So now that we have some real depth....who sits?

[ursula]

For the first time in years really we have more field players capable of starting then we have positions. So who sits?

The guaranteed starters

His Holiness and Nellie in defense

Bobby and Benny on the wings

El Diablo at a-mid

Plate O' Food and Q2 at forward. (Yes, Jaime will be given more starts to prove he belongs before he might get benched.)

The uncertain four

That leaves four defensive guys fighting for three positions. And it's not clear which positions they are fighting for. Consider:

Wee One and ITT have done well together as a d-mid tandem clogging up the middle in front of a back three. If we go that way then Milton and Brandon are fighting for the left marking back slot. However with such a lineup we haven't exactly scored [i]any]/i] goals lately, which is something to consider.

We could go to that nominal back four that we saw against SJ yesterday. (Nominal in the sense that Reyes the renegade still is playing more of a rover/libero role.) If we go that route then ITT and ABMOD are fighting for playing time at d-mid and it's not clear who wins. ITT brings better offense and he's tough as nails, but Wee One is a bit more mobile and is tough as well. Considering that the middle of our defense was often quite open yesterday I would be wary of playing this way much against teams that have their strengths up the middle (Quakes, metros with Mathis).

I really haven't a clue how Hudson will play this other than to expect the one who sits to vary from game to game and they will be the first sub off the bench normally.

Anyone have any guesses?

[DigitalTron]

Good analysis, but I'd have to add Reyes to the guaranteed starters. IMHO, he's the best wingback--at either wing--in MLS history. Yeah, he's that good. His defense is phenomenal, his pace excellent, his endurance incredible, his ball skills good and his tactical acumen fantastic. He starts regardless of who else is on the team.

I'd have to go with a 352 with Reyes helping out both in the wing and in central midfield while also tracking back. I'd have Reyes and Olsen share the right wing spot with the other one sliding inside often. It's a loose formation but these guys have the experience to handle it.

Prideaux would start on the left as a pure defender. Nelsen would be in the middle and Pope on the right also as pure defenders, but sliding around depending upon the location of our "Renegade Defender" Milton Reyes.

Renegade Defender ... that's a cool nickname. :D

Agreed on our attacking players, but I'd say that McKinley has earned another start, probably with Williams subbing in if we get a lead. But, if we start scoring consistently I could see Williams starting again.

-Tron

[RMDad]

I would have to agree with Tron. Given more field time together, Ben and Reyes are gonna be a bad-as force.
Chino, Lazo, ali, Roy all ride pine, subbing as necessary.
Mark

[Catch]

I also think Reyes is a guaranteed starter. He's phenomenal, an all-star if we had a better record. I say ABMOD sits and ITT takes over as the sole D-Mid. Having Olsen in the lineup shakes things up big time.

It's also interesting that Mapp got in the game on Saturday as our only subsitution. I wonder if Hudson would have made that move if Villegas had been available. In any case, I like what I saw from the youngster in the few minutes he played. He's another good option off the bench.

[owendylan]

Originally posted by DigitalTron
Good analysis, but I'd have to add Reyes to the guaranteed starters. IMHO, he's the best wingback--at either wing--in MLS history. Yeah, he's that good. His defense is phenomenal, his pace excellent, his endurance incredible, his ball skills good and his tactical acumen fantastic. He starts regardless of who else is on the team.



I'll agree that Reyes is a guaranteed starter but he's not the best wingback in MLS history. Diego Sonora I think currently fits that bill. He was a better passer than Reyes is and has almost as much speed. Our back line for the SJ game was what I envisioned being the preferred backline for the season.

[ursula]

Yeah, okay okay about Renegade Defender! I was t h i s close to putting him in the guaranteed starters list. Slap him on there.

[todda74]

I have to completely disagree with this thread. If the team is in last place how can you have any guaranteed starters? If we have that many players that are really good then why are we losing so much? On paper it seems that we are a really good team but it hasn't been shown on the field yet.

[DigitalTron]

Originally posted by owendylan


I'll agree that Reyes is a guaranteed starter but he's not the best wingback in MLS history. Diego Sonora I think currently fits that bill. He was a better passer than Reyes is and has almost as much speed. True, but you must admit that Sonora was a "Roberto Carlos" type and barely played any defense. :) I would be the first to admit that in his prime Sonora was a better attacking player though. Sonora could cause goals, Reyes doesn't really possess that ability on the offensive end.

