Switching sides on a GK after spotting the ball?

[leviathan]

I have a question about something I saw in a U10 youth game recently. On a goal kick, the taker spotted the ball on the left side of the goal area, backed up as if to take the kick, then ran to the ball, picked it up, carried it to the right side of the goal area, put it down (properly, inside the area), and kicked it out of the penalty area. This happened a number of times in the game. This was in a 6v6 game, that is, 5 field players and a goalie for each team. It was an effective tactic for moving the ball out on goal kicks, as it surprised the opponent's offense (all 3 of whom were ball-watching in front of the penalty box on whichever side of the field the kick was initially spotted--much to their coach's chagrin). My question is, is it legal? The league in question uses FIFA rules (modified for field size, team size, and subbing, but not for goal kicks in any way).

I know FIFA laws allow a goal kick to be spotted anywhere in the goal box, and I believe there is no problem with respotting a ball on a GK once it has been placed--unless the referee believes doing so is for the purpose of wasting time. In this particular game, the kicker sometimes waited several seconds for teammates to try to get open, and when they didn't, she would pick up the ball and run to the other side of the goal box. If this falls under time-wasting, does the player have to INTEND to waste time for it to be an infraction? What would you do if you were refereeing this game? (Remember, these are U10 players.)

Sorry if this has come up before--I did a diligent search and couldn't find the answer. If I've managed to miss a prior thread fully devoted to the ins and outs of this important question I would be grateful for a link. :P I hope you all can help me with this one.

[IASocFan]

A DC United keeper got his second yellow for doing this in a Champions League match. The reasoning is that it is delaying the restart. Once the ball has been placed for a Goal Kick, it should just be kicked. If you're the CR in a game for U10, I'd warn them to place it once and kick it.

[refmedic]

I'm willing to bet you that this is coached behavior, from a coach that happened to read that part inthe laws about a goal kick being taken from anyplace inside the goal area, and doesn't understand the part about delaying the restart. IMO, this is obviously a situation of DTR, but I don't think it's being done for the purpose of delaying the restart. ALso IMO, DTR doesn't have to be on purpose. If a player is behaving in a way that delays the restart of play, he, or she is guilty of it. THis could potentially be a tricky situation, and I would NOT caution the player for DTR in this situation. THe first time this happens, simply blow your whistle and walk over to the very young player and explain to him or her that they cannot do that, and WHY. Be ready for the coach, who has most likely told the player to do this, to blow a gasket, or at least complain. Be very professional, and explain to the coach that although a goal kick CAN be taken from anywhere inside the GA, once placed, it cannot be moved, as that is a case of DTR. Undoubtedly the coach will not agree and argue with you, and you will be the worst referee in the world, at least until next week, but keep calm and stick to your guns.

[nsa]

OTOH, if you see this behaviour in a U14 match, it's a safe bet that it is in the later stages of the game and the team doing it is up by one goal. ;)

Book her. :D

[OldAndNew]

On a goal kick, the taker spotted the ball on the left side of the goal area, backed up as if to take the kick, then ran to the ball, picked it up, carried it to the right side of the goal area, put it down (properly, inside the area), and kicked it out of the penalty area. My question is, is it legal?



See Advice to Referees - Law 16 - The Goal Kick:

16.5 TIME WASTING BY THE KICKING TEAM:

Upon being awarded a goal kick, the defending team wastes time if the ball is clearly placed within the goal area in preparation for the restart and is then moved unnecessarily to another location. The referee may caution and show the yellow card for either persistent infringement or delaying the restart of play in situations where the offense is committed a second time by the same team after a warning is given.

This position is also supported by NFHS - Rule 16.1.3:

Once spotted, the ball shall be kicked from the ground . . . and in:

RULE 16, SECTION 1 - PLAY RULING

16.1.3 SITUATION: A4s shot misses wide right and crosses the goal line RULING: Goal kick may be taken anywhere in the goal area. Once the ball is placed, the ball cannot be moved from one spot to another.


