuttgart, the difference is ridiculous.

Are you saying Simak, Basturk and Elson aren't as good as Kaka and Dinho? :p

Yes, Gomez is excellent at getting himself into big chances regardless of the midfield's performance. That's one factor i've been crediting him with over Pato all along.

Although average Serie A defenders are also generally better than the average Bundesliga defenders. We must also keep that in mind.

Pato could very well be better than Gomez in a few years. Right now, he's not even in the same league as him.

For all the reasons I listed above I personally disagree.

This argument is closed for me now, I have made all the points behind which I formed my opinion and have answered to all of yours. There is nothing else I can say on this now, and I think this post highlights well enough why I believe Pato is the better of the two.

[footyfan1]

Considering you would rather have Pato over Gomez atm shows that I could care less if you think it's bullsh1t or not.

You know EQ, what I meant was that is why I considered not even replying to your first message to begin with.

I knew it would turn into a f#cking childish "My opinion is better than yours" contest and you would be the damned catalyst of it.

This shit is all SUBJECTIVE! But of course, not when it comes to you. You know better than us all.

Just f#ck off with that shit man.

[+Gooner+]

I come here to read an interesting discussion of the upcoming DFB-Pokal game only to learn that the Pato vs. Gomez war has broken out. :rolleyes:

[Rainer24]

Stuttgartfan, are you serious?


Shevchenko has had a great career, but he can't even carry Mario's jock at this point. Sheva at his peak was significantly better than the Gomez we have now, but to say that Shevchenko would be VfB's leading scorer if he were playing for them right now is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.


Anyway, as I have stated before, I admire Pato's talent, and I will not at all be surprised if he is ultimately remembered as a far better player than Gomez, but he is not better right now. Give Gomez Pato's midfield to work with, and he has significantly more goals than Pato has scored so far. That is no insult to Pato. Gomez is just older, stronger, etc. right now. Pato is still on the way up.

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

Stuttgartfan, are you serious?


Shevchenko has had a great career, but he can't even carry Mario's jock at this point. Sheva at his peak was significantly better than the Gomez we have now, but to say that Shevchenko would be VfB's leading scorer if he were playing for them right now is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

Not if you ask me - I see him as someone who didn't star in Chelsea because he was benched due to world class strikers, I see him as someone who is now benched at Milan due to world class strikers.

VfB however has no world class strikers, well Gomez maybe, but either way we play with two strikers so Sheva would start here. And in my opinion, yes, he may well have hit over 7 goals in 16 league games.

To beat Gomez's overall record which is what, 16 in 23 or something, yeah that would definitely be very hard. But I was talking about the league.

Anyway, as I have stated before, I admire Pato's talent, and I will not at all be surprised if he is ultimately remembered as a far better player than Gomez, but he is not better right now. Give Gomez Pato's midfield to work with, and he has significantly more goals than Pato has scored so far. That is no insult to Pato. Gomez is just older, stronger, etc. right now. Pato is still on the way up.

Again I disagree for the reasons I listed above. And Gomez isn't stronger than Pato - Pato has shrugged off so many defenders, do you remember the last time Gomez took an a defender and beat his man? I certainly don't.

And I know you aren't insulting Pato.
Just like i'm not insulting Gomez ;) - Super Mario is one of my heroes(while Pato is not), just happens to be a hero who I do see certain limits with. He's one of Germany's best, I currently see him and Helmes as the two best performing German strikers(not counting the NT, only club level...), and he's certainly the best striker i've seen at VfB, miles ahead of Kuranyi, better than Bobic, probably even better than Elber.

So don't get me wrong

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I come here to read an interesting discussion of the upcoming DFB-Pokal game only to learn that the Pato vs. Gomez war has broken out. :rolleyes:

Yup well what you gonna do - I was told by Equilibrium that my reasons were silly so I backed them up. In detail.

Sorry to posters who have been irritated.

[benztown]

Guys, seriously, let's move on...Bayern is waiting and this time, we won't let them off with a draw (well, it would be impossible anyway) :p

[Rainer24]

Guys, seriously, let's move on...Bayern is waiting and this time, we won't let them off with a draw (well, it would be impossible anyway) :p



I can't wait, even if we don have to settle for Mario instead of the immortal Pato! :D

[Vfbstuttgartfan]

I can't wait, even if we don have to settle for Mario instead of the immortal Pato! :D

Ok, is this the part where I turn the joke around and say 'Luckily we have the immortal Mario instead of Pato'? :D