Simak v. Donovan

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by olafgb


Martin, I said that I can understand him personally and was just arguing from the sportive side. And I think you can hardly discuss the fact away that early playing time on a top level is better than spending (maybe too) long on a lower level - also consider that he might need time to get accustomed in different aspects, this might be lost time. And once again, all of us can just evaluate the sportive side - the only one who can judge on the personal situation is Donovan himself.

Olaf, I recognized that you were accepting of his personal feelings and I did not mean to reopen that issue again. I was just saying that on the sportive side, I think Donovan's potential as a footballer may be maximized with a couple more years of San Jose play.

The reasons are as follows:

(1) I think actual play in MLS is not nearly as bad as you think it is.
(2) The additional responsibility for Landon in San Jose will counterbalance the loss of several years of more difficult responsibility.
(3) Landon is young with lots of time to take the bigger challenge.
(4) The risk of Leverkusen not using him in any meaningful way is too high based on that club's past attitude towards Donovan, which would be an absolute killer for Donovan's development.

Bottom line, and this is of course just opinion, is that a couple more years of stardom in MLS would increase Donovan's level of confidence to the point that he could risk not playing without that killing his development and he could find a better situation than Leverkusen.

[flanoverseas]

Originally posted by MarioKempes
LD can score some goals, but he is certainly not the best finisher. He is not a pure or natural striker by any means. He does not finish well under pressure. If you give him time, he will bury you, yes, but I expect this from any good player.

If LD was truly a great finisher, he would have beaten Kahn, he would have scored against Italy in Sicily, and he would have scored against Germany in Rostock.

This is no great criticism of LD. Only a handful of players in the world can be considered great strikers. The only great striker the US has had in recent times is Eric Wynalda. Of course Wynald's time passed around 1996. Mathis is coming along ok, but still not at Wynalda's level. McBride has his moments.

LD's speed of thought and play, his midfield creativity and intelligence, and his technical skills speak for themselves. but you can also recall some goals of his that were great finishes. The poland goal was solid.

I agree with you about the Italy and Germany opps, but I'm not ready to rule him out as a great finisher yet.

I've said it before, Donovan is a very hard player to find a position for. He's not really a forward and he's not really a midfielder. He's not really an AM or a winger like Figo. The one player he reminds me - reminds - of is Baggio who also throughout his career was a kind of enigma in terms of finding a place on the field. Up until recently his talent would get him on the field for anyone, but now has to play for a weaker club (while still dominating at times). When he went to MilanAC in '95, he was surrounded by great mids and forwards, got teamed with Weah a lot and basically bombed. A few years ago Real Madrid was among the teams interested but no one knew where to play him.

His best performance were the 94 and 98 World Cups (choking references aside) where he was allowed to roam the midfield, as well as at Brescia. You have to be an extremely creative player to play that position and rarely have any players successfully pulled it off (recently). Zidane, kind of but doesn't play as far forward.

My point is that this is where Donovan plays best-with complete freedom. He played that way in the U-17's and got the Golden Boot or whatever for the fourth place team. That was a while ago, but his versatility in the WC showed his ability to play anywhere and be everywhere. He has been a special player since forever on EVERY level. How will he be used is the question.

That turned into a longer post than I thought.

[maverick]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
I've said it before, Donovan is a very hard player to find a position for. He's not really a forward and he's not really a midfielder. He's not really an AM or a winger like Figo. The one player he reminds me - reminds - of is Baggio who also throughout his career was a kind of enigma in terms of finding a place on the field.

My point is that this is where Donovan plays best-with complete freedom. He played that way in the U-17's and got the Golden Boot or whatever for the fourth place team. That was a while ago, but his versatility in the WC showed his ability to play anywhere and be everywhere. He has been a special player since forever on EVERY level. How will he be used is the question.

Flan,

It was the Golden Ball for best player, not the Golden Boot for top scorer. (Interestingly, it was DaMarcus Beasley who won the Silver Ball at that same youth cup, the same DMB who absolutely terrorized Portugal before picking up a substantial knock that inhibited his play for the rest of the tournament. Without that, who knows... )

And, yes, Baggio is the best comparison that I keep coming back to again and again. Landon's talents would be wasted on the wing and aren't suited for striker. He's between a second forward and an attacking midfielder, but that's not a bad place to be when you have as much talent as he has. He WILL find a way onto the field, period.

