Awkward Pitch

[CDM76]

Had a U12G tournament final last weekend. Tournament rules were short-sided (9 v 9) for U12s.

The pitch was 100 yds by 46 yds with regulation PA so there was only 1 yard between the touch line and the edge of the PA.

Play was generally fair and few calls were required. A few lazy foot fouls, one obvious trip and some handling. Players were respectful and responsive to verbal guidance.

The problem was when attackers were driving to the corners there would be some pretty typically aggressive charging going on. On a wider field, I would have felt comfortable calling some fouls and taking a bit of vinegar out of the play. Because this field was so narrow, the action was actually taking place in the PA.

Felt excessively harsh calling a penalty for an attacker driving toward the goal line on touch.

I spoke with players but there were probably about four incidents (3 against the losing side, 1 against the winners) where I would have whistled had the play been on a more traditionally sized field.

The losing side was outclassed and down 5-1 before a late goal (on an advantage call) and a last minute penalty (pushing foul in the dying minute by a tired kid in her fourth match in two days).

No injuries, no cards, a fair result but I felt like a bit of a Kentucky Fried Ref (chicken in the box).

Any one else experienced something similar? How'd you handle it? Hate calling a penalty in the 4th minute on a play that had almost zero goal-scoring potential.

[Sachsen]

Like Jim Allen constantly says, if you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc.

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.

[NHRef]

I understand your discomfort, but think of it this way, you have two ways to look at the foul location:

- really close to the touch line
- within 18 yards of the net

Just because they overlap..... But I do understand your concern.

[arsynic]

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.



the kind of referring that ruins good games...

[ref47]

trifling, doubtfull, unfair????

[hradilv]

Like Jim Allen constantly says, if you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc.

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.

the kind of referring that ruins good games...

No - the kind of player behavior that ruins good games.

[arsynic]

you sound like you've never played a game in your life.

i'm sure your one of those refs that gets in a hissy fit when the ball is moved a yard away from where the foul happened. what happened to making calls within the spirit of the game.

[hradilv]

the kind of referring that ruins good games...

Like Jim Allen constantly says, if you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc.

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.

you sound like you've never played a game in your life.

i'm sure your one of those refs that gets in a hissy fit when the ball is moved a yard away from where the foul happened. what happened to making calls within the spirit of the game.

That's not at all what I am saying. My point is that you are inventing your own rules. The laws are clear - a foul in the PA is a PK. Mind you, if it's trifling, it's not a foul. But if it is a foul that would be called anywhere else on the field - you have to call it in the PA. It's not some magical area that makes fouls disappear, unless you, the ref, thinks the team had a good chance of scoring in the first place.

I also take a little issue with the wording of the original post that "On a wider field, I would have felt comfortable calling some fouls and taking a bit of vinegar out of the play" A foul's a foul. Fouls should not be called/not called depending on the tenor of the game - they should be called when they occur and not called when they don't.

Look at it another way. Say your playing on a field that has a goal that is 1 foot shorter than regulation (nevermind the fact that this shouldn't happen - neither should a large PA on a small field), and a player sends a shot just over the cross-bar. Oh! that's a goal because it would have gone in on a different field that has proper goals. No, of course not - you play with the field the way it is, or take it up with the competition officials.

BTW, I have been playing for about 40 years now, and if I was an attacker who was fouled inside the PA, I'd expect a PK.

[IASocFan]

...
Any one else experienced something similar? How'd you handle it? Hate calling a penalty in the 4th minute on a play that had almost zero goal-scoring potential.

Like Jim Allen constantly says, if you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc.

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.

trifling, doubtfull, unfair????

Good comments. I think you have to call a penalty on fouls that deserve it anywhere in the box. I think all referees have a different sense of trifling and degree of certainty (that a foul occurred) once the play is in the box.

I understand your discomfort, but think of it this way, you have two ways to look at the foul location:
- really close to the touch line
- within 18 yards of the net
...
Not sure I understand this point.

you sound like you've never played a game in your life.

i'm sure your one of those refs that gets in a hissy fit when the ball is moved a yard away from where the foul happened. what happened to making calls within the spirit of the game.
I do understand this point, and I don't think it appropriately made! Most all of us here have refereed and played at some level for numerous years. Let's keep our comments professional and less personal.


That's not at all what I am saying. My point is that you are inventing your own rules. The laws are clear - a foul in the PA is a PK. Mind you, if it's trifling, it's not a foul. But if it is a foul that would be called anywhere else on the field - you have to call it in the PA. It's not some magical area that makes fouls disappear, unless you, the ref, thinks the team had a good chance of scoring in the first place.

