Let's talk about the USMNT, and building around our best players

[superdave]

Let's start from the back. The US has dominant goalkeeping. I don't know how this would affect our style of play.

In the backline, the US has Bocanegra and Pope, both athletic central defenders. Pope is not much of a passer, Bocanegra is pretty good.

In the midfield, Reyna and O'Brien are our best. And they're remarkably similar players. Basically two-way midfielders, very smart, not very fast, both injury prone. A key question is whether the US should build around both of them, or just one.

Some of you may want to include Beasley here, but right now, I, personally, think he's not in the same class as these other players. This ain't Lake Woebegone. Not everyone can be above average.

Up front, Landon is our best player. He is a good finisher, very fast, and a phenomenal one-touch passer.

I don't want to dominate the early discussion. All I'll say is that given Landon's combination of speed, vision, and passing, and having seen him pair up with Walker, I'm seriously starting to think Landon has to be paired with a speedy forward to fully exploit his talents. Whether that means putting him in the midfield in a 3-5-2, or leaving McBride out in a 4-4-2, well that's what this thread is about.

I've already thought about this from the opposite side, and kind of believe a 3-5-2 is our best tactic because it cuts the Gordian knot of finding a pair of fullbacks. I wonder what the issue looks like from this other angle.

Anyway, let's talk about what tactics we can use to maximize the production of our best players. Once that gets ironed out, the "run of the mill" players will sort themselves out.

[Serie Zed]

If you take one of the big-three keepers you can add Donovan, Beasley, Reyna, O'brien, Pope and Bocanegra as the core of the team. If healthy they are far and away our best players right now.

That's seven of eleven positions locked up already.

We have to wait and see who's playing well/healthy in the next year to figure out lineups, but the core is set in stone already.

I agree that we're more likely to find another forward and one more studly central defender than we are two outside backs -- which suggests that a 3-5-2 is in the works.

----------Buddle? Donovan
Beasley-------Martino?--------Klein?
---------JOB----------Reyna
-------Boca-------Pope----------??

[bostonsoccermdl]

Originally posted by superdave
.
In the midfield, Reyna and O'Brien are our best. And they're remarkably similar players. Basically two-way midfielders, very smart, not very fast, both injury prone. A key question is whether the US should build around both of them, or just one.


I pretty much agree with your post, but I cant see building a team around both of them. With injuries, you can pretty much get away with assumming one will be match fit at any given time, but not both.
I dont see how you cant have beasely as a lock starter. I'd say when it comes down to having an overall imnpact, he he is definitely on their level. He causes problems with his speed and his 2 way play is very valuable.

The jury is out on what is best up front. Do you go for pure speed or incorporate target player? I have no idea..

I am most intersted ho/if our younger defenders get into the mix. Guys like Gooch, etc.

[Casper]

I don't see the harm in including Reyna and O'Brien as your dueling d-mids in a 3-5-2. Armas plays very well as a two-way midfield partner with Marsch, Mulrooney does the same with Ekelund, so they would both be used to the idea. I think Mastroeni would be more than capable as an alternative here as well. Among the as-yet-unproven, Ricardo Clark is yet another candidate for this role. With 5 and potentially 6 people most of us are comfortable with for these slots in a WCQ, I don't see an undue risk to the strategy.

I've frequently thought the Nats might look better with a 3-man backline that includes Pope, Bocanegra, and whomever steps up to distinguish themselves among Berhalter/Califf/Gibbs/Onyewu/Borchers/Robinson/Yi/Jolley/Petke/Curtin insert your team's under-rated-in-your-mind-central-defender here. With Beasleylewis well suited to the left wing in a 3-5-2, we would need to fill on only three spots:

get one of our young a-mids to improve, or play Landon there;

get one of our right wings to establish himself as the #1 option;

decide who is the third defender.

I still think Bruce favors a 4-4-2 as a general proposition, though.

[old boy]

I think BA likes the 4-4-2 in qualifiers because many of the teams the USMNT will see in CONCACAF play very well on the counter The US often controls play against teams in the region and gets in danger when they lose possession with too many players going forward. Against top European & South American teams the US is often without possession for long periods, putting them in the position to counter. The opponent and style of play should determine the US personel.

That said, I like the 3-6-1 better for the available players. I agree that depending on both Reyna & O'Brien is risky, but both were healthy for most of the WC2002.

-----Gibbs---Pope---Boca-----
--------Reyna------JOB--------
--Dolo------------------Lewis--
-------Donovan--DMB---------
-----------McBride-------------

[appoo]

interesting superdave.

The normal way of building a team is down the spine and thats what you did for us, and I doubt anybody would disagree with you about that spine. And like you also said, who you pick to play along that spine would depend on our style of play.

My prefered style of play is a flowing passing game. Not the skillful way that Real Madrid plays, but the quicker, more direct style that Manchester United plays. Its all about quickness and not wasting any time. Quick decisions. Don't sit there tooling around with your defender, either dribble by him or pass the ball. Keep the ball moving.

But you also have to ask yourself if we have the players to play such a style. Boca, Reyna, JOB, and Landon can all do it. Bobby Convey's game seems to be designed for it. Cherundolo's to. I think this would also maximize the amount of space and touches that Landon would recieve. And that should be the goal of any offense we run. DaMarcus Beasley would love this I think.

[Serie Zed]

Originally posted by old boy
That said, I like the 3-6-1 better for the available players.

