Villareal C.F. vs. Manchester United F.C. - Champs League - 25/11/08 [R]

[Invincible]

Amazing, how if you give a fullback the ball in tight spaces with markers near him he will fail to dance past them and set up a goal. Amazing. Both O'Shea and Evra were asked to do too much because Ronaldo and Nani were ineffective. Rooney was poor, Ronaldo and Nani were misused/poor and without an effective threat breaking forward from the midfield, we lacked the sheer numbers to sustain pressure through the heart of their team. Instead of having 5 and 6 guys attacking at will we had Rooney, Ronaldo/Nani and whichever fullback the ball was nearest.

No, I don't expect them to dance past defenders and set up a goal all the time, but I do expect them to play a decent ball into the box without hitting the first defender, running the ball out of play, passing the ball out of play, passing straight to an opposition player or tripping over themselves.

Evra makes all those good runs then 99% of the time does sweet FA with it. O'Shea makes a decent run or two but then does nothing as well. Then the opposition counters. Think of how much energy our attackers waste every game busting a gut to get into attacking positions only for one of those two to lose their marbles. It's starting to get a bit annoying.

[Ruud v.Nistelrooy 10]

i'm just really wondering if any of our young stars will get the chance to develop properly

i am still not sure what the plan is for Anderson
Rooney well who can say how much his sacrifices are affecting his form now or his staggered development
Tévez too
seems like only Ronaldo got his time to properly develop. people say SAF did wonders with him and moulded him into what he is now but i always wonder what about the rest???

atm none seem to be performing anywhere near what they can. and whats bad is they are the ones we depend on right now with the injuries etc

[Dark Savante]

I'll tell you what's tiresome: the O'Shea defenders!

:)

This guy has some kind of free pass that exonerates him from being crap, it ensures he never improves or develops and that he is excused for it where no-one else in the squad is.

Everyone else gets criticsm for the areas of their game they lack in, and I'd defy anyone to say otherwise, but when it comes to O'Shea..it's suddenly okay for him to be this black hole of technique, an almost cult figure for his past actions against a few sides.

I don't particularly care for 'O'Shea bashing' I don't have a body of posts slamming the player, but for damn sure, I'll point out the woes and ills I see in him when they make themselves as apparent as they did yesterday.

There is no excuse for a United player to constantly show himself to have such a poor level of technique and if anyone tells me otherwise, they are lying.

This '3rd or 4th' choice business is also a fallacy. It doesn't matter what choice he is; when he gets on the pitch he should not look so out of place with the rest and that's got nothing at all to do with tactical or managerial decisions and purely down to him and his technique.

I'm more particular with O'Shea because I simply do not believe you can start your career like he did and end it like you've been lobotomised. He, like everyone else, should be working hard to improve his game and magically enough: he'd not be pointed out for the black hole he currently is.

If he were a youngster coming through displaying what he does, not one person on here would say he has a chance of making it. You can almost be sure that the next manager after Fergie, if he were to cull surplus or players he doesn't feel would make his grade, will boot O'shea out on his ear.

He has to improve, simple as that. There's no excuse whatsoever to be so poor with your technique if you've shown in the past you do have something about you.

[Dark Savante]

I also think, as a matter of course, Carrick has been almost grossly overrated since his return.

An ironic counter-balance to the underrated player he once was.

His common sense and ball retention awareness has been poor and it has put us on the back foor when he fails to complete the ambitious pass a number of times where it needn't have been even a concern in the first place if he'd bide his time a little to put in an even better ball that doesn't have almost our entire team out of position should he mess up.

----

I'm getting more irritable as Derby time nears. Grr.

[israbeckham]

Anderson will score his first goal in the Derby this weekend.
You herd it here first.:cool:

[SyedZada]

We played for the win, not a draw.

that's why we got the draw.
If thats playing for win , then bye bye any trophy chance we have.

[littleman]

Goddamn.. where did all these new plastic babies come from.

