Jaime Moreno's Statistics Suck

[BudWiser]

I like Jaime Moreno a lot. He's a class guy that has provided DC United memories that currently makes DC United the greatest team in the history of MLS. But I can't help but be upset at his lack of fitness and determination this year. The missed game-winning PKs and that missed sitter at the San Jose game was really hard to take

Statistics time for Moreno. I know they don't tell the whole story but then again they don't lie either. They always tell at least part of the story

Let's take away Moreno's PK. We have the following:
Quaranta: 949 minutes, 3 goals, 4 assists
Moreno: 951 minutes, 2 goals, 2 assists
Curtis: 768 minutes, 3 goals, 1 assist
Conteh: 286 minutes, 1 goal
Lassiter: 387 minutes, nothing
Quintanilla: 339 minutes, 2 goals

So that comes out to the following:
Quaranta:goal every 316 minutes
Moreno: goal every 475.5 minutes
Curtis: goal every 256 minutes
Conteh: goal every 286 minutes
Lassiter: no goals
Quintanilla: goal every 169.5 minutes

According to the statistics, Jaime Moreno is by far the worst forward on DC United, except for Lassiter. And he's on the worst offensive team in the league. He's often injured, he misses PKs. He takes up the maximum salary. He's not getting any younger.

Let's take a look at the top goal scorers' statistics (granted this includes PKs):

Twellman: 15g, 1870min, goal every 125 minutes
Ruiz: 1832min, 16g, goal every 114.5 minutes
Razov: 13g, 1727min, goal every 133 minutes
Cunningham: 1587min, 13g, goal every 122 minutes
Kreis: 13g, 1938min, goal every 149 minutes
Diallo: 12g, 817min, goal every 74 minutes

Seems to me Jaime Moreno is not in the same stratosphere as the top forwards in the league. He needs to start scoring at a MUCH greater rate OR-as a max salary player-and that is key-we should THANK HIM FOR THE MEMORIES (no doubt about that!!) yet we should CUT HIM OFF or, if we can, TRADE HIM

I want to hear people's excuses for his lack of output.

I can hear some already.

Excuse 1: Moreno did better last year

In case you're wondering about his stats last year, he had 9 goals in 1888 minutes, making 2 of 3 penalty shots. Taking away his penalty goals, that's 1 goal every 270 minutes. Stats-wise, he was the worst forward on the team on a time-per-goal average, with Conteh, Quaranta, and Diaz Arce beating him. Unless you want to count Albright as a forward, in which case, yes, Moreno was better than Albright (Albright scored 1 goal in 1411 minutes)

Excuse 2: Moreno has assists

He had 6 assists last year, but only 2 this year. Yes he has some assists, but are 2 assists this year enough to keep him around??

Excuse 3: He's not in shape and will be

What makes you think he'll get in shape? What makes you think he won't continue to get injured? He's not getting any younger. Maybe he's finished.

Excuse 4: We win with him around

Not in the last 3 years.

Like I said, we all like Jaime Moreno. But please start giving me legitimate reasons for why this guy should not be traded or cut in the offseason.

[Th4119]

Thanks, Bud. His stats are pathetic.

[1MADDOG]

Truthfully, I never really liked him. He has a very relaxed approach to the game that makes me want to kick him in the ass so he can run alittle bit.

He has the speed and dribbling ability to be a great forward, but he is too lazy. I don't think that will ever change. If a ball is stolen from him, he rarely does anything to get the ball back. His style sucks and its what kept him from the national team picture.

When he is turned on, which is rare, he is perhapes one of the best forwards in the league. But thats something that rarely happends. He is a waste of talent, his mind will never measure up to his talent.

I wish he could play with flair, attitude, and balls. I truely believe he has the tools to be one of the best players in the world, except his mind is lazier then a turtle. He would make a wonderful asset to the BOlivian national team if he can get the mind game working.

Trade him and get a player that has spirit and talent. Moreno only has the talent, but no spirit.

[Cweedchop]

Not that this will improve his statistics greatly, but Jaime has 3 goals this season, not two...


And for what it's worth, statistics are as about as useless as tits on a mule...

[CHICO13]

He scores against the Metropukes on a regular basis. :)

[Red&Black]

to me this is less a football decision than a business one. the real question is does moreno provide more value on the roster or as a move to get another player.

that is, could we get someone of equal value for his spot? he has certainly struggled the last two years and whether he can turn it around next year is open to debate. but bringing in another high-profile forward or a "project" isn't necessarily more certain than jaime returning to his former form.

there is absolutely no question that we need to be better at striker but the question is, can we find someone, we can afford (and can we move the players we need to move to find the cash) who is much more likely to produce than Jaime? that to me seems to be the real question here. i wouldn't want to release jaime and then have substandard guys filling that spot.

personally i think jaime is young enough to get fit and play like he did a few years ago. i'd love to seem him, tino, convey, q2, ben and etch have a go on attack. but whatever, i hope the team thinks through the most value in the situation.