Listen, I'm a big fan of the U.S. team, but I'm not delusional. Brian McBride is a poor man's Jancker, Joe Max-Moore is a joke, Josh Wolff is WAY too rough around the edges for even a mid-table premiership club, Razov couldn't score in a brothel without several whacks at the ball, and everyone else is either too old or too young to make a difference (except for Mathis, who has the fitness/dedication problem I describe below).

No-one, and I mean no-one, has fulfilled his promise like this kid already has in the USMNT program. He's the REAL DEAL. You don't win the Golden Ball at the U-17 World Cup, lead your team to a league championship and then lead your national team to a quarterfinal finish -- on the biggest stage of them all! -- without having cojones of steel. You think he still has something to prove, Olaf. I say he already has. And he's only 20. That makes Simak look like an old man.

Also, upon further reflection, I take it back: Landon isn't the best pure finisher on the USMNT -- it's Mathis, by a nose. But until he stops partying until morning in Manhattan nightclubs, he'll never reach his full potential... [sigh] :(

[Kaiser]

Originally posted by maverick


Landon is an amazing finisher; in fact, he's the best on the whole U.S. National Team. The only thing that kept him from scoring TWICE against Germany in the World Cup was Oliver Kahn and an awful offsides call in the opening minutes.

No I beg to differ the best finisher on the whole USMNT, EVER, is Clint Mathis.

On 2 of those Landon missed in the WC against Kahn it looked easier to make them than to miss. I think Landon was intimidated by Kahn and had the whammy put on him. I also think that Landon is a bit of a baby, he could be a starter in the Bundesliga, in a year or 2 but not right now. He doesn't seem to want to work for it, like most american 20 yr olds in general.

[flanoverseas]

Baggio's didn't really make waves until he was 22.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

(1) I think actual play in MLS is not nearly as bad as you think it is.


It's enough to know that the top 4 leagues are better. Every soccer player wants to play in one of these 4, so it doesn't matter where MLS is ranked behind (but for sure they are behind).


(2) The additional responsibility for Landon in San Jose will counterbalance the loss of several years of more difficult responsibility.


I think this is more a matter of hierarchy in a team. Of course he's responsible in San Jose, but when he enters one of the top 4 leagues, he's back at the bottom of the hierarchy - no matter what his position in San Jose was.


(3) Landon is young with lots of time to take the bigger challenge.


Sure, but the sooner he makes it, the more he can learn. With 26 or something like that you don't add further soccer skills (but certainly some other important skills which are helpful for soccer). This are some years for him, but he'd add more abilities by playing as many year on a higher level IMO.


(4) The risk of Leverkusen not using him in any meaningful way is too high based on that club's past attitude towards Donovan, which would be an absolute killer for Donovan's development.


The risk is of not getting a lot playing time is there, I can't deny that. But this has nothing to do with Bayer, this is the general risk of going to a top club. How does he ever want to be a successful player if he doesn't dare the jump? Due to the long contract it'll be Bayer for him in any case and no smaller club. I also don't see ONE season without much playing time as a big problem for his development. Permanent team training with top players also brings young players ahead (Frankie surely is much better despite lacking playing time than in the year he was coming to Leverkusen), on a longer term of course they have to play.


Bottom line, and this is of course just opinion, is that a couple more years of stardom in MLS would increase Donovan's level of confidence to the point that he could risk not playing without that killing his development and he could find a better situation than Leverkusen.

That's exactly what I'm doubting. Over the years he's losing his WC bonus as he fades in the people's memories and it impresses nobody in the team how superior he is in the MLS. And what's very important, is that currently a new team is being built in Leverkusen after Kirsten, Ballack and Ze Roberto don't play for them anymore. Next year no top player leaves and then it's very hard to find a spot in the team. They're talking about one or two years of further loan - one is a problem for Landon as I said in the previous sentence, and two would be too much for me if I was responsible in Leverkusen (would be a contract cut to three years, that's too much loss).