I also take a little issue with the wording of the original post that "On a wider field, I would have felt comfortable calling some fouls and taking a bit of vinegar out of the play" A foul's a foul. Fouls should not be called/not called depending on the tenure of the game - they should be called when they occur and not called when they don't.

...if I was an attacker who was fouled inside the PA, I'd expect a PK.

Good point!

[refmedic]

No - the kind of player behavior that ruins good games.

That's not at all what I am saying. My point is that you are inventing your own rules. The laws are clear - a foul in the PA is a PK. Mind you, if it's trifling, it's not a foul. But if it is a foul that would be called anywhere else on the field - you have to call it in the PA. It's not some magical area that makes fouls disappear, unless you, the ref, thinks the team had a good chance of scoring in the first place.

I also take a little issue with the wording of the original post that "On a wider field, I would have felt comfortable calling some fouls and taking a bit of vinegar out of the play" A foul's a foul. Fouls should not be called/not called depending on the tenor of the game - they should be called when they occur and not called when they don't.

Look at it another way. Say your playing on a field that has a goal that is 1 foot shorter than regulation (nevermind the fact that this shouldn't happen - neither should a large PA on a small field), and a player sends a shot just over the cross-bar. Oh! that's a goal because it would have gone in on a different field that has proper goals. No, of course not - you play with the field the way it is, or take it up with the competition officials.

BTW, I have been playing for about 40 years now, and if I was an attacker who was fouled inside the PA, I'd expect a PK.

Like Jim Allen constantly says, if you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc.

A foul in the PA is a PK. As long as everyone can see the lines, everyone should be aware of the danger of committing a foul in that area.

Hear Hear!!

Sometimes we may think too much about the Spirit of the game, and use our own definition of the "Spirit" of the game to justify not enforcing the LAWS of the game. If the foul is trifling, it's still a foul, but you don't whistle for it, because it's trifling. I'm guessing that the OP did NOT think these fouls were trifling, because he would have whistled them anywhere else on the field.

I know that he wanted to take some of the vinegar out of the game, and there is an easy way to do that. After you have awarded the 2nd or 3rd penalty, the players will probably stop fouling in that area of the field. It is not our job to protect the players from their own unwise decisions. From the time they first lace up a pair of boots, players learn that if you commit a DFK foul in the PA, a penalty will be awarded to the offended team. I can tell that arsynic is a player, and is coming at it from a players' perspective first. He needs to realize that referees don't look at these situations like that. A player may be thinking "why are you calling so many fouls in the PA, you're ruining the game", while the referee is thinking "why don't you players stop commiting fouls in the PA, it's ruining the game". If the foul is trifling or doubtful, then allow play to continue. If the fouls were suspect enough to make you feel that you should be calling them, then blow your whistle and award the penalty. If the players don't want to have so many penalties called, then they can stop fouling their opponent in the PA.

As a referee we have only 2 functions (and I think people will argue that there are more, but IMO they fit into these 2 categories): 1. Control the game. 2. Protect the players. In this situation we are talking about 11 year-old girls. These are not vicious, physical children by nature. They will continue to progress along the path of increased physicality until you stop them. The only reason that they kept playing in the manner that they were is because you let them.

Every time a question comes up in this forum that starts with something along the lines of "In X tournament under Y rules and Z conditions" someone inevitably brings up a prepackaged response from a man that I respect greatly: If you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc." (Thank you Sachsen for making this point) If you get to a tournament and find something that you are uncomfortable with, then get back in your car, or ask to be reassigned to a different field/venue.

For what it's worth, it sounds like if you had awarded penalties for those fouls like you thought you should have, then the scoreline would have been different, and the game might have been closer or turned out differently. Wheras one team may ask you to stop calling penalties because it's ruining the game, the other might ask you to START calling the penalties, because you are ruining their game. Stay true to yourself and let your gut lead you to the right decision.

[OldAndNew]

"If you accept the assignment, you accept everything that goes with it. Rules of competition, field size and condition, etc."

First thing I do when I get to a tournament is inquire (of the TD or Ref Assignor is "Are there any 'funky' rules here?"


My philosophy is that if they are paying me to uphold those rules and I take the money, I'll uphold them - and hold them accountable to field any complaints from players, coaches, spectators.

I don't have to like - or agree with - the goofy rules the TD has concocted - I just have to enforce them.

Would you go to a dance and start doing the rumba knowing the band had called for (and was playing) a waltz?