[Dave Brother]

Stats schmats......Just as in life, love and business there are good and bad times. Just so happens, collectivly United had hit the skids over the past 3 year. Look for Jamie and the rest of the team to be back where we should. If not maybe you'll see em with a cup standing outside a Metro station because My Man Ray will make the necessary changes to get more hardware in the cabinet.

[Topo]

While Moreno's statistics are pretty horrible, the other forwards aren't exactly burning up the league either.

I looked at his MLS history and Zambrano has a meager minutes per goal statistic too, I think. What's up with that?

[BudWiser]

Originally posted by Topo
I looked at his MLS history and Zambrano has a meager minutes per goal statistic too, I think. What's up with that?

True. According to Knave's post about a week or so ago, Henry Zambrano scores a goal every 452.6 minutes. Here's a link to his post:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=7736&pagenumber=2

Since Jaime Moreno scores a goal every 475.5 minutes, HENRY ZAMBRANO, the forward on the WORST OFFENSIVE TEAM IN MLS HISTORY, HAS A BETTER GOALS PER MINUTE RATE THAN JAIME MORENO

But wait....taking away his PK gives him 4 goals over 2263 minutes (by the way, Cweed take a look at my post again I realized Moreno scored 3 and took away his PK to make it 2-in fact we should take away 1 for the 2 misses and have him w/1 goal for the year...anyway that's another debate)....

Then HFZ scores a goal every 565.75 minutes

I was totally against the Zambrano move. Roughly, though, this year, HFZ=Jaime Moreno in stats. In fact, Zambrano's MetroStars year stats are ABOUT PERFECTLY EQUAL to Moreno's stats this year-Zambrano's stats being a little better that year

Anybody in the mood to dish out $250,000 for Moreno??? Didn't think so.

Last place comes w/consequences. Wake up or see ya Mr. Jaime Moreno. Thanks for the memories.

[mikemeg]

It's just not that clear-cut.

1) You have to include the PKs. It ends up being to his detriment, but if you're going to include everybody else's PKs, you've gotta include his. He contributes to causing PKs, so it's silly to pull those out of his stats.

2) He's never been a Ruiz, who is a goals-only guy. You absolutely have to include assists, or you're not capturing his impact.

3) Outside of Diallo, who has just ungodly points-per-minute stats, the top 10 scorers in the league are around 55-85 minutes per point. Jaime's mins-per-point over his whole career before this year is 62! Only 5 guys are doing that well this year, and it's his career average. His best year was 43.

4) How close is he to being a solid forward? If he hit two extra PKs, he's approaching the top level in mins-per-point, despite having (as we all acknowledge) a terrible year.

Look, I'm not claiming that it's a lead-pipe cinch that he'll come back next year and get a goal every other game and an assist every third game (his averages). He had injuries, he's not in shape. I don't think we know the full story. His career stats show that this year's the exception. If you can trade him and guarantee me that you're going to get a point every 60 minutes from whoever we get, then maybe we should do so. But I'm not seeing where all this production is sitting around for the taking. Hudson apparently busted his ass trying to find forwards, and we see what that's gotten us. And if he sucks so bad, obviously his trade value would be significantly diminished.

[1MADDOG]

Jaime doesnt have the motivation to be any better. He has only diminished his play since 96. His play in the national team has diminished, and the same as in United.

trade the fool unless he actually shows he wants to play ball.

[Fniyonga]

His laziness must have been one of the reasons he didn't cut it in Europe.

[mkpage]

I can't believe what I'm actually reading here. So Jaime is having a bad season by his usual standards. Since when is one sub-par season, after delivering the goods since '96 reason to pitch the guy to the gutter?

Did it ever occur to anyone that Jaime is coming off an off-season knee surgery? That he play hurt last season.

Is it reasonable for his production numbers to be the same with him being forced to play off of guys like Lassiter and Curtis?

Have you not noticed that Jaime, until this year, has been one of the MOST fouled player (most in 2001) in the league? And you wonder why he's injured frequently lately.

Despite his recent slump, there are very few players in the league like Jaime. His ability to hold the ball under preasure, dribbling ability, field vision and typically clinical finishing is the reason why, when healthy, I think you can make an argument he has no peer. DC United would be foolish as hell to get rid of him.