Maverick, believe me, on international level Landon still has to prove himself. He had 5 games on international competition level so far - the rest were junior level, international friendlies/qualifiers and MLS, nobody outside the USA will remember him in 2006 if he hasn't presented himself on top level until then.
Simak is 23 - yes, he could almost be Landon's grandpa :)

[flanoverseas]

since int'l friendlies and things like the gold cup aren't realy true comptetion, when will he even have a chance to prove himself besides the world cup?

"All he did was prove himself in 5 WC games."

Olaf, no offense but, Wow, that's all? He only proved himself on the biggest stage in the world.

He did get consistently better in qualifiers and friendlies, but they don't count. It sounds like you are holding against him what he hasn't had a chance to do. And you won't credit where he has succeeded

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by olafgb


It's enough to know that the top 4 leagues are better. Every soccer player wants to play in one of these 4, so it doesn't matter where MLS is ranked behind (but for sure they are behind).

Apples and oranges. My point was not about the attractiveness of the top four to players but the effect on development of playing in a league below the top 4. So in terms of how much development will be affected, how far MLS is behind the Bundesliga in terms of competition on the field is critical.

Originally posted by olafgb


I think this is more a matter of hierarchy in a team. Of course he's responsible in San Jose, but when he enters one of the top 4 leagues, he's back at the bottom of the hierarchy - no matter what his position in San Jose was.

Once again, it's not about his status when Donovan goes overseas. It's about the possibility that the level of responsibility he has at San Jose will help his development, compensating for, or partially compensating playing in a weaker league.

Originally posted by olafgb


Sure, but the sooner he makes it, the more he can learn. With 26 or something like that you don't add further soccer skills (but certainly some other important skills which are helpful for soccer). This are some years for him, but he'd add more abilities by playing as many year on a higher level IMO.

Well, I was thinking 22, not 26. As to terms of developing more by playing right away in the Bundesliga, that's an opinion. Mine is that the level of responsibility and the risk of not playing make staying in San Jose not so bad from a development standpoint.

Originally posted by olafgb


The risk is of not getting a lot playing time is there, I can't deny that. But this has nothing to do with Bayer, this is the general risk of going to a top club. How does he ever want to be a successful player if he doesn't dare the jump? Due to the long contract it'll be Bayer for him in any case and no smaller club. I also don't see ONE season without much playing time as a big problem for his development. Permanent team training with top players also brings young players ahead (Frankie surely is much better despite lacking playing time than in the year he was coming to Leverkusen), on a longer term of course they have to play.

Well, once again, my opinion is different. I think the risk with Bayer goes beyond the general risk because of Bayer's past disdain for his skills. And no, Hejduk is not better than when he went to Leverkusen. As for the length of the Leverkusen contract, even if Leverkusen can not be persuaded to sell of is not bought out, Donovan would still only be 25 when it is over.

Originally posted by olafgb


That's exactly what I'm doubting. Over the years he's losing his WC bonus as he fades in the people's memories and it impresses nobody in the team how superior he is in the MLS.

Comeone, Eddie Lewis was able to get a contract in England based soley on MLS play, but Donovan can't? That makes no sense.

Originally posted by olafgb


And what's very important, is that currently a new team is being built in Leverkusen after Kirsten, Ballack and Ze Roberto don't play for them anymore. Next year no top player leaves and then it's very hard to find a spot in the team. They're talking about one or two years of further loan - one is a problem for Landon as I said in the previous sentence, and two would be too much for me if I was responsible in Leverkusen (would be a contract cut to three years, that's too much loss).

Actually, that's probably not important at all, if Donovan does not want to go to Leverkusen, as has been stated. In fact, he probably hopes that does happen and Leverkusen loses interest so he can shop himself where he wants.

