Simak v. Donovan

[prk166]

I don't think Donovan was being double teamed last weekend. I think Ivan McKinley was covering him man to man and spent his time pushing and shoving and being bigger and unpleasant. It was not a pretty game.

It wasn't a pretty game? Of course not. What else would you expect from the worst team in the MLS, DC?

Maybe I missed this, but how is Simak? 22? 25? I'm just curious.

As for Landon, I have mixed feelings about where his career is going right now. He's 20 (right?) and while getting in playing time is good, being a big pain the rear for a manager isn't. He doesn't look to be the next Shearer or Maradonna. He doesn't have the luxury of being a pain in the rear. I'd love to seem him finish this season playing with the MLS. But he better get his rear back over to Germany to train with the team, play in the reserves & give himself a chance to get involved in a lil' senior team action. After that, I'm not sure. Maybe another season in the MLS will help him mature. Beyond that, I doubt he stands much to gain from playing in the US. For sure, he'll never break into the starting lineup for Leverkusen or any big club if he's not around playign with the team. =)

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Uhm, I don't know how far back your interest in Hejduk goes, but Hejduk got a contract with Bayer because he played well in World Cup 98. He was at least as good in World Cup 98, if not better, than he was in World Cup 2002. And, furthermore, Bayer won 10 of the 11 games Hejduk started in his first season at Leverkusen with him playing as a wing forward opposite Ze Roberto. Hejduk never was that effective again for Leverkusen.


Hejduk four years ago was merely living of his fighting spirit. He never gave up and ran, ran, ran - but quite uncontrolled. Today he is much more effective in his way of playing. For me his improved way of playing (and I really mean it, it's no joke) is symbolising the rise of the US soccer over the last ten to twelve years - from mere will to fight and get a result to a controlled and better skilled way of playing (though for both there is a lot to learn to make it to the top - what Frankie surely can't reach anymore).


I will say the probability is a lot higher than 0 that Donovan will never play for Leverkusen but be a sucess for another team in a Big 4 league. In fact, it is probable, though not overwhelminly so since there is a significant chance Donovan and Leverkusen will work it out and Donovan will play for Leverkusen. [/B]

I think we're not very far apart in our opinion on this one. In 2004 at the very latest you'll see Donovan playing for Leverkusen - I'd make a bet on this one.

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by maverick

I thought Baggio was a brilliant player, albeit with a relatively short shelf-life (injury after injury!).


Baggio was brilliant in 1990 and absolutely unbelievable in 1994. He had a good 1998 World Cup. That's 3 good/great World Cups. Not many can say that.

His goal in 1994 against Spain is one of the greatest ever. He single-handedly carried his team to the final, much like Maradona in 1986.

To me, Baggio is the greatest Italian player ever. Naturally, some others will choose a defender.

[JohnR]

Nothing to do with Donovan's best position ... but, maverick is right, he certainly is likeable.

95% of young sports jocks will credit their success to moral superiority, as in "My mama raised me right" or "While those other kids were lounging around, I was sweating bullets on my game." Notice that Donovan spares us this self-promotional humbuggery, and instead tells us the simple truth -- he was always good. Of course, he wouldn't have become a World Cup player if he didn't work at his game, have proper training, etc., but let's not exaggerate the importance of being earnest. Being a sports hero is less of a character test than one of genetics, and I for one appreciate that Donovan levels with us on that subject.

[notebook]

Originally posted by olafgb
At the moment you might be competitive in a stronger league further years in a smaller league are a waste of time, also regarding the development.
I think it's hard to tell what effect playing in a lower league has on a player's development. It seems like going to play in the Big 4 leagues has been a no brainer decision for the best players around the world. I am not sure there have been any great players from Africa and South America that have shown Donovan's current hestitation to go play in the Europe. So there appear to be limited examples of top players staying in lower leagues to draw conclusions from.

I can say that it has been somewhat startling how well players from Asian and European leagues have performed in the US professional baseball and basketball leagues right from the start. There is a guy from Japan, Ichiro Suzuki, who came right from the Japanese leagues and led the US league in batting percentage and this is the skill a baseball fan would least expect to translate well from lower league play.

