0 for 2 Mr. Allen

[refmedic]

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/fussball/Darf-man-so-einen-Penalty-schiessen/story/14850459

2 calendar days, and 2 answers from Mr. Allen that I have issue with. I think this is UNBELIEVABLE. There is a 0% chance that this will be allowed on my field. I'm interested in everyone else's opinion on this as well. I don't even like the idea that a player who stops once he reaches the ball is not considered feinting, but this player actually makes a kicking motion. I think it begs the question: If this isn't feinting, then what is?

[DWickham]

FIFA long has been clear that feigning IS permitted at a penalty kick. The last (2006) version of the Q&A included:

"Q:A player taking a penalty kick feints before kicking the ball. Is this
permitted?
A: Yes."

The 2008 FIFA Interpretations and Guidelines is entirely consistent with the USSF Position Paper:

"Feinting to take a penalty kick to confuse opponents is permitted as
part of football. However, if, in the opinion of the referee, the feinting
is considered an act of unsporting behaviour, the player must be
cautioned."

The USSF position paper identifies actions which should be considered so extreme that they are unsporting (e.g., delaying things by running past the ball). Whether we agree with it or not, however, the answers on the Ask a Referee website are not just Mr. Allen's opinions. They represent official answers by the U.S. Soccer Federation.

Note: there is a different answer under NFHS rules. The kicker is not permitted to interupt his or her movement (e.g., no stutter step moves). The failure to kick the ball requires a rekick! (NFHS 14-1-3.)

[Ref Flunkie]

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/fussball/Darf-man-so-einen-Penalty-schiessen/story/14850459

2 calendar days, and 2 answers from Mr. Allen that I have issue with. I think this is UNBELIEVABLE. There is a 0% chance that this will be allowed on my field. I'm interested in everyone else's opinion on this as well. I don't even like the idea that a player who stops once he reaches the ball is not considered feinting, but this player actually makes a kicking motion. I think it begs the question: If this isn't feinting, then what is?

Do you have a link to his answer (I can't tell from your post what his answer was)? It is my interpretation (and that of the instructors at the recert this year) that what happened in this video is NOT allowed and should have been called back. You can stutter step on your way to the ball, but the run up and kick must be reasonably continuous. It is my impression that you may NOT stop when you reach the ball, wait for the keeper to go one way, and then kick it the other way.

[refmedic]

Do you have a link to his answer (I can't tell from your post what his answer was)? It is my interpretation (and that of the instructors at the recert this year) that what happened in this video is NOT allowed and should have been called back. You can stutter step on your way to the ball, but the run up and kick must be reasonably continuous. It is my impression that you may NOT stop when you reach the ball, wait for the keeper to go one way, and then kick it the other way.


This is the text from www.askasoccerreferee.com (http://www.askasoccerreferee.com) and the answer was dated today. Mr. Wickham is correct that feinting is allowed under the LOTG unless is is considered unsporting. I was thinking that it should be disallowed because it IS unsporting IMO, I guess I just didn't write it. I'm still not allowing this, and if I have to caution the kicker to make it kosher, then I will. I think USSF's justification for this is weak at best, and laughs in the face of the SOTG. The PK decision is for a DFK foul in the PA. THen law 14 takes over. The taking of the kick is supposed to be a fair duel (I love that word) between the kicker and the GK. There is nothing fair about this. It is more trickery than feinting. The kicker can do cartwheels on his way to the ball, but faking a kick (with a kicking motion) to decieve the GK is trickery. IF the GK guesses correctly and times his dive right, he has a fair shot at making a save. I think it is a travesty that this goal was counted.