What puzzles me even more is why, when there are 1,080 square feet of goal area in which to place the ball, almost every player places the ball PRECISELY at one of the two 'forward' corners. Invariably, those spots are worn out, uneven, muddy or depressed - yet they still insist on trying the place the ball there! Then when it won't 'sit up' to their satisfaction, they move it one foot OUTSIDE the goal area instead of a foot or two along the outer line. We'll be allowing them to use palstic tees next! :rolleyes:

[boylanj64]

What puzzles me even more is why, when there are 1,080 square feet of goal area in which to place the ball, almost every player places the ball PRECISELY at one of the two 'forward' corners. Invariably, those spots are worn out, uneven, muddy or depressed - yet they still insist on trying the place the ball there! Then when it won't 'sit up' to their satisfaction, they move it one foot OUTSIDE the goal area instead of a foot or two along the outer line. We'll be allowing them to use palstic tees next! :rolleyes:

Most young players do not know the LOTG; they see older kids set it on the corner of the box, and they assume that is the proper position, and this is in turn passed on to younger kids who watch them.

As for the switching of sides, the references you've been given from ATR et al are appropriate, but use common sense on the card. NEVER let the kick proceed from the wrong side, as you are setting a precedent for later in the match, but if it is early or the match is out of hand, a quick word should suffice the first time; if it happens again or the game is late and close, by all means book the kicker.

[rippingood]

What puzzles me even more is why, when there are 1,080 square feet of goal area in which to place the ball, almost every player places the ball PRECISELY at one of the two 'forward' corners. Invariably, those spots are worn out, uneven, muddy or depressed - yet they still insist on trying the place the ball there! Then when it won't 'sit up' to their satisfaction, they move it one foot OUTSIDE the goal area instead of a foot or two along the outer line. We'll be allowing them to use palstic tees next! :rolleyes:

I coached a U12 team last year. The end of season party included a card and small gift for me but the best part was where one player signed it with the comment "Thanks for telling me about the high spots" since I had instructed him not to place the ball on the goal area line for goal kicks but to find a high spot or nice chunk of grass to use as a tee.

Undoubtedly the coach will not agree and argue with you, and you will be the worst referee in the world, at least until next week, but keep calm and stick to your guns.
sorry everybody. I already have claims to this title this week; I was offically informed of this by a parent with his daughter in tow after his duaghter's team demolished the opposition 6-1 that I was the worst referee he had ever seen and that every call I made went against their team.

Don't give up, though. There is always next week.

[GKbenji]

This position is also supported by NFHS - Rule 16.1.3

Slight difference--in NFHS, moving the ball is specifically disallowed. At that point, you need to stop things and make them put it back. Under FIFA LOTG, they can move it if they want. In both cases, the referee can caution if they feel it necessary.

I never have. The amount of time it takes is usually minimal--and the move usually doesn't help anyway if the other team is paying the slightest attention. :rolleyes: It would have to be pretty excessive for me to pull out a card for that.

[IASocFan]

...The amount of time it takes is usually minimal--and the move usually doesn't help anyway if the other team is paying the slightest attention. :rolleyes: It would have to be pretty excessive for me to pull out a card for that.

On first occurence, a warning is best - unless it's obviously a delaying tactic such as:

OTOH, if you see this behaviour in a U14 match, it's a safe bet that it is in the later stages of the game and the team doing it is up by one goal. ;)

Book her. :D


On the other hand,
... NEVER let the kick proceed from the wrong side, as you are setting a precedent for later in the match, but if it is early or the match is out of hand, a quick word should suffice the first time; if it happens again or the game is late and close, by all means book the kicker.

there is no WRONG SIDE! Goal kicks can be taken from anywhere in the Goal Area! The kicking team just needs to get the ball into play. Taking 20 seconds to place it at the closests spot is worse than proceeding to the far corner and kicking it in 10 seconds. If it looks like they're delaying warn, then caution.

[boylanj64]

there is no WRONG SIDE! Goal kicks can be taken from anywhere in the Goal Area! The kicking team just needs to get the ball into play. Taking 20 seconds to place it at the closests spot is worse than proceeding to the far corner and kicking it in 10 seconds. If it looks like they're delaying warn, then caution.

