the NFL style kickoff

[o5iiawah]

So our U-11BG League director asked me before the kickoff of the league final for a change in a rule. Since the coaches dont like to teach the kids proper starts and restarts the kids dont learn and they fall into bad habits.

Rather than teach the kids how to properly kick off, a lot of them just run forwards and punt the ball as hard as they can upfield at the other team, surrendering possession. I told coaches that this wont be tolerated anymore and that even though it is legal, it is at the request of the director that it not happen.

Sure enough, start of the 2nd half, greens ball, green coach (who was still sour over a call I made against his team 2 weeks prior) sends his kids out who all back 10 yards off the ball and act like they are going to run forward. I ask the kids to come forward and play the ball properly.

Nevertheles, coach blows up, I run over to him and ask if he has an assistant, all that good stuff.

Was that an unreasonable request from the league director and would you expect that the rules be changed in the last game? ( game was a 1-1 with Green conceding an own-goal in the last minute :D)

[njref]

Personally, I think changing the rules for the last game is pretty lame, especially under these circumstances.

This is obviously a low level recreation type league if the players do not know how to kick off by the end of their U-11 fall season. Maybe they are having fun with their NFL kick-off, maybe at that level it is even good strategy. So what. If this is the biggest problem the league has, count yourselves as lucky.

Also, I don't think you can assume a team is using an NFL downfield kick just because they line up 10 yards from the midline to start. Maybe they will try to kick it 20 yards upfield to the wing and let a player with a running start run unto the ball. I have seen travel teams use that tactic on occasion, which is perfectly legal and legitimate soccer.

[snolly g]

So our U-11BG League director asked me before the kickoff of the league final for a change in a rule. Since the coaches dont like to teach the kids proper starts and restarts the kids dont learn and they fall into bad habits.

Rather than teach the kids how to properly kick off, a lot of them just run forwards and punt the ball as hard as they can upfield at the other team, surrendering possession. I told coaches that this wont be tolerated anymore and that even though it is legal, it is at the request of the director that it not happen.

Sure enough, start of the 2nd half, greens ball, green coach (who was still sour over a call I made against his team 2 weeks prior) sends his kids out who all back 10 yards off the ball and act like they are going to run forward. I ask the kids to come forward and play the ball properly.

Nevertheles, coach blows up, I run over to him and ask if he has an assistant, all that good stuff.

Was that an unreasonable request from the league director and would you expect that the rules be changed in the last game? ( game was a 1-1 with Green conceding an own-goal in the last minute :D)

wellllllll...

i know why coaches at lower levels tell their kids to boot the ball downfield. they do it simply to advance the ball. (two reasons: 1. the hope is that they will recover possession when other team mishandles the ball. 2. the fear is that they will lose possession in their own half.)

it's bad coaching, BUT the question is: should we really be tweaking the rules to remedy bad coaching? i don't think so.

[NHRef]

It may have its merits, though I'd never coach it, I like possession. However NHL hockey calls it dump and chase. They always just dump the puck in, then go chase it hoping to get it back.

I've seen it work, but not against a skilled team.

[andymoss]

"....ball must go forward...."

I see that as the beginning and end of my responsibility on a kick-off.

I've seen plenty of goals scored directly from a kick-off where the GK was not paying attention. There's a great example on YouTube of the keeper in the Bundesleige who had just scored on a corner and was too busy celebrating on the way back to his goal to notice the other team hustle back up and take the kick off. He could only watch as the ball sailed over his head into the goal.

Even his own team mates were laughing at him!

[refontherun]

So our U-11BG League director asked me before the kickoff of the league final for a change in a rule. Since the coaches dont like to teach the kids proper starts and restarts the kids dont learn and they fall into bad habits.

Rather than teach the kids how to properly kick off, a lot of them just run forwards and punt the ball as hard as they can upfield at the other team, surrendering possession. I told coaches that this wont be tolerated anymore and that even though it is legal, it is at the request of the director that it not happen.

Was that an unreasonable request from the league director and would you expect that the rules be changed in the last game?

If it is just a local league that don't participate in other competitions, I don't see the harm in allowing them to continue to "kick and chase". Once they go to an outisde competition and the kids see there is a better way to do it, they will start asking questions.

As to whether it is a reasonable request. I probably would have told him that I can't keep them from doing something that is not illegal (double negative). As long as the ball is kicked and moves forward, it's a legal kick-off. As was stated earlier, as long as the kids are having fun.........

[ctreferee]

As referees we are bound to the rules of competition, we follow the league rules(as in this case stated by the director). If we feel uncomfortable following these rules don't work the game.