[Motterman]

"I think he's been watching (Villarreal forward) Robert Pires too much. At least he apologised to their players. You'd never see Pires do that." - SAF

Quality. :D

[Father Ted]

"I think he's been watching (Villarreal forward) Robert Pires too much. At least he apologised to their players. You'd never see Pires do that." - SAF

Quality. :D

Nice one, getting a veiled dig in at Arse at the same time.

[Father Ted]

I'll tell you what's tiresome: the O'Shea defenders!

:)

This guy has some kind of free pass that exonerates him from being crap, it ensures he never improves or develops and that he is excused for it where no-one else in the squad is.



We all know that O'Shea has poor technique. He is not the first choice at anything. He doesn't do a good job going forward or passing but he is a smart player defensively. Does Sir Alex put him in to run up and down the line and whip in pin point crosses onto Rooney's head? No. He is a defensive stopgap, told his number 1 job is to watch Ashley Young, Pires, whoever.

My main point is that he is not the reason why we haven't scored in the last two games. We have bigger problems in this team than John O'Shea's poor technique. Namely midfield and Rooney/Tevez.

[Drae]

I'm more particular with O'Shea because I simply do not believe you can start your career like he did and end it like you've been lobotomised. He, like everyone else, should be working hard to improve his game and magically enough: he'd not be pointed out for the black hole he currently is.

If he were a youngster coming through displaying what he does, not one person on here would say he has a chance of making it. You can almost be sure that the next manager after Fergie, if he were to cull surplus or players he doesn't feel would make his grade, will boot O'shea out on his ear.

He has to improve, simple as that. There's no excuse whatsoever to be so poor with your technique if you've shown in the past you do have something about you.

I thought the point of Oshea is that is he isnt going to make it, and wont improve. We dont pay him to get better, or to play well. We pay him to be a squaddie.

I agree with you that he runs about the place with technical ability well below that of anyone else on the pitch, and that is not optimal. But it is equally true that he hardly ever plays, and yet _always_ has a smile on his face. Which is probably why I dont mind him being the way he is :)

He probably is capable of being better, but the fact is that he doesnt get better. Again, thats what makes him who and what he is, and why we have him.

Not everyone has the will to succeed. To continually push themselves to improve and to be the best they can. As long as Oshae is loyal, doesn't complain or ask for too much, and is happy enough knocking around the place and filling the odd gap, then I say fair enough.

The alternative is to offload players like Oshae (most of whom we do anyway), but then that means that gaps need to be covered by youth that is too young, or "experience" that is too old. We can hardly expect to have players like Solskjaer all the time. It is a team game, and sometimes you need team players, often ones who arent perfect. Oshae is definitely a team player for us.

[Vermont Red]

If he were a youngster coming through displaying what he does, not one person on here would say he has a chance of making it.

What does Phil Bardsley have to do with anything?

[johno]

I also think, as a matter of course, Carrick has been almost grossly overrated since his return.

An ironic counter-balance to the underrated player he once was.

His common sense and ball retention awareness has been poor and it has put us on the back foor when he fails to complete the ambitious pass a number of times where it needn't have been even a concern in the first place if he'd bide his time a little to put in an even better ball that doesn't have almost our entire team out of position should he mess up.

----

I'm getting more irritable as Derby time nears. Grr.

Definitely poor in the first 30 mins of the last 2 games. However those of you who think he's been poor in every aspect since his return are ignoring his defensive work. He was immense against Villareal and also against Villa. He makes tackles, interceptions, clogs lanes and wins headers deep in our box that CBs should be winning. He's been in better form defensively than our defenders. The passing though has not been up to his excellent.

I'll tell you what's tiresome: the O'Shea defenders!

:)

This guy has some kind of free pass that exonerates him from being crap, it ensures he never improves or develops and that he is excused for it where no-one else in the squad is.

Everyone else gets criticsm for the areas of their game they lack in, and I'd defy anyone to say otherwise, but when it comes to O'Shea..it's suddenly okay for him to be this black hole of technique, an almost cult figure for his past actions against a few sides.