Sorry, when I wrote "wrong" side what I meant was the switched side; ie, once the ball is set on the right side, the left side would now be "wrong," even if it would be easier to just let them go. Probably I should have used a better term.

[leviathan]

Thanks to everyone for your comments--it's all pretty much what I thought, but wasn't quite sure. I'm willing to bet you that this is coached behavior, from a coach that happened to read that part inthe laws about a goal kick being taken from anyplace inside the goal area, and doesn't understand the part about delaying the restart. IMO, this is obviously a situation of DTR, but I don't think it's being done for the purpose of delaying the restart. ALso IMO, DTR doesn't have to be on purpose. If a player is behaving in a way that delays the restart of play, he, or she is guilty of it. THis could potentially be a tricky situation, and I would NOT caution the player for DTR in this situation. THe first time this happens, simply blow your whistle and walk over to the very young player and explain to him or her that they cannot do that, and WHY. Be ready for the coach, who has most likely told the player to do this, to blow a gasket, or at least complain. Be very professional, and explain to the coach that although a goal kick CAN be taken from anywhere inside the GA, once placed, it cannot be moved, as that is a case of DTR. Undoubtedly the coach will not agree and argue with you, and you will be the worst referee in the world, at least until next week, but keep calm and stick to your guns.
It was absolutely coached behavior. I would go so far as to bet that the move had been practiced. And I believe that the coach would have gone ballistic if the referee (himself about 14 or 15 years old) had not allowed play to proceed. My own role at the time was as assistant coach for the opposition. (And I do my best to support our young referees, with whom I am usually very impressed.) I went over to the referee at halftime and asked about the maneuver, telling him I didn't think the ball could be moved like that after it had been spotted. He replied that the ball could be placed anywhere in the goal area for a goal kick. I said, yes, that's true, but in this case it's being spotted in one place and then moved to a completely different place--can they do that? He then realized what I was talking about and said he wasn't sure. Since it had already happened a couple or more times in the game, he continued to allow it in the second half, which I wasn't going to argue about (it's a rec. league, it's for the kids, and no way am I going to complain when I'm not even sure myself).

NFHS has a clear rule against moving the ball after it's been spotted for a GK, but that's a slight variation from FIFA. All the discussion here makes it clear to me that even though Law 16 doesn't specifically prohibit respotting the ball, moving the ball from one side of the goal area to the other for tactical gain is a delay of the restart and the referees in my league should be instructed not to permit it.* I think I'll work this one through the referee coordinator so that coaches can't have this opportunity to vent at the referees.

*Certainly no cards should be shown at the level I'm talking about.

Thanks for the discussion, everyone!

[DadOf6]

I'm willing to bet you that this is coached behavior, from a coach that happened to read that part inthe laws about a goal kick being taken from anyplace inside the goal area, and doesn't understand the part about delaying the restart. IMO, this is obviously a situation of DTR, but I don't think it's being done for the purpose of delaying the restart. ALso IMO, DTR doesn't have to be on purpose. If a player is behaving in a way that delays the restart of play, he, or she is guilty of it. THis could potentially be a tricky situation, and I would NOT caution the player for DTR in this situation. THe first time this happens, simply blow your whistle and walk over to the very young player and explain to him or her that they cannot do that, and WHY. Be ready for the coach, who has most likely told the player to do this, to blow a gasket, or at least complain. Be very professional, and explain to the coach that although a goal kick CAN be taken from anywhere inside the GA, once placed, it cannot be moved, as that is a case of DTR. Undoubtedly the coach will not agree and argue with you, and you will be the worst referee in the world, at least until next week, but keep calm and stick to your guns.

Usually when I do a U10 game there is a young referee in center.

When I see thinkgs like that I use my graybeard status and I will talk to the coach.

"Coach? US Soccer has given guidance to its referees that once the ball has been set the restart is ready to be taken and resetting the ball should be cautioned for delaying a restart.