Ronaldinho was very impressive in this past World Cup and I believe he plays in the French First Division which is a clear cut below the Big 4. Anyways I think the jury is out on what impact staying in MLS will have on Donovan's level of play.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by MarioKempes


Baggio was brilliant in 1990 and absolutely unbelievable in 1994. He had a good 1998 World Cup. That's 3 good/great World Cups. Not many can say that.

His goal in 1994 against Spain is one of the greatest ever. He single-handedly carried his team to the final, much like Maradona in 1986.

To me, Baggio is the greatest Italian player ever. Naturally, some others will choose a defender. Baggio was 23 in 1990, Donovan was 20 for his first World Cup. I don't know if I'd call him 'brilliant' in his first WC, but I wouldn't stop at just good either.

In 1994, he was playing with two bad hamstrings, a recently injured achilles tendon, and was constantly hammered throughout the tournament, playing 120 minutes, at noon, in California, in the summer. Maybe had something to do with his penalty miss. (even if he would have made it, Bebeto was up for Brazil)

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by olafgb


Hejduk four years ago was merely living of his fighting spirit. He never gave up and ran, ran, ran - but quite uncontrolled. Today he is much more effective in his way of playing. For me his improved way of playing (and I really mean it, it's no joke) is symbolising the rise of the US soccer over the last ten to twelve years - from mere will to fight and get a result to a controlled and better skilled way of playing (though for both there is a lot to learn to make it to the top - what Frankie surely can't reach anymore).


...



Actually, it is a joke. Hejduk was a guy who played because we had no other option due to a combination of factors. He was a filler, nothing more. The most you can say about his performance at the World Cup is that he didn't screw up. The symbol of the US's improvement is in the MLS players Donovan, Wolff, Mathis, Mastroeni and Pope.

[Ethel The Frog]

I think Frankie is a very good soccer player. Fast, determined, high stamina, good tackler. He is too good for the MLS, but not good enough to make the Leverkusen starting lineup -- which is very competitive. I am not surprised that his American "Surfer man" attitude does not play well with German management, but he was not included in the US lineup for 2002 as a joke. He was included because of his talent and skill.

The only problem I have with his play is his decision making. He tends to tackle from behind when the defensive line beaten. The thinking is that it is better to take a red card than give up a goal. I have seen him make that decision several times, and have disagreed with him. Yet I think his decision making has improved over the years, and the ability to read games is something that comes to defenders over time.

[dcc134]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Actually, it is a joke. Hejduk was a guy who played because we had no other option due to a combination of factors. He was a filler, nothing more. The most you can say about his performance at the World Cup is that he didn't screw up. The symbol of the US's improvement is in the MLS players Donovan, Wolff, Mathis, Mastroeni and Pope.


This discussion got me to watch the Germany/US match last night and I've come to the conclusion that the contribution of the Euro players is vastly understated because they didn't really provide the scoring.

I think the symbol of the US's improvement is the dramatic improvement in the quality of our Euro based players. Reyna absolutely dominated the midfield, got the US out of trouble and maintained possession throughout. He directly created 80% of the chances in that game. JOB was equally as good, although he didn't see as much of the ball. Our best defender was Sanneh, who it should be noted, was rated well below Pope 4 years ago, but outplayed him in every game, not that Pope played poorly. Lewis and Frankie, our winners of the "best talents to rot on the bench in Euroland" award, both performed at a high level. Call it "not f-ing up" but both were dangerous down the wings and defended relatively well.

The 4 MLSers who did start that game, all showed well, but quite frankly, without the Euros carrying the team, most of their effort would have been in vain.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Actually, it is a joke. Hejduk was a guy who played because we had no other option due to a combination of factors. He was a filler, nothing more. The most you can say about his performance at the World Cup is that he didn't screw up. The symbol of the US's improvement is in the MLS players Donovan, Wolff, Mathis, Mastroeni and Pope. I could give you a couple of options to get Hedjuk out.

1. Put Mathis at forward, Donovan on the wing.

2. Put Mathis at withdrawn forward, Wolff in place of Donovan, Donovan to the left, Reyna to the right, Pablo and JOB in back.

[Ethel The Frog]

DCC134,

Interesting comments on the value of MLS players vs. Euro players in the world cup.