Question:
This was forwarded to me, and if i understand the new interpretation, it might be legal - can’t say i like it, however.
==> http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/fussball/Darf-man-so-einen-Penalty-schiessen/story/14850459
Please evaluate and comment.
USSF answer (December 11, 2008):
An excerpt from Advice to Referees 14.9 is useful here:
Infringements after the referee’s signal but before the ball is in play may be committed by the kicker, the goalkeeper, or by any of their teammates. Violations of Law 14 by the kicker in particular include back heeling the ball (14.12), running past the ball and then backing up to take the kick, excessively changing directions in the run to the ball or taking an excessively long run to the ball (which, in the opinion of the referee, results in an unnecessary delay in taking the kick), or making any motion of the hand or arm which (in the opinion of the referee) is clearly intended to confuse or misdirect the attention of the ‘keeper. In almost all such cases, the referee should let the kick proceed and deal with the violation in accordance with the chart below [not included here], which outlines the proper restarts for clear infringements of Law 14. However, in the case of a kicker creating an unnecessary delay in taking the kick, the referee should intervene, if possible, warn the kicker to proceed properly, and signal again for the restart.
In response to a question similar to yours, we provided this answer in 2001; it is fully in line with the latest guidance from the IFAB and FIFA:
USSF answer (April 25, 2001):
Feinting at a penalty kick, provided it is done without lapsing into unsporting behavior, is allowed. The judgment of unsporting behavior is at the discretion of the referee, who should remember that players are permitted to deceive their opponents at the taking of free kicks outside the penalty area using well rehearsed drills. The penalty kick should be treated in the same way. Remember that the penalty is awarded because of an offense by the defending team. One example of unsporting behavior would be to step over the ball, hesitate, and then bring the foot back again to kick the ball.
We might add to the earlier response that the kicker’s behavior must not, in the opinion of the referee, unduly delay the taking of the kick.
Any instance of unsporting behavior must be in the opinion of the referee, based on that particular act in that particular game at that particular moment of the game. Although there are certain actions that will always be unsporting behavior, we cannot arbitrarily set a list of actions that must be called as unsporting behavior in the case of feinting at a penalty kick. The referee has to take responsibility for some of his own decisions.
The officials on the game clearly believed the decision to be correct. In our opinion, the action of the kicker rides close to the edge but is legal. Apart from the fact that he did not do any of the things we list in the Advice as being examples of a kicker violation of Law 14 (see above) — there is no requirement that the kicker RUN to the ball at all. He could walk, trot, sprint, or even just stand behind the ball. So he ran to the ball and stopped. Suppose he had started walking toward the ball and then, from about 1-2 yards away, broke into a sprint before taking the kick. Would this have been illegal?
We invite our readers to go to the URL in question and decide for themselves the correct answer: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/fussball/Darf-man-so-einen-Penalty-schiessen/story/14850459
NOTE: The German title asks the question, “May someone shoot a penalty kick this way?”

[Ref Flunkie]

I think it is a travesty that this goal was counted.


Agreed, and like I said, this is exactly what our instructors said was NOT allowed. See THIS is why around this time of year I debate about switching to a different sport to referee.

[refmedic]

Agreed, and like I said, this is exactly what our instructors said was NOT allowed. See THIS is why around this time of year I debate about switching to a different sport to referee.

My dad went to lacrosse. Apparently the money is MUCH better.

[Nesto]

The officials on the game clearly believed the decision to be correct. In our opinion, the action of the kicker rides close to the edge but is legal. Apart from the fact that he did not do any of the things we list in the Advice as being examples of a kicker violation of Law 14 (see above) — there is no requirement that the kicker RUN to the ball at all. He could walk, trot, sprint, or even just stand behind the ball. So he ran to the ball and stopped. Suppose he had started walking toward the ball and then, from about 1-2 yards away, broke into a sprint before taking the kick. Would this have been illegal?
We invite our readers to go to the URL in question and decide for themselves the correct answer: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sport/fussball/Darf-man-so-einen-Penalty-schiessen/story/14850459
NOTE: The German title asks the question, “May someone shoot a penalty kick this way?”

Have to say I don't see what's so bad about it. As Jim notes, he doesn't do any of the things ATR says to disallow. The kicker didn't even follow through with his feint - his kicking foot didn't even go past his plant foot on the feint.

[Ref Flunkie]

My dad went to lacrosse. Apparently the money is MUCH better.

I know nothing about lacrosse :). Basketball and football were my top 2 choices.

[refmedic]

I know nothing about lacrosse :). Basketball and football were my top 2 choices.

It's ok, he doesn't either, and he'll be the first to tell you that! :D

[hradilv]

Have to say I don't see what's so bad about it. As Jim notes, he doesn't do any of the things ATR says to disallow. The kicker didn't even follow through with his feint - his kicking foot didn't even go past his plant foot on the feint.