I don't particularly care for 'O'Shea bashing' I don't have a body of posts slamming the player, but for damn sure, I'll point out the woes and ills I see in him when they make themselves as apparent as they did yesterday.

There is no excuse for a United player to constantly show himself to have such a poor level of technique and if anyone tells me otherwise, they are lying.

This '3rd or 4th' choice business is also a fallacy. It doesn't matter what choice he is; when he gets on the pitch he should not look so out of place with the rest and that's got nothing at all to do with tactical or managerial decisions and purely down to him and his technique.

I'm more particular with O'Shea because I simply do not believe you can start your career like he did and end it like you've been lobotomised. He, like everyone else, should be working hard to improve his game and magically enough: he'd not be pointed out for the black hole he currently is.

If he were a youngster coming through displaying what he does, not one person on here would say he has a chance of making it. You can almost be sure that the next manager after Fergie, if he were to cull surplus or players he doesn't feel would make his grade, will boot O'shea out on his ear.

He has to improve, simple as that. There's no excuse whatsoever to be so poor with your technique if you've shown in the past you do have something about you.

I honestly think your problem is high expectations. I expect or rather hope that he doesn't fcuk up defensively, however anything he does in attack is a bonus. I've lost faith in him and I don't expect anything but mediocre from him so I'm not disappointed when I see that. You are insane if you see 1 thing over and over and expect a different result each time. Give, it, up.

I probably give him less credit for scoring his goals, important and splediferous as they were, than most. I see them as flukes and or parts of his game that are decent, they don't elevate my expectation of him. I've wanted to choke Fergie for starting him in CM in the past, but I'm not surprised with his play at FB, nor am I terribly disappointed.

[benni...]

I honestly think your problem is high expectations.

We support Manchester United after all.

[jeff070]

We have not been playing well this season, and last night's game was the proof. WE have not clicked, we are nto working hard enough, and some players do nto have enough quality to be united players.

First, last night's game was frustrating. Players that disappointed me are rooney, adnerson, carrick, nani, and O'shea. I believe that O'shea should be sold, he is a manchester united through adn through and puts a 100% every game he plays but he just lacks the quality of a manchester united player. Secondly, Rooney has been on and off since I can't even remember. He scores for a few games and doesn't for the next ten. When he does not score it is not because of lack of opportunities it is because of lack of mentality as a striker. Against villareal he was shite in my opinion. I do not care if playing up top is his position or not, but basic stuff as slotting the ball home, holding it, trapping towards teammate was lacking (I am not talking about exceptions). Nani is the most inconsistent player at manchester united by far. sometimes he shows up sometimes he does not , and sometimes he tries too much to be like ronaldo. Anderson's performance yesterday was below par in my opinion, he is too big for 20 year old which effects his touch and technique on the ball. Carrick plays like he does care what the ******** happens during the game, and he showed that last night too.

On a positive note, we are through the knockout stages, and we can put some youngsters against aalborg. johnny evans was a bright spot for united as is gibson. ronaldo like always does his best offensively and always produces something under any conditions. Fletcher was my man of the match for this one.

[Father Ted]

FYI We've conceeded only 1 goal in 5 CL games this season and I wouldn't bet on Aalborg scoring in the last group game.

[SirManchester]

We all know that O'Shea has poor technique. He is not the first choice at anything. He doesn't do a good job going forward or passing but he is a smart player defensively. Does Sir Alex put him in to run up and down the line and whip in pin point crosses onto Rooney's head? No. He is a defensive stopgap, told his number 1 job is to watch Ashley Young, Pires, whoever.

My main point is that he is not the reason why we haven't scored in the last two games. We have bigger problems in this team than John O'Shea's poor technique. Namely midfield and Rooney/Tevez.