I agree that the euro players were the core of the team and even that Lewis and Frankie did well. I would have preferred if we had DMB in for Lewis on the left wing in the Germany game, but I hear DMB was not at 100 per cent. I also wish Ben Olsen had been healthy as he seems to make things happen at right wing.

I think you cannot overstate the value of McBride to our world cup performance, though I do not know if he was in the lineup against Germany. Without McBride we have difficulty winning long balls and crosses into the box and our ability to open up defenses is much more limited. I am hoping that Casey will be able to play such a role for the US in the future, since it seems that Kirovski is not an air player or power forward.

[flanoverseas]

I heard Shawn Kemp has been released and he is an awesome power forward

[odg78]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
I heard Shawn Kemp has been released and he is an awesome power forward


Didn't I see him playing in that Pepsi commercial against Beckham and Davids?

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by dcc134



This discussion got me to watch the Germany/US match last night and I've come to the conclusion that the contribution of the Euro players is vastly understated because they didn't really provide the scoring.

I think the symbol of the US's improvement is the dramatic improvement in the quality of our Euro based players. Reyna absolutely dominated the midfield, got the US out of trouble and maintained possession throughout. He directly created 80% of the chances in that game. JOB was equally as good, although he didn't see as much of the ball. Our best defender was Sanneh, who it should be noted, was rated well below Pope 4 years ago, but outplayed him in every game, not that Pope played poorly. Lewis and Frankie, our winners of the "best talents to rot on the bench in Euroland" award, both performed at a high level. Call it "not f-ing up" but both were dangerous down the wings and defended relatively well.

The 4 MLSers who did start that game, all showed well, but quite frankly, without the Euros carrying the team, most of their effort would have been in vain.

Yes, Sanneh was good. Probably better than Pope overall. But only because he attacked better. The key to the defense was Eddie Pope, who defended better in a far more important position from a defensive standpoint.

Eddie Lewis was dangerous down the wing. Frankie, never was dangerous on the attack. Frankie, unlike Eddie, contributed only through the absence of negatives.

I certainly concede that JOB and Reyna's play in the middle was absolutely key, though maybe not more so than Donovan. So, I guess I don't know who was more key, the Euros or the MLSers. BUT I DO KNOW THE FOLLOWING:

1. It's expected that players playing in the Big 4 would excel. What is not necessarily expected is that MLSers could compete on the same level.

2. Even if the Euros were more key, it certainly was not Hejduk who was their flag bearer.

[dcc134]

Originally posted by Ethel The Frog
DCC134,

Interesting comments on the value of MLS players vs. Euro players in the world cup.

I agree that the euro players were the core of the team and even that Lewis and Frankie did well. I would have preferred if we had DMB in for Lewis on the left wing in the Germany game, but I hear DMB was not at 100 per cent. I also wish Ben Olsen had been healthy as he seems to make things happen at right wing.

I think you cannot overstate the value of McBride to our world cup performance, though I do not know if he was in the lineup against Germany. Without McBride we have difficulty winning long balls and crosses into the box and our ability to open up defenses is much more limited. I am hoping that Casey will be able to play such a role for the US in the future, since it seems that Kirovski is not an air player or power forward.


Well now that this thread is entirely off topic, I should inform you that you picked the wrong person to expect support from regarding the merits of McBride :). I'm not a McBride fan, and I had extremely low expectations for him going in. I was pleasantly surprised that he was able to raise his game. That said, beyond the Portugal game, which was by far the best of his career, where he did every thing well, and his goal against Mexico (brilliant finish), I thought he did little to help the cause, especially against Germany.

Against Germany and Mexico, two game I rewatched in the last week or so, Brian was totally out of gas and his on the balls skills left quite a bit to be desired. With his height advantage taken away against Germany, which he did start, he struggled to get into the flow of the game. He was repeatedly muscled of the ball and showed neither the vision, touch, or pace to be dangerous.

I will conceed that I may have overstated the impact of Mathis previously. I upon rewatching the game, it seemed like it took him and the team at least 10 minutes to find a rythm, one they would have had earlier had he started. He still was more dangerous than McBride, however, once he did settle. I still think not starting Mathis was a mistake.