Heh, sorry to cause such an uproar about this Skip. I know how highly you think of our Renegade Defender, so I was surprised that you didn't include him.

-Tron

[ursula]

Originally posted by DigitalTron


Heh, sorry to cause such an uproar about this Skip. I know how highly you think of our Renegade Defender, so I was surprised that you didn't include him.

-Tron

Me too! I haven't the faintest idea now why I didn't include him. Sometimes you never know what is gonna come out of your fingers when you sit down and type something into BigSoccer... The space-time continuum somehow gets warped....


Originally posted by todda74
I have to completely disagree with this thread. If the team is in last place how can you have any guaranteed starters? If we have that many players that are really good then why are we losing so much? On paper it seems that we are a really good team but it hasn't been shown on the field yet.


...still there is a difference between between having virtually guaranteed starters, which is what this thread about and saying those starters are "really good" as you are saying todda74. a couple of points of clarification:

- I think the 11 players I named are much better than the other players on the team. In other words this team has precious little depth. Unfortunately we've had to use that depth for much of the lineup for much of the season. This makes for a bad team record.

-I also think that the defenders have proven their effectiveness over the past two months. I don't think it's a stretch to say that we have one of the best defenses in the league.

-It's the offense that has been the biggest problem all year. But of the five starters I named who are the main offensive players only two, convey and Etcheverry have played much this season. The jury is totally out on how this group will work together. The San Jose game was encouraging, but time will tell if they can get their shit together.

[todda74]

with a healthy Q1 and Q2 at the start of next season Moreno will not be quaranteed a spot. though as a 3rd forward he would be a great sub.

And Etch could also use some competition for the Amid role. It seems when he is fired up he plays really well, but if he isn't he's lollygagging all day.

[ursula]

Originally posted by todda74
with a healthy Q1 and Q2 at the start of next season Moreno will not be quaranteed a spot. though as a 3rd forward he would be a great sub.


yes. Totally agree about Moreno and the Double Q's. Too bad Q1 is injured or we might be having an interesting competition right now. As it is we'll have to hold that competition next year- if moreno responds well enough this year.

[entropy]

Reyes is a guaranteed starter, hands down, and IMHO he is better than Sonora ever was, not to take anything away from Diego.

What about a d-mid tandem of Reyes and McKinley, leaving Pope, Nelsen and Prideaux on the back line? Reyes has proven he has the versatility, and IIRC back to his signing, his ability to play a variety of defensive positions was cited by Ray. In fact, I'm pretty sure he played d-mid at times for both his old club and Honduras.

As an added bonus with this defensive set-up, ABMOD sits! ;)

[todda74]

it also seems to me that Reyes has been the only player that goes 100% every game. that's why we are playing so bad, the players don't care sometimes.

[DigitalTron]

Originally posted by entropy
Reyes is a guaranteed starter, hands down, and IMHO he is better than Sonora ever was, not to take anything away from Diego.

What about a d-mid tandem of Reyes and McKinley, leaving Pope, Nelsen and Prideaux on the back line? Reyes has proven he has the versatility, and IIRC back to his signing, his ability to play a variety of defensive positions was cited by Ray. In fact, I'm pretty sure he played d-mid at times for both his old club and Honduras.

As an added bonus with this defensive set-up, ABMOD sits! ;) I wholeheartedly agree. I started an entire thread about that here:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=4994

Usually Dmids are people who have excellent tactical awareness and have "graduated" up from the back line. I think Reyes would be perfect for this. Plus, with Reyes' speed he could cover for McKinley's and Nelsen's lack of pace. And, his ball skills would allow us to move the ball from defense to offense quickly. His dribbling demands defensive attention and he is a good combination passer so would work well with both Convey and Olsen on either side.

Plus, having Prideaux, Nelsen and Pope as dedicated defenders helps our back line. Of the three only Nelsen really has the accomplished ball skills to be dribbling back there, so none is really a wingback.

I think Convey/Mapp and Olsen can do the wing defending and have the speed and ball skills to add to the attack.

