Sent off for tackling a pitch invader

[Kebbie Gazauzkas]

"Following their stunning UEFA Champions League victory away against Inter Milan, Henk Ten Cate’s Panathinaikos were held to a frustrating draw at home against Nikos Kostenoglou’s Asteras Tripolis. The match had a rather comical end to it however, with Argentinian goal-scorer Bastia bizarrely sent off for tripping up a crowd member who had evaded security and ran onto the pitch."


http://www.goal.com/en/news/117/greece/2008/11/29/988391/panathinaikos-trip-up-at-home-to-asteras

Will be interesting to see the video, haven't heard of any similar cases..

[Guy Fawkes]

Yeah, it had better be more than just how it says on the text there, because I think that would be a ridiculous decision to just send a player off for doing that.

[boylanj64]

I don't know, it obviously depends upon the exact situation, but I don't see how the referee can be wrong. Taken from ATR:

12.34 VIOLENT CONDUCT
It is violent conduct when a player (or substitute) is guilty of aggression towards an opponent (when they are not contesting for the ball) or towards any other person (a teammate, the referee, an assistant referee, a spectator, etc.). The ball can be in or out of play. The aggression can occur either on or off the field of play.

Unless it was the meekest tackle in history, taking down a spectator has to be violent conduct resulting in a red card. The referee was 100% correct.

[MassachusettsRef]

1:51 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlt0BYvyUa0

I can see it as violent conduct. It really wasn't necessary at all. Then again, this guy did invade the pitch (it's not like the player went into the stands like Cantona and attacked) and the kick wasn't particularly brutal. Could everyone got along with maybe a yellow? Perhaps, but given the Laws, you can't fault the referee.

Either way, this play differs, for me, from one about a year ago (can't remember what competition) where the player in question helped take out a clearly aggressive pitch invader who was evading security (I believe there's a thread on it somewhere).

[Ref Flunkie]

Wow, are you kidding me? I would have been happily giving the guy a handshake. Give me a break.

[Guy Fawkes]

Wow, are you kidding me? I would have been happily giving the guy a handshake. Give me a break.

Agree. That's a joke. Yeah, the rules say you can't do that to a spectator, but this is an obvious special case.

[aek chicago]

I saw the match.

Bastia kicked the invader in the leg area in an effort to trip him.

The invader wasn't running towards anyone in particular, and certainly not towards Bastia.

In fact, he was running in a circle.

I thought the red was correct.

[Kebbie Gazauzkas]

Thanks for the video and the comments!
It looks to me as if the fan was being chased by the stadium security guards and the player tried to make their job of apprehending the intruder easier by tripping him. I guess one has to consider the intent - whether Bastia was being spiteful and wanted to vent his frustration on someone, or simply concerned that the situation could get out of hand (e.g. with the spectator attacking another player or something along those lines). I tend to agree that a red seems rather harsh.

[Ref Flunkie]

Agree. That's a joke. Yeah, the rules say you can't do that to a spectator, but this is an obvious special case.

What "rule" says this? The only rule is the vague misconduct regarding violent conduct. So if this guy tripped a player in this manner, he would be sent off? I can understand it if he punched the fan, or even tackled the guy, but all he did was stick his leg out to trip him and remedy the situation quicker. You know what, if I'm a player and I see a fan attacking a referee, I sure as heck wouldn't help him out if a red card would be the thanks I would get for my intervention.

[boylanj64]

Having now seen the incident, I'm going to stand by my original post. Particularly this little bit ;)


...Unless it was the meekest tackle in history.

That trip hardly justified its billing; it'd be a foul and nothing more in the normal course of play, not the NFL-style wrap up I'd envisioned.

[MassachusettsRef]

The only rule is the vague misconduct regarding violent conduct. So if this guy tripped a player in this manner, he would be sent off? Interesting question. If this happened (player tripping an opponent) during a clear stoppage, what would you do? Just caution?

[MassachusettsRef]

Also, another thing to think about here is how this applies to the 99.99% of non-professional games that are done. Yes, in a stadium situation, there is security chasing the players and no professional players want to deal with pitch invaders. As such, even though the person is a supporter of one of the teams, no one is that upset when he's subdued.

But what of the local park league? From a recreational match right up to top Division 1 amateur leagues, it is incredibly likely that any "fan" is going to be closely associated with one of the two teams. No matter how in the wrong the spectator is, it is very possible that a trip like this is not going to be taken to kindly by the opposing team if the fan in question is associated with them.