I too wish we would have had Olsen, but remember a healthy Olsen is a Eurobased Olsen.

[dcc134]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Yes, Sanneh was good. Probably better than Pope overall. But only because he attacked better. The key to the defense was Eddie Pope, who defended better in a far more important position from a defensive standpoint.

Eddie Lewis was dangerous down the wing. Frankie, never was dangerous on the attack. Frankie, unlike Eddie, contributed only through the absence of negatives.

I certainly concede that JOB and Reyna's play in the middle was absolutely key, though maybe not more so than Donovan. So, I guess I don't know who was more key, the Euros or the MLSers. BUT I DO KNOW THE FOLLOWING:

1. It's expected that players playing in the Big 4 would excel. What is not necessarily expected is that MLSers could compete on the same level.

2. Even if the Euros were more key, it certainly was not Hejduk who was their flag bearer.


Good points Martin. I think we are mostly in agreement. The point I really wanted to make was not necessarily that our Euro players excelled, but the improvement of our euro based players from the 02 WC, over the play of our Euro based players from the 98 WC. While there has certainly been an improvement domestically, the improvement in the quality of the euro based players is one that is mostly overlooked. But I guess that just speaks to the overall improvement of the entire squad.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by dcc134



Good points Martin. I think we are mostly in agreement. The point I really wanted to make was not necessarily that our Euro players excelled, but the improvement of our euro based players from the 02 WC, over the play of our Euro based players from the 98 WC. While there has certainly been an improvement domestically, the improvement in the quality of the euro based players is one that is mostly overlooked. But I guess that just speaks to the overall improvement of the entire squad.

Fair enough. And I appologize for drifting this thread away from German soccer.

Back to the point, I think Donovan could start for Leverkusen, but will choose to avoid it like the plague.

[tpm]

Originally posted by olafgb
......But be careful with putting too much emphasis on just a few WC games. He surely played a good tournament, but it's entirely different to keep this high level over months. There have been other players being purchased after a good WC, who never showed similar performances on club stage later on. As long as Donovan doesn't show his abilities in a top league or repeats his performances at the 2006 WC, he'll still be considered a very talented prospect, but nothing more.

To get back on topic, I think the above statement from olafgb is very accurate. Club football is an entirely different animal than tournament football (bit it the WC, U-XX Championships or whatever) in that you must play at a high standard week-in and week-out. Landon has proven he is an excellent tournament player (WC, U-17s, and '01 MLS playoffs) but he has yet to prove it over an entire season, which is critical at the club level.

Granted, last year with SJ was his first opportunity and it took him about half the season to get going, and even then he would drift in and out of matches. This year has been tough because of all of the international duty, but I still see him drift in and out of matches - I don't recall seeing him stamp his mark on any match for a full 90. IMO, he really needs to be consistently influential at the MLS level before he could even think that Toppi would consider him as a challenger for a spot in the first 11.

Now, let me be clear: I think Landon has the talent to be a starter in a top 4 league, maybe even for BL, but he needs to show that he can play at a high-level on a regular basis. If you can't do that at the club level, you won't get you big game chances.

Anyone remember Claudio's "advice" to Cletus during his pre-WC transfer hype about it being more of "a job" when you play in a top league (for which he got slammed for on these boards, IIRC)? Well, it's true. It's the mental part of competing every single day, practice or game, that gives you the consistency to become a regular selection.

[tpm]

Oh, and re: Simak. I don't know much about him other than he's very talented and very volatile, but from what I understand, he "consistently" dominated in B2, thereby earning his transfer to BL and a chance to start.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Actually, it is a joke. Hejduk was a guy who played because we had no other option due to a combination of factors. He was a filler, nothing more. The most you can say about his performance at the World Cup is that he didn't screw up. The symbol of the US's improvement is in the MLS players Donovan, Wolff, Mathis, Mastroeni and Pope.

Martin, you misunderstood me. I didn't indend to say that Hejduk was a top performer at the WC (he was solid: never bad, but also not outstanding). I said that his way of playing changed exactly like the way of playing of the US national team - and because of that he's symbolising US soccer's rise for me. Donovan or Mathis can't be such symbols as they didn't play WC level in the 90s.