[appoo]

I don't know how much of a difference this would make but...it seems to me that many defenses in the MLS when the play the quakes are geared around making sure that Landon doesn't get the ball and if he does get the ball surround him with 3 players. I think its why you always see Graziani and Rosario in constant 1v1 situations. I can't totally prove this because the one time I have seen him in person was against Holland. Obviously they have no real reason to double him, and it'd be stupid while playing against our fullo national team. I have no idea how much freedom Simak is allowed in the BL. But donovan doesn't really get a whole lot of space to play with

[Ethel The Frog]

I don't think Donovan was being double teamed last weekend. I think Ivan McKinley was covering him man to man and spent his time pushing and shoving and being bigger and unpleasant. It was not a pretty game.

I think it would be crazy to double team Simak. Leverkusen has too many people on the field who can score to allow for much double teaming. Especially if you are running a 4-3-3 and are outnumbered by Leverkusen's attacking players in the midfield to begin with.

My sense of the Dortmund defense is that the center of the field is jammed packed on a zonal defense system. Dortmund leaves the wings open which is why a goal came when the ball rebounded out to Placente -- there was no right wing midfielder to cover Placente when the original attack came from the right hand side. The dortmund right wing back was probably covering Basturk.

Donovan might do well with Everthon's spot in the Dortmund lineup. ...

[MarioKempes]

Originally posted by flanoverseas
but you can also recall some goals of his that were great finishes. The poland goal was solid.

I agree with you about the Italy and Germany opps, but I'm not ready to rule him out as a great finisher yet.



I don't speculate that he will not become a great finisher, just that he is not one now. As I said, he can score great goals if given time on the ball, but he is not Van Nistlerooy or Raul or Elber.

We also agree that he is not that type of player anyways, as he is more of a creative midfielder ala Roberto Baggio.

[The Wanderer]

He never started playing midfield until he moved up the levels here in the U.S.

Baggio was a half forward/half middie. Donovan is along those same lines. He'll never run the show from deep in the midfield like Zidane does. Right wing is a waste because he's a weak defender. The best position for Donovan is in the hole in a 3-5-2 or 4-3-3.

There's no way he'd unseat Basturk, Simak I'm not so sure about since I haven't seen him too much.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
[B]
Apples and oranges. My point was not about the attractiveness of the top four to players but the effect on development of playing in a league below the top 4.

For young players playing time is important and because of that going back to MLS was right. At the moment you might be competitive in a stronger league further years in a smaller league are a waste of time, also regarding the development.


Well, I was thinking 22, not 26. As to terms of developing more by playing right away in the Bundesliga, that's an opinion.


I got that already before. The point is: with 22 he's having two years less to learn on high level than he could do now.


I think the risk with Bayer goes beyond the general risk because of Bayer's past disdain for his skills. And no, Hejduk is not better than when he went to Leverkusen. As for the length of the Leverkusen contract, even if Leverkusen can not be persuaded to sell of is not bought out, Donovan would still only be 25 when it is over.

Forget about Bayer's alleged disdain for his skills, that's subjective talk of which I'm sure it won't stand an objective research.

Hejduk definitely is better now; I saw him in the first games for Bayer when he had no tactical and rarely any technical skills - he improved his technical skills (though of course he'll never be an elegant player) and mainly his tactical skills a lot. Latter one could nicely be seen at the WC.



Comeone, Eddie Lewis was able to get a contract in England based soley on MLS play, but Donovan can't? That makes no sense.


I was talking about regular playing time, not getting a contract.


Actually, that's probably not important at all, if Donovan does not want to go to Leverkusen, as has been stated. In fact, he probably hopes that does happen and Leverkusen loses interest so he can shop himself where he wants.

Good luck to him if he relies on that, but we're in pro soccer and the probability is close to 0.

@flanoverseas: Friendlies are never competition. Gold Cup can be, depending on the opponents - for a country like the USA everything besides Mexico (and maybe Costa Rica on good days) basically is a must-win.
What I'm calling top level performances are WC and top 4 league games plus Champions League. 5 games on that level definitely are not much. Be sure that someone who's having 200 league games plus 30 Champions League games will rather be remembered than someone with 5 WC appearanes. The South Korean team had 7 WC games - I could tell you exactly 3 names of their team today.