[boylanj64]

Which is why the context matters; here, the player has no way of knowing which team the fan cares for (in fact, he seems interested only in getting on TV), and is simply helping out security. By USSF's advice, maybe VC, but it is is horrible game management. To build the basis for no red, go past USSF to FIFA, whose teaching materials on Law 12 state a player "is guilty of violent conduct if he uses EXCESSIVE force or brutality against a spectator, etc..."

The difference between this and local league is massive in so many ways. With security around, the subsequent subduing is not a major concern, but if it gets to the point that a U18 player trips an opponents crazed mother, we're talking a different context, different intentions, and a probable brawl on our hands, from which we'd be lucky to escape without assault charges, let alone a red card.

[MassachusettsRef]

The entire incident, with multiple angles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5imHN8-M4o

I am trying to figure out if the opposing team's players who rush toward the referee are pleading with him to rescind the red, or if they are just trying to get their voice heard while the other team's players surround him.

[MassachusettsRef]

Which is why the context matters; here, the player has no way of knowing which team the fan cares for (in fact, he seems interested only in getting on TV), and is simply helping out security. By USSF's advice, maybe VC, but it is is horrible game management. To build the basis for no red, go past USSF to FIFA, whose teaching materials on Law 12 state a player "is guilty of violent conduct if he uses EXCESSIVE force or brutality against a spectator, etc..."

The difference between this and local league is massive in so many ways. With security around, the subsequent subduing is not a major concern, but if it gets to the point that a U18 player trips an opponents crazed mother, we're talking a different context, different intentions, and a probable brawl on our hands, from which we'd be lucky to escape without assault charges, let alone a red card.I don't disagree with any of this. Truth be told, I think I'd be reluctant to give a red in this instance.

That being said, this entire argument rests on what "excessive force" against a spectator is in this situation. Obviously protecting oneself, a teammate, opponent or player would make it incredibly unlikely that any force is "excessive." In this case, though, it is at least debatable.

[Ref Flunkie]

Interesting question. If this happened (player tripping an opponent) during a clear stoppage, what would you do? Just caution?

So if the fan runs on during normal course of play, the guy can trip him?? I'm sorry, but any fan that invades the playing area (especially in THIS day and age), is open season for anyone on the field. I guess FIFA/US Soccer want to see a story like "Fan stabs player, team mates and opponents stand idle due to fear of being sent off for intervention". Agreed about the context of the game, as with local league, you can probably tell if it is just a crazed mother, or someone that appears to have bad intentions. Even in a local league, if there is a debate about what the person may do, I say take him down and ask questions later. I'm more likely to toss a player that gets upset over the restraint of the pitch invader.

[aek chicago]

What "rule" says this? The only rule is the vague misconduct regarding violent conduct. So if this guy tripped a player in this manner, he would be sent off?

Yes he would, for violent conduct.


I can understand it if he punched the fan, or even tackled the guy, but all he did was stick his leg out to trip him and remedy the situation quicker.

Actually, if he tackled the guy, his case of self defense might be greater.

You know what, if I'm a player and I see a fan attacking a referee, I sure as heck wouldn't help him out if a red card would be the thanks I would get for my intervention.

But the fan wasn't attacking the ref, or anyone else, for that matter. I saw the play as it unfolded during the course of the match. The fan was basically running around aimlessly with security in pursuit. The commentator even states after the red that it was the 100% correct thing to do.

[aek chicago]

The entire incident, with multiple angles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5imHN8-M4o

I am trying to figure out if the opposing team's players who rush toward the referee are pleading with him to rescind the red, or if they are just trying to get their voice heard while the other team's players surround him.

One of the opposing teams players is their captain, Giannis Goumas. I think he's trying to protect the ref. The other player in white (short guy) is former Inter midfielder Giorgos Karagounis. Karagounis complains about everything.

[aek chicago]

Interesting question. If this happened (player tripping an opponent) during a clear stoppage, what would you do? Just caution?

All the more reason for a straight red.

[boylanj64]

All the more reason for a straight red.

So, you're arguing that every time there is a stoppage and a player commit an act that could be a foul, it should be a red card? Do you know how few players we'd have left if every time someone shoves an opponent prior to a throw-in or during a confrontation, we have to send them off? Just because a trip is more blatant doesn't make it more violent than a push. However, tripping an opponent during a stoppage is more likely to lead to mass confrontation than a simple push. A quick red might avoid this, but I believe that dogmatically approaching it as an automatic red without consideration as to whether the player or the game needs the card is wrong.