[arsynic]

i believe if the foul hindered a goal scoring opportunity, it should be a PK. However, if the "foul" was inconsequential to the action on the pitch (such as the minor hand balls that are often not called in the box at high levels) or if the attacker clearly wouldn't have scored on the play whether the challenge occurred or not (making the assumption that the foul wasn't particularly violent or blatant), then it is probably best to let the play continue.

If we take a step back and think what the rules were implemented for in the first place, a penalty kick is basically an award of a clear and easily finished scoring opportunity, that should be awarded when a similar opportunity has been denied by the other team by illegal means. I don't think penalty calls should be punitive the way some refs do, i think they should the merely restore the chance that was denied by the other team. One goal, especially at more competitive levels, effectively ends the game, and this formalistic approach to applying the rules makes me sick.

Any time a referee calls a foul, he should be aware of the consequences, and the consequences of awarding a foul in the box are drastically different than awarding one in the box.

[hradilv]

Any time a referee calls a foul, he should be aware of the consequences, and the consequences of awarding a foul in the box are drastically different than awarding one in the box.

And any time a player commits a foul, he should be aware of the consequences. If you cheat - break the rules - you will be punished.

[OldAndNew]

Any time a referee calls a foul, he should be aware of the consequences, and the consequences of awarding a foul in the box are drastically different than awarding one in the box.

And LOTG (page 33), in reference to the 10 DFK offenses, says:

Penalty Kick

A penalty kick is awarded if any of the above ten offences is committed
by a player inside his own penalty area, irrespective of the position of
the ball, provided it is in play.


To slightly adjust your phrase, it is the PLAYER who 'needs to be aware of the consequences of committing a foul in the box'.

[arsynic]

way not to address any of my points.

rule was likely made for retarded refs that couldn't tell when to call a PK or not.

formalism v. realism, realism wins.

[arsynic]

And any time a player commits a foul, he should be aware of the consequences.

i think the players are: the refs should be too.

[IASocFan]

i think the players are: the refs should be too.


If the 11 year old players in the original post realized a hard foul 24 yards from the goal would generate a PK 12 yards from the goal, there wouldn't be so many fouls in the penalty area. You can't call every touch a foul, but if the foul is one you need to call, do your duty. The players will adjust.

I've seen too many refs not call penalties that should have been called, than call penalties that shouldn't.


NOTE: The above statement does NOT apply to accidental handballs!

[CDM76]

[snip]
I also take a little issue with the wording of the original post that "On a wider field, I would have felt comfortable calling some fouls and taking a bit of vinegar out of the play" A foul's a foul. Fouls should not be called/not called depending on the tenure of the game - they should be called when they occur and not called when they don't.[snip]I agree with your point which is my whole reason for posting and seeking input from other referees. A foul is a foul. The question is, what is the appropriate response to the foul.

If it is trifling, no call should be made or perhaps some verbal notice is given to the offending players that they are close to the threshold of careless. If it is careless, the whistle is blown and the appropriate restart is taken. You get where I'm going. A foul is a foul but there are additional circumstances that determine how the referee responds.

I also believe in adjusting my standard of a foul depending on the age and skill of the players involved. What is careless for a U10 rec leaguer is not necessarily careless for a varsity high schooler. It may be trifling (incidental contact on an aggressive slide tackle). It may be reckless (stepping on a foot in a scramble).

In this particular match, because of the proximity of the touch line to the PA, I didn't think the players necessarily perceived themselves as being in the PA.

This did change my response in that what, on a typical field, would have resulted in 30 yard DFK necessitated a PK (I will/would not fudge on location to turn a PK into a DFK). At the moment, awarding a PK seemed excessively harsh in terms of what the attacking team lost (speed of attack and marginal control of the ball).

I'm not certain why you take umbrage with honesty. I am querying my fellow referees regarding how and if they might have changed their response in similar circumstances.

Thus far, the majority clearly feel the response should be the same as if the circumstance did not exist. Since I generally find that calls I don't make are the ones I tend to regret, I'm strongly considering that my withholding on awarding the penalty was the less effective choice.

[arsynic]

If the 11 year old players in the original post realized a hard foul 24 yards from the goal would generate a PK 12 yards from the goal, there wouldn't be so many fouls in the penalty area. You can't call every touch a foul, but if the foul is one you need to call, do your duty. The players will adjust.



hard fouls should always be called. when did i ever say they shouldn't be?

and shouldn't a foul 24 yards from goal be outside the 18 yard box?

[IASocFan]

hard fouls should always be called. when did i ever say they shouldn't be?

and shouldn't a foul 24 yards from goal be outside the 18 yard box?

It's 25.2 yards from the goal post to the far corner of the Penalty Area!

18 * square root (2)! = 18 * 1.4 = 25.2


Don't question the math major!!