Agreed. But, I think, unfortunate. It seems that the feint is, in the opinion of this referee, not unsporting and should be allowed. With that said, I would be all for changing the ATR to be more strict about these things. It certainly makes it more difficult for the GK, and MUCH more difficult for the referee. The grey area is growing...

[Rufusabc]

And we should make it easier for the defending team why? If the crime was committed in an area that called for a penalty, then the shooter should get ALL the benefit of the doubt.

[hradilv]

And we should make it easier for the defending team why? If the crime was committed in an area that called for a penalty, then the shooter should get ALL the benefit of the doubt.

I agree - I don't think I was that clear. I guess it's a matter of degrees. Sure it should be relatively easy for the kicker to make the pk, but taken to the extreme, we could just make the pk kicker only, no GK. That would be pretty easy - for most - maybe not for RvN ;)

But anyway, I think you have to balance the advantages and disadvantages, so the penalty fits the crime. I'll be honest - I don't know exactly how this could/should be done.

[dadcoachref]

IMO - this is pretty blatant...the kicker looks left, fakes his kick left, stops his kicking motion, recoils and kicks right...I would call this no goal...

[hradilv]

IMO - this is pretty blatant...the kicker looks left, fakes his kick left, stops his kicking motion, recoils and kicks right...I would call this no goal...

Sure it's blatant, sure it's a feint, but why is it illegal? According to the LOTG and the ATR (and apparently FIFA from someone's post above) feinting is allowed, so long as it is not USB.

[I have to interject here that I think the action is appalling, but it seems that the ref's hands are tied. If I were the ref, I'd love to disallow the goal, but it might be hard to justify]

[ref47]

if this was an ordinary fk would we have a problem? kicker approaches and does the fake left thing and kicks the ball over the right side of the wall. problem? of coarse not. and hasn't ifab said the two situations should have equal treatment?!

[refmike]

Some of us are just resistant to change.

The OLD ruling was that the run up to take a penalty kick must be continuous.
A change of pace was allowed but not a stop/restart.
Several years ago, the IFAB ruled that a feint was allowed, which now means that the run does NOT have to be continuous.

Such is the nature of this game. There is some change every year. Deal with it.

[DadOf6]

and hasn't ifab said the two situations should have equal treatment?!

They should have equal treatment...

...except when they shouldn't.

Attackers must remain > 10 yards from the ball until it is kicked.
Defenders must also remain at least 10 yards from the ball, except the 'keeper who must be at least 12 yards from the ball and on the goal line.
The kicker on a PK must be identified...

[SouthRef]

Some of us are just resistant to change.

The OLD ruling was that the run up to take a penalty kick must be continuous.
A change of pace was allowed but not a stop/restart.
Several years ago, the IFAB ruled that a feint was allowed, which now means that the run does NOT have to be continuous.

Such is the nature of this game. There is some change every year. Deal with it.


An interesting example. In these cases, I like to go to this:

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/developing/refereeing/teachingmaterial.html

You can find the referee's committee opinion regarding this behavior here:

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afdeveloping/refereeing/law%5f14%5fthe%5fpenalty%5fkick%5fen%5f47369.pdf

which says

"Feinting to take a penalty kick is permitted as part of football.
However, if in the opinion of the referee, the feinting is considered an act of unsporting behavior, the player shall be cautioned."

Maybe I'm too simple minded, but I take that to mean if I think he cheats, he gets booked and the kick is retaken.

Obviously, that ref didn't think that that player cheated.

I may have a differing opinion.

[DWickham]

FIFA, since 2000, has made the standard identical for free kicks and penalty kicks. Indeed, the 2008 FIFA Interpretations and Guidelines, annexed to the laws, uses the same paragraph in both Law 13 and Law 14:

"Feinting to take a free kick to confuse opponents is permitted as part
of football. However, if in the opinion of the referee, the feinting
is considered an act of unsporting behaviour, the player must be
cautioned."

[dadcoachref]

Sure it's blatant, sure it's a feint, but why is it illegal? According to the LOTG and the ATR (and apparently FIFA from someone's post above) feinting is allowed, so long as it is not USB.

[I have to interject here that I think the action is appalling, but it seems that the ref's hands are tied. If I were the ref, I'd love to disallow the goal, but it might be hard to justify]

actually I have to agree with you the more I watch the video...I would have to swallow my whistle and let it stand...