"I'm sure your players don't know that they can be cautioned when they pick up the ball and run it to the other side of the area, so can you tell them at the half? We will probably be looking for it next half."

I do something similar with foul throws.

"The kids need to know how to make a proper throw in, but we could spend half the game calling foul throws. So I call it fairly tightly for the first few minutes of each half, then I relax so the kids can play. If I call a foul throw, then the other team makes a foul throw, the THIRD player will have to be doing jumping jacks on the field before I will call a foul throw. It's a game, not a throw-in clinic."

That pretty much covers every complaint about foul throws I ever get.

[GKbenji]

All the discussion here makes it clear to me that even though Law 16 doesn't specifically prohibit respotting the ball, moving the ball from one side of the goal area to the other for tactical gain is a delay of the restart and the referees in my league should be instructed not to permit it.*

*Certainly no cards should be shown at the level I'm talking about.

Careful--the referee cannot deny it. The only tool the ref has to stop the behavior is a caution... and after the caution, the kick may still be taken from the "wrong" (i.e. new) spot! The referee may also announce they are adding additional time for the delay, FWIW, but really, how much time does this tactic actually take? Just coach your kids to shift to the other side when the ball is moved--they ought to be able to do that and get into position before the kicker is ready. I guarantee you, at U10 the kicker spends more time standing there wondering where to kick it and waiting for players to move than they do moving the ball across the goal area. Like I said, I've never even prevented this tactic, much less cautioned for it, IMHO it's trivial.

[refmedic]

Careful--the referee cannot deny it. The only tool the ref has to stop the behavior is a caution... and after the caution, the kick may still be taken from the "wrong" (i.e. new) spot!
The referee may also announce they are adding additional time for the delay, FWIW, but really, how much time does this tactic actually take? Just coach your kids to shift to the other side when the ball is moved--they ought to be able to do that and get into position before the kicker is ready. I guarantee you, at U10 the kicker spends more time standing there wondering where to kick it and waiting for players to move than they do moving the ball across the goal area. Like I said, I've never even prevented this tactic, much less cautioned for it, IMHO it's trivial.

I'm very troubled by this. A caution is the second-to-last tool that the referee has to stop behavior, not the "only" one. First you have a "look", followed by a quiet word, a public admonishment, and THEN a caution, followed, obviously by a sending-off. I'm sure others may have other steps in their process. Of course you may have to jump all of the other steps and go straight to a caution or a send-off, but that should be the exception, not the rule. The kick may be retaken from the new placement after a caution, but to state that the only way to control this behavior is to caution for it is something I will argue against.

The referee can add time for the delay, but you make an excellent point in this statement that should we get involved by stopping play and making the player kick from the previous place and/or issue a caution immediately, we may be actually HELPING them to DTR. In this instance I think it is more due to a young, uninformed player doing what his coach probably told him to do. A quiet word at the next stoppage should handle this. In an older level game, letting the player know that you are wise to his/her tactics and to knock it off will usually take care of things. If that doesn't work, the caution for DTR will get the message across.

Someone made an excellent point about something I said in another thread. There will be plenty of problems over our referee career, and sometimes even in the same match. We should all do our best to avoid creating more for ourselves.

[leviathan]

Just coach your kids to shift to the other side when the ball is moved--they ought to be able to do that and get into position before the kicker is ready. I guarantee you, at U10 the kicker spends more time standing there wondering where to kick it and waiting for players to move than they do moving the ball across the goal area. Like I said, I've never even prevented this tactic, much less cautioned for it, IMHO it's trivial.
Well, it's funny--this is why I wouldn't have made a big deal about it on the field even if the rule had been clearer. I'm not actually that bothered by the move in question; what bugged me was that I had never seen it before and I wasn't sure it was within the rules. (I was a youth referee many eons and rule changes ago. This is one reason why I try really hard to support them in my new incarnation as a parent-coach.) From the coaching standpoint, yes, my players should be able to adjust, and, as a coach, that's what I'm most interested in addressing--much better use of my time than crabbing about the rules. (Actually, if my players were better positioned to receive the kick instead of globbed together at the outside top of the penalty area, this situation wouldn't even come up.) I'm firmly of the "let 'em play" stripe (so long as it's safe) when it comes to referee discretion.