That's not an excuse in my opinion, that as long as he does what he does and doesn't complain it's alright. This is Manchester United and we've won titles on the basis of high expectations and important players improving constantly, the same goes for every from the first team to stop gaps to versatile players, to youngsters, etc. It's a non-point whether he scored against certain sides.

I also don't buy the bold part. He's got experience going for him and he has learned to use his body but he's far from a smart defender. It's been pointed out but even players around him find it uneasy to pass back to him and his passing out of tight spaces leave a bit to be desired. Now I have nothing personal against him but lines need to be drawn, and while he's not a direct reason why we're doing bad at the moment, he's one of the variables holding the team back from peaking. When he takes on the RB role we can NEVER get what we fully want out of the role and automatically one of the attacking aspects disappears. Take Fletcher for example, he's been on the outskirts, maybe even more than O'Shea but he's shown fantastic grit and he's improved with every season. That's the attitude and player we should acknowledge.

Also we do have the best defense in the Champions League so far with only one conceded, albeit we do have an easy group. Bayern has conceded only two and a few others like Inter, Chelsea, and Juve with three.

[CarlitosWay]

The United offense definitely does not benefit from O'Shea. With Brown in there, it hums along like a well greased machine, with O'Shea, well, the passes avoid him at all costs.

But he, like Fletcher, does not complain about a lack of playing time and comes in and gives an honest effort. He has defended well and against Villareal he actually had a nice slide rule pass, but of course nobody made the run.

All in all a cleansheet away from home in teh CL is a good result. I posted a recap a bit harsh of some players, but hey, Red Devils fans should have high expectations

http://blog.futfanatico.com/2008/11/25/a-siesta-at-high-noon-manchester-united-v-villareal.aspx

[Amdrag]

I thought the point of Oshea is that is he isnt going to make it, and wont improve. We dont pay him to get better, or to play well. We pay him to be a squaddie.

I agree with you that he runs about the place with technical ability well below that of anyone else on the pitch, and that is not optimal. But it is equally true that he hardly ever plays, and yet _always_ has a smile on his face. Which is probably why I dont mind him being the way he is :)

He probably is capable of being better, but the fact is that he doesnt get better. Again, thats what makes him who and what he is, and why we have him.

Not everyone has the will to succeed. To continually push themselves to improve and to be the best they can. As long as Oshae is loyal, doesn't complain or ask for too much, and is happy enough knocking around the place and filling the odd gap, then I say fair enough.

The alternative is to offload players like Oshae (most of whom we do anyway), but then that means that gaps need to be covered by youth that is too young, or "experience" that is too old. We can hardly expect to have players like Solskjaer all the time. It is a team game, and sometimes you need team players, often ones who arent perfect. Oshae is definitely a team player for us.

See Brown for how wrong you are.

[Harry Boulton]

My word, you know what this discussion reminds me of? Two old men sat in a pub and, regardless of how well the economy is doing, regardless of how nice their house is, regardless of how many nice things they have in it, regardless of whether unemployment is down to a record low, always complain that's it's not as good as it should be or as good as it used to be.

Some people are never happy - they want perfection across the squad.


Here we have John O'Shea, a squad player, a jack-of-all-trades, who has put in years of patient service in every position on the pitch, who has never caused upset, who has never spoken out, who has never criticised the fans, who has always been available when called upon, having his ability questioned and value called into account because he doesn't play like Cafu, defend like Maldini and show the technical accomplishment of Kaka?

Most clubs in the EPL would kill for a player like O'Shea. He'd walk into almost any side outside of the top 4 or 5 with a handful of exceptions and we have the privelidge of using him from the bench - as a squad player. And still we're not happy? So he's not as good as Brown? What do you want? Us to clone Brown so we never miss anyone?

Get a grip people. The lad aint Pele I know, but he does you a job. So he gets exposed from time to time? So he has his flaws? So, at rhe age of 27, people act surprised that he's not showing any great deal of improvement?

Sometimes, I wonder what it would take. You really can't keep all of the people happy, all of the time.................