With that said i dont have any problem enforcing a rule like that in a rec league and am frankly much more troubled by a u11 rec coach "blowing up" and holding a grudge from 2 weeks prior. In a game such as that I probably would even be asking him if had an assistant, he would be in the parking lot well before that.

[DadOf6]

I would simply point out that he is changing the rules before the last game of the season and that the IFAB allows certain law changes, but that isn't one of them.

However, he is the boss and I will gladly call over the coaches so he can explain it to them.

[NOTE: Seeing how so many coaches are eager to tell us how to ref our games, I suppose it is only fair that the ref be allowed to coach from the field :rolleyes:]

[Pierre Head]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.
There are two fundamental principles when playing
this game: ball possession and territorial advantage.

If the ball is in the other half, you are not likely to be scored
on, and you have more probability of scoring if the ball stays near the
opponent's goal. In little kids games, ball possession changes very frequently
and is not as important as in games at higher levels. They will
learn other tactics as they get olde, develop better skills and receive better coaching

A downfield kick-off is a very sound strategy at this level, and should not
be prohibited. And of course it is not against TLOG, therefore no
referee should prevent it, and should not comply with such
ridiculous directives from ill-informed league directors.

PH

[Gary V]

If a league director has the power to change rules on his own, just prior to the last match of the season, I think I'd decline to accept any more assignments in that league. There would be nothing to stop him from coming to you at a game and say, "Sorry, your call is incorrect. I changed the rule two minutes ago." Maybe the next thing he'll change is the ref fee schedule. "Coach is a little short today; you only get $7 for the game."

League rules have to be distributed in advance and any changes made through proper channels. They also should conform to the modifications allowed by FIFA. (And if they don't, the referee should be able to know that in advance to make a choice to hold his nose and do the game despite the stink, or again to decline games.)

Not to mention that the players should get a practice session or two to figure out a new strategy.

[whistleblowerusa]

So our U-11BG League director asked me before the kickoff of the league final for a change in a rule. Since the coaches dont like to teach the kids proper starts and restarts the kids dont learn and they fall into bad habits.

Rather than teach the kids how to properly kick off, a lot of them just run forwards and punt the ball as hard as they can upfield at the other team, surrendering possession. I told coaches that this wont be tolerated anymore and that even though it is legal, it is at the request of the director that it not happen.

Sure enough, start of the 2nd half, greens ball, green coach (who was still sour over a call I made against his team 2 weeks prior) sends his kids out who all back 10 yards off the ball and act like they are going to run forward. I ask the kids to come forward and play the ball properly.

Nevertheles, coach blows up, I run over to him and ask if he has an assistant, all that good stuff.

Was that an unreasonable request from the league director and would you expect that the rules be changed in the last game? ( game was a 1-1 with Green conceding an own-goal in the last minute :D)
If both teams were in their own half, the defending team at least ten yards from the ball and the ball was kicked and moved forward after a signal by the Referee there is nothing wrong with how they lined up to perfrom thye kick off no matter what the league says.
Why start something with the coach???

[o5iiawah]

I don't see what all the fuss is about.
There are two fundamental principles when playing
this game: ball possession and territorial advantage.

If the ball is in the other half, you are not likely to be scored
on, and you have more probability of scoring if the ball stays near the
opponent's goal. In little kids games, ball possession changes very frequently
and is not as important as in games at higher levels. They will
learn other tactics as they get olde, develop better skills and receive better coaching

A downfield kick-off is a very sound strategy at this level, and should not
be prohibited. And of course it is not against TLOG, therefore no
referee should prevent it, and should not comply with such
ridiculous directives from ill-informed league directors.

PH

My league director showed me pictures of him reffing central and south american league games at the Orlando citrus bowl back in the 80s. He's not someone I would consider "out of touch"

From a coaching standpoint, I'd rather teach my kids how to actually pass the ball square and wide from a kickoff rather than punt, chase and hope the defense mis-handles it

[o5iiawah]

If both teams were in their own half, the defending team at least ten yards from the ball and the ball was kicked and moved forward after a signal by the Referee there is nothing wrong with how they lined up to perfrom thye kick off no matter what the league says.
Why start something with the coach???

Because league rules are league rules, and i never "started something" with the coach. Regardless of what happens on the field, all players, spectators and coaches are to respect the decisions of the referee. I already told both coaches before the game that if they had an issue, they should take it up with the league director.

We have all reffed in situations where league rules are different than FIFA or USSF rules. As long as the coaches are notified beforehand and agree to the rules, its play-on. A coach should never go out of his way to tell his 11 year old players to disobey the referee. That kind of stuff has no part in the game.

[Rufusabc]

I think a couple of responses up the board hits it perfectly. If all conditions are met and there is no infraction by either team at the time the ball is contacted then what exactly are we arguing about on THIS forum? I have seen some stupid coaching ploys (as many of you have also), and I could care less if they don't infringe the rules. An NFL style kickoff with all 10 outfield players charging down the field might actually BE something, especially if the other team gets possession and scores.