-Tron

[Topo]

Prideaux, Pope, Nelsen, Reyes will be our defenders if they are healthy and ready to play. There is no close fifth.

Olsen, Etcheverry, and Convey will be in midfield. (Reyes might move up to midfield.)

The forwards will be any two of our worthless available ones (Moreno, Quintanilla, Curtis, Lassiter, et al).

So, the only spot I see is figuring out one midfielder, probably between Ivan McKinley and Richie Williams as defensive midfielder.

In a 352, Reyes plays midfield. In a 442, Reyes plays right back.

[General Apathy]

Originally posted by Topo


So, the only spot I see is figuring out one midfielder, probably between Ivan McKinley and Richie Williams as defensive midfielder.



I agree. After watching the last game with McKinley as the dmid I've got two thoughts..

(1) If Williams had played we probably wouldn't have fouled SJ so may times in near the box because we would have stopped more counterattacks before they got that far.

(2) McKinley was able to distribute better than Wiliams, and more importantly he was able to win a few headers in the midfield.

Ideally we'd have one dmid with all of these strengths, but until then we're going to have to settle for either one. I think that the second greatest need for United this offseason (the first being a forward that can finish) is an improved dmid/holding midfielder.

-Rob

[slacker]

Originally posted by General Apathy


I agree. After watching the last game with McKinley as the dmid I've got two thoughts..

(1) If Williams had played we probably wouldn't have fouled SJ so may times in near the box because we would have stopped more counterattacks before they got that far.

(2) McKinley was able to distribute better than Wiliams, and more importantly he was able to win a few headers in the midfield.

Ideally we'd have one dmid with all of these strengths, but until then we're going to have to settle for either one. I think that the second greatest need for United this offseason (the first being a forward that can finish) is an improved dmid/holding midfielder.

-Rob

So for the remainder of this year - assuming our back four stays healthy and we stick with a 4-4-2 -Hudson has the choice to go with Ivan or Richie depending on mathcups and tactics (holding D-mid or destroyer D-mid).

The other choice could come at forward, if Zambrano can show us anything . . .

[ursula]

I'd say Zambrano fills two purposes:

1) If Moreno and Q2 are producing, Zambrano is insurance that Hudson feels comfortable with, at least foir now, if the starters tire or we need a third forward in the game or if a starter gets injured. Right now Zambrano is no threat to start. The starters are in position where they have to lose the job.

2) If one of the starters- Moreno or Q2- don't produce over the next several games we will see more of Zambrano as a trial for next year.

Safe to say Hudson is done with Lassiter and probably Curtis. Those two only play if Hudson absolutely has no other choice. Curtis may be back at minimum wage again next year if the roster happens to be able to accomodate him. Lassiter is gone period.

[Victory]

I am going to open the can of worms. I think Richie is a solid player who has played well this year, even when he has been forced to take on offensive responsibilities.

I would write more but I have bankruptcy in 15 minutes (no joke intended). Anyway I thought someone on this board should stick up for the little guy.

[Cweedchop]

Originally posted by entropy
Reyes is a guaranteed starter, hands down, and IMHO he is better than Sonora ever was, not to take anything away from Diego.

What about a d-mid tandem of Reyes and McKinley, leaving Pope, Nelsen and Prideaux on the back line? Reyes has proven he has the versatility, and IIRC back to his signing, his ability to play a variety of defensive positions was cited by Ray. In fact, I'm pretty sure he played d-mid at times for both his old club and Honduras.

As an added bonus with this defensive set-up, ABMOD sits! ;)

This is the way I would go as well.. But I just don't think Hudson has the stones to sit out Williams at this point.. Williams has one job and he does it relatively well.. Where Bichie falls way short is his transition from defense to offense which McKinley does about as well as anyone in MLS.. Conversely, Williams is much more adapt to track and mark opposing offensive attackers whilst McKinley is very slow in that regard....

My ideal lineup at this point:


--------------------- Rimando -------------------


Prideaux ------------- Pope --------------- Nelsen


------------- Reyes ---------- McKinley ----------


Olsen ----------------- Etch ------------- Convey



-------------- Moreno ---------- Q2 -------------



Subs:

Williams
Zambrano
Mapp
Villegas
McGinty