[maverick]

How absolutely fascinating (Is he reading this thread?!? ;) ):

"Q. If you could be a teammate of any all-time soccer great, which one?

A. I always idolized Roberto Baggio of Italy. I'd love to have played with him. We're similar in that he's extremely dangerous in front of the goal. But he's also a deadly passer, has great vision, plays the game well. He's got everything."

From a really, really good article from Wednesday, August 21, 2002:

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82%257E10835%257E810823,00.html

Anyone who wants to argue that this kid isn't well grounded and humble, go read this and ponder things for a while... Sounds as though he's got all of his priorities straight.

[olafgb]

Originally posted by maverick

From a really, really good article from Wednesday, August 21, 2002:

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82%257E10835%257E810823,00.html



Nice read (Maverick, tell me where I have to sign a contract in Frankfurt to get that much Internet time to post on this board and read all US newspapers ;)) - though Baggio? He once was good, but that's some time ago and it definitely was too short.

[Treetaliano]

Originally posted by maverick
How absolutely fascinating (Is he reading this thread?!? ;) ):

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82%257E10835%257E810823,00.html

Anyone who wants to argue that this kid isn't well grounded and humble, go read this and ponder things for a while... Sounds as though he's got all of his priorities straight.

Q. In your next life, after soccer, what will you be doing?

A. Laying on the beach in a lounge chair, drinking Coronas. When that commercial comes on, I go "ahhhh."

Good on ya Landon. Kid can't even buy a beer yet in the US. Must have picked that up in Germany ;)

[dcc134]

From the article

"Q. How has your ego stayed in check with all this publicity?"

I guess this question assumes his ego has stayed in check?

[maverick]

Originally posted by olafgb
Nice read (Maverick, tell me where I have to sign a contract in Frankfurt to get that much Internet time to post on this board and read all US newspapers ;)) - though Baggio? He once was good, but that's some time ago and it definitely was too short.

U.S.-based capital markets work is quite quiet right now, and every investment banker in Europe is on vacation the last two weeks of August. Besides, can't you tell I'm stalking you regarding Donovan? ;)

I thought Baggio was a brilliant player, albeit with a relatively short shelf-life (injury after injury!). Then again, why should that matter: so was Marco Van Basten, who many consider to be the greatest striker of all time -- and whose career was cruelly cut short through repeated crushing tackles from behind. I believe his injuries were in part the impetus for the "automatic" red card for a vicious tackle from behind...

[olafgb]

Originally posted by Treetaliano


Q. In your next life, after soccer, what will you be doing?

A. Laying on the beach in a lounge chair, drinking Coronas. When that commercial comes on, I go "ahhhh."

Good on ya Landon. Kid can't even buy a beer yet in the US. Must have picked that up in Germany

:D No, then he'd want to be sailing around the world with the Beck's sailboat.

Maverick, I'm very relieved. For some days I was thinking that I'd have to move to Frankfurt some day ;). I prefer sticking to collision of laws - regarding Donovan I won't do you the pleasure.

[Martin Fischer]

Well we have different opinions. So be it. Two things, though.

Originally posted by olafgb


Hejduk definitely is better now; I saw him in the first games for Bayer when he had no tactical and rarely any technical skills - he improved his technical skills (though of course he'll never be an elegant player) and mainly his tactical skills a lot. Latter one could nicely be seen at the WC.


Uhm, I don't know how far back your interest in Hejduk goes, but Hejduk got a contract with Bayer because he played well in World Cup 98. He was at least as good in World Cup 98, if not better, than he was in World Cup 2002. And, furthermore, Bayer won 10 of the 11 games Hejduk started in his first season at Leverkusen with him playing as a wing forward opposite Ze Roberto. Hejduk never was that effective again for Leverkusen.


Originally posted by olafgb


Good luck to him if he relies on that, but we're in pro soccer and the probability is close to 0.



I will say the probability is a lot higher than 0 that Donovan will never play for Leverkusen but be a sucess for another team in a Big 4 league. In fact, it is probable, though not overwhelminly so since there is a significant chance Donovan and Leverkusen will work it out and Donovan will play for Leverkusen.