[Rufusabc]

I have seen posts on boards where refs wonder if they shoud card a player for PI for having too many offside infractions against them in a game....who cares what the two teams do tactically as long as the rules are adhered too.

[whistleblowerusa]

Because league rules are league rules, and i never "started something" with the coach. Regardless of what happens on the field, all players, spectators and coaches are to respect the decisions of the referee. I already told both coaches before the game that if they had an issue, they should take it up with the league director.

We have all reffed in situations where league rules are different than FIFA or USSF rules. As long as the coaches are notified beforehand and agree to the rules, its play-on. A coach should never go out of his way to tell his 11 year old players to disobey the referee. That kind of stuff has no part in the game.
What exactly are the league rules? No backing up to take a kick off? And you did start something with the coach by doing something stupid like tell his players where they must be for a kick off.

[Pierre Head]

My league director showed me pictures of him reffing central and south american league games at the Orlando citrus bowl back in the 80s. He's not someone I would consider "out of touch"


What kind of Central and South American League games were played
at the Orlando Citrus Bowl? Who were the teams? I bet they were just non-league friendlies, not actual League games, which would have been played in their own countries.
Was he a US National or FIFA or imported from elsewhere?

I didn't say out-of touch, I said ill-informed. And if he was a ref at
such high level matches he should have known better, and therefore
perhaps a better term would have been "well-meaning but still wrong"!

PH

[Pierre Head]

So our U-11BG League director asked me before the kickoff of the league final for a change in a rule.

Was that an unreasonable request from the league director and would you expect that the rules be changed in the last game? ( game was a 1-1 with Green conceding an own-goal in the last minute

This was your initial question, and I think you have received several
replies, most telling you that it was indeed an unreasonable request,
for many reasons.

Now you seem to be trying to defend him and the request, and justifying your action with this coach, which I agree was inappropriate in this case, just
as Whistleblower said.

PH

[refereejoe]

o5iiawah, you have the power of FIFA, USSF, and the LOTG at your disposal when you step into the middle as a certified official on a sanctioned match. My only advice to you is to know exactly what is clearly documented in the laws, the by-laws of the league, and allowed modifications by USSF. Anybody who asks you to do anything different beyond that and you have absolutely zero responsibility to listen to them (nor should you).

The league director had no authority to make the request that he did, and you shouldn't fear any repercussions had you denied him.

[o5iiawah]

What exactly are the league rules? No backing up to take a kick off? And you did start something with the coach by doing something stupid like tell his players where they must be for a kick off.

Read the first post. League director comes to me before the last game and says he doesn't want to see the boot-n-chase kickoffs and to tell the coaches. He also said there would be co-champs if the game was a draw (No added time, KFTPM etc)

If "doing something stupid" is telling the coaches before the kickoff that the league director doesn't want to see boot-n-chase kickoffs then yes, I did something stupid.

Next time, the rules of competition dont matter...

What kind of Central and South American League games were played
at the Orlando Citrus Bowl? Who were the teams? I bet they were just non-league friendlies, not actual League games, which would have been played in their own countries.
Was he a US National or FIFA or imported from elsewhere?

I didn't say out-of touch, I said ill-informed. And if he was a ref at
such high level matches he should have known better, and therefore
perhaps a better term would have been "well-meaning but still wrong"!

There's concacaf champions league games that take place at the citrus bowl pretty often. I dont know his 100% bio, or much about Central American soccer in the 1980s but the citrus bowl is frequently used for footy. I would guess he was a national ref that just wants to see kids learn the game properly in his retirement. There are some kids in the league that do have a good amount of skill and im guessing he doesn't want coaches teaching them gimmicks.

Its his league and my checks come from his hand. If he decides that he wants to play with no offside, 5-goal mercy rule, goalscorer has to sub off, rules than so be it. Many leagues have rules that differ slightly from the LOTG. As long as both coaches are notified before the match and they shake and agree then there shouldn't be a problem.

Now you seem to be trying to defend him and the request, and justifying your action with this coach, which I agree was inappropriate in this case, just
as Whistleblower said.

my first question was, "was the request unreasonable" and there's been a few yes' and no's but I dont really see how I was an "idiot" by having to re-explain to a coach a rule of competition who was on the halfway line yelling at me in the center circle. I took both coaches aside before the match and both had no questions and agreed to the rules. Deliberately telling your kids to do otherwise is unsporting. If he disagreed with the rule than fine..he could have taken it up before the match, not screaming his mouth off from the techical area just after halftime.

hopefully this settles the thread.