[BudWiser]

Originally posted by mkpage
Is it reasonable for his production numbers to be the same with him being forced to play off of guys like Lassiter and Curtis?

Are you serious??? Jaime Moreno's pathetic performance is due to Lassiter and Curtis??


On a technical note, I made a mistake I need to correct. HFZ actually MISSED his one and only PK. This means that, technically, HFZ gets a goal every 452.6 minutes. In which case-it's true, check it out if you don't believe me, but:

HFZ scored more goals per minute in his MLS career than Jaime Moreno is scoring goals per minute this year!!! Is HFZ a better player than this year's Jaime Moreno?? Good question!!!

[Lanky134]

Actually, that's minutes-per-goal, but I'm not one to nitpick.

Dave

[BudWiser]

Originally posted by Lanky134
Actually, that's minutes-per-goal, but I'm not one to nitpick.

Good point you got me there. However, I am still technically correct:

2002 Jaime Moreno: .0021 goals/minute
HFZ over his MLS career: .0022 goals/minute

Edge: HFZ

[mkpage]

Originally posted by BudWiser


Are you serious??? Jaime Moreno's pathetic performance is due to Lassiter and Curtis??


On a technical note, I made a mistake I need to correct. HFZ actually MISSED his one and only PK. This means that, technically, HFZ gets a goal every 452.6 minutes. In which case-it's true, check it out if you don't believe me, but:

HFZ scored more goals per minute in his MLS career than Jaime Moreno is scoring goals per minute this year!!! Is HFZ a better player than this year's Jaime Moreno?? Good question!!!

To be sure he's missed some goals that are inexcusable. And I'm not saying Jaime isn't having a bad year. I'm simply arguing that to get rid of him based on this year's production alone would be penny wise and pound foolish.

And for Pete's sake, what the heck does Zambrano have to do with Jaime? Comparing his career to Jaime's worst year and somehow implying he's better is statistically irrelivent. If you want to compare the two players why don't you take a crack at Jaime's career stats. I think you'll find there's no comparison.

Since you seemingly have someone else playing in Jaime's role next season, who do you suppose is going to be better? If Jaime is as worthless as you make him to be, what makes you think we'll get equal value in return from another MLS team? And not that I know for certain, but I don't think cutting him is an option due to his contract.

[BudWiser]

Originally posted by mkpage
To be sure he's missed some goals that are inexcusable.

No s-- I've actually lost some sleep over it-I can't imagine how much sleep Ray Hudson has lost over it

Since you seemingly have someone else playing in Jaime's role next season, who do you suppose is going to be better?

Hmmm...any SI's out there willing to play forward for $250,000 a year?? Do I have any takers?? Hey.....don't get in line so quick!! Everybody take numbers we'll get to you eventually!!

If Jaime is as worthless as you make him to be, what makes you think we'll get equal value in return from another MLS team?

Keep in mind getting rid of Moreno also gives us another SI slot-so that makes him even more worthless

We traded Albright didn't we. And trust me there are GMs who still believe he's good and are dumb enough and pompous enough not to read BigSoccer threads like this one

I don't think cutting him is an option due to his contract.

Then trade him.

Joke here.
Maybe Sigi will take him if we included a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken-but we already suckered him into the Albright trade once and Sigi told me personally he believes what Scotty in StarTrek said long ago, which is-"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." So Sigi said no matter how much he wants that bucket of chicken, he will NOT...and he repeated emphatically NOT....be suckered into a short-term gain for a long-term pain. (In case you didn't know....Sigi has a belly that makes Santa Claus look like a spokesman for Slim Fast)

[Th4119]

Originally posted by BudWiser


So Sigi said no matter how much he wants that bucket of chicken, he will NOT...and he repeated emphatically NOT....be suckered into a short-term gain for a long-term pain. (In case you didn't know....Sigi has a belly that makes Santa Claus look like a spokesman for Slim Fast)

A belly I hit with a Freekick program mind you.

OK back on topic...

[Jose L. Couso]

Originally posted by BudWiser
2002 Jaime Moreno: .0021 goals/minute
HFZ over his MLS career: .0022 goals/minute

Edge: HFZ

Wow!

We could have won every MLS Cup with HFZ on the team.

Probably a few doubles.

A few more TFC Champions Cups.

A few more InterAmerican Cups.

And probably a World Club Championship Cup!

Heck HFZ has a bigger goals/minute than Roberto Carlos so he must even better than Roberto Carlos!

Of course 2002 is not over, so Moreno's stats are not truly reflective of the whole year.

Moreno will tear the Metrodonkeys a new one!