At the same time, we need to teach the players the rules of the game. I guess at U10 we're in a similar gray area with switching and respotting GKs to the one with allowing do-overs on throw-ins at U8 and U9?

You're completely right about how long the kicker takes waiting for players to move! LOL!

[leviathan]

I'm very troubled by this. A caution is the second-to-last tool that the referee has to stop behavior, not the "only" one. First you have a "look", followed by a quiet word, a public admonishment, and THEN a caution, followed, obviously by a sending-off. I'm sure others may have other steps in their process. Of course you may have to jump all of the other steps and go straight to a caution or a send-off, but that should be the exception, not the rule. The kick may be retaken from the new placement after a caution, but to state that the only way to control this behavior is to caution for it is something I will argue against.

The referee can add time for the delay, but you make an excellent point in this statement that should we get involved by stopping play and making the player kick from the previous place and/or issue a caution immediately, we may be actually HELPING them to DTR. In this instance I think it is more due to a young, uninformed player doing what his coach probably told him to do. A quiet word at the next stoppage should handle this. In an older level game, letting the player know that you are wise to his/her tactics and to knock it off will usually take care of things. If that doesn't work, the caution for DTR will get the message across.
Thanks for this, refmedic. This makes a lot of sense.

[Gary V]

Stop the restart from happening. Warn the players that once they put the ball down, that's where the kick has to be taken from, or they are considered to be wasting time. While you were explaining things, the opponents should have woken up and moved to a better position to intercept the ball.

Yes, I know this actually uses up more time than just letting them move the ball. But it only uses up time ONCE. Now they know the rule, so you should have no further problems. Unless someone is being deliberately dense.

[GKbenji]

I'm very troubled by this. A caution is the second-to-last tool that the referee has to stop behavior, not the "only" one. First you have a "look", followed by a quiet word, a public admonishment, and THEN a caution, followed, obviously by a sending-off.

I guess I wasn't clear... I meant exactly what refmedic said! :) The only thing in the Laws that you can do is caution; you can't force them to take the goal kick from where it was first set down. But of course there are other, less drastic methods to see if you can get them to stop the behavior first. That is, if it is even worth bothering to stop.

At the same time, we need to teach the players the rules of the game. I guess at U10 we're in a similar gray area with switching and respotting GKs to the one with allowing do-overs on throw-ins at U8 and U9?
No, because moving the ball after placing it for a goal kick is allowed under FIFA LOTG. You might discourage it because it wastes time, not because it is illegal. Proper throw-ins, and the penalty for doing it improperly, is in the Laws.

[leviathan]

No, because moving the ball after placing it for a goal kick is allowed under FIFA LOTG. You might discourage it because it wastes time, not because it is illegal. Proper throw-ins, and the penalty for doing it improperly, is in the Laws.
I think we're agreeing more than disagreeing, GKbenji. Sorry if I wasn't clear with my "gray area" comment--and thanks for continuing to press on this. Yes, bad analogy on my part: I wanted to make a point about referee discretion, but you're right that determining whether re-spotting a ball on a goal kick is time wasting is very different from calling (or not calling) an improper throw-in. I get your points, and I can see where others come down on this question as well. This is all very helpful.

[call-it]

I had a situation that was similar -- but not quite the same -- in a U8 girls game I was reffing.

Each time the green team had a goal kick, the goalie would pick up the ball and then suddenly scurry as fast as she could to the far side of the goal area (she never set the ball down at closest side), then put it down and kick it.

Clearly the idea was to catch the other team off guard, but there was one small flaw: It just didn't work. The other's team's players simply moved over to the other side of the field as fast as the goalie did. Yet the green team kept trying this move all game long.

I can imagine the coaches having the team practice this over and over, thinking how clever they were. In fact, the team was not very good and I couldn't help thinking that maybe the coaches should have spent that practice time working on something useful. Like dribbing. Or passing. :)