I don't think you'll see that lineup, but I'll give you credit for grapefruit-sized cajones for bringing up the idea of a "3-6-1"

[dude8]

ulitimately, it's "what best eleven can we field when the time comes?". i feel we should put our best 11 players out there, and let the formation build around them, not force players into a "set" formation. is our strength in the midfield? run a 3-5-2. is our strength our forwards? 3-4-3, or 4-3-3. whatever--let us play to our strengths- dream lineup pool to pick from for 2006

forwards-donovan, beasely, adu, buddle, mchead(too old?), player to be named later

mids-armas, mastro, o'brien, renya, lewis, convey, martino,

backs- pope, boca, ???????

keeps-howard, friedel, keller (can't go wrong with any of them)

these obviously aren't the only people capable of playing, but just an idea-

I think our set formation/style of play is that we don't have a set formation/style of play-

and that isn't a bad thing

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by superdave
....

Up front, Landon is our best player. He is a good finisher, very fast, and a phenomenal one-touch passer.

I don't want to dominate the early discussion. All I'll say is that given Landon's combination of speed, vision, and passing, and having seen him pair up with Walker, I'm seriously starting to think Landon has to be paired with a speedy forward to fully exploit his talents. Whether that means putting him in the midfield in a 3-5-2, or leaving McBride out in a 4-4-2, well that's what this thread is about.

...

I would agree that Donovan looked better paired with Walker in the MLS playoffs than he does on average with the National Team. One explanation for this is that Donovan needs to be teamed with a speedy forward to maximize his potential as you posit.

I would throw out several different complementary theories to explain this. First, National Team games are on average harder than MLS, so you would expect Donovan to not look as good against a higher level of opposition. Second, Donovan continues to improve and I would expect to see better performances from him on the National Team too. Third, San Jose has better chemistry as a team than the Nats simply because they spend more time together.

As you might guess, I think the latter set of theories are more likely. I can't think of any reason why having a speedy forward is of particular advantage to Donovan more than having another forward who has other qualities such as holding the ball and flicking or passing it on to him on runs. It is true that Walker's speed allowed him to beat Jim Curtin for the first goal and maybe DeRo's speed convinced the defenders to give him space for the second goal, but the critical thing is that both guys hit perfect passes. I think Donovan needs to play with somebody who can get him the damm ball!

[Mr Martin]

Originally posted by old boy
I think BA likes the 4-4-2 in qualifiers because many of the teams the USMNT will see in CONCACAF play very well on the counter The US often controls play against teams in the region and gets in danger when they lose possession with too many players going forward. Against top European & South American teams the US is often without possession for long periods, putting them in the position to counter. The opponent and style of play should determine the US personel.

That said, I like the 3-6-1 better for the available players. I agree that depending on both Reyna & O'Brien is risky, but both were healthy for most of the WC2002.

-----Gibbs---Pope---Boca-----
--------Reyna------JOB--------
--Dolo------------------Lewis--
-------Donovan--DMB---------
-----------McBride-------------

The original poster wanted to work around our best players. Old Boy's suggestion gets our most talented players on the field at the same time, all in roles that suit their talents exceptionally well. Who cares what you call it -- 3-6-1; 3-2-4-1; etc.

Without sidetracking this discussion into a Sampson-bashing thread, the 3-6-1 is just a way to get players onto the field. Their talents and skills take over from there. Sampson had the wrong players to make this work in 1998. Guys like Burns, Agoos, and Lalas just didn't FIT into the requirements of a 3-6-1.

The lineup above CAN make this work. Plus, we have the right kind of depth (Mastro, Armas, Convey, Klein, Berhalter, Dunivant, Clark, Buddle, etc.) to support this kind of formation.

[zcgf02]

Seems to me that Donovan can play well with either type of complementary forward: another speedy guy like Jamil Walker, or a tradiitonal target forward like Ching or McBride. I think our other forward (assuming LD is a lock as starter there) may depend on the opposition. BA loves to play match ups.

On Sunday, for example, the speedy Walker and LD gave fits to the Chicago back line. We may see some opponents in qualifying with big but slow defence. Or we may see teams who can be out-muscled/jumped by guys like McBride.

So I guess my question is: do we all agree that LD is our best attacking player, and he the one we try to build around? For now, I think so.

[superdave]

Martin Fischer...I should have spelled out that pairing Landon with a Josh Wolff type means that whenever Landon receives a pass, the defense has to simultaneously worry about him turning and running at the D, or flicking a one touch pass into space for the speedster to run onto. I am more of a McBride defender than a basher, but I don't see Bake being dangerous running onto Landon's passes.

I guess I'm saying that before deciding between Bake and Mathis and Wolff, you have to decide how to get the most out of Landon. That will answer the question.
Originally posted by dude8
ulitimately, it's "what best eleven can we field when the time comes?". i feel we should put our best 11 players out there,
Right, except when you get down to the 10th and 11th players, there isn't much difference in total talent between one guy and the next. It'll come down to the style of play.

For example, if you think we should figure that at any given time either JOB or CR will be injured, that leads to the question of whether you want to pair him with a DM or an AM. If it's AM, then that opens up the possibility of Landon there.

Or take Steve Cherundolo. If we're playing a 3-5-2, his lack of height is much less of a concern, so he can play RWB. If a 4-4-2, maybe a bigger player, even at the cost of less skill, is needed.

[appoo]

Originally posted by superdave
For example, if you think we should figure that at any given time either JOB or CR will be injured, that leads to the question of whether you want to pair him with a DM or an AM. If it's AM, then that opens up the possibility of Landon there.

Or take Steve Cherundolo. If we're playing a 3-5-2, his lack of height is much less of a concern, so he can play RWB. If a 4-4-2, maybe a bigger player, even at the cost of less skill, is needed.

My whole thing with USMNT is get as much skill as possible on the field, sometimes at the expense of athletecism. So in the end I would ask this question, which would bring more skill to the field, 2 Fullbacks, or 3 Central Defenders?

[zcgf02]

Originally posted by superdave

Right, except when you get down to the 10th and 11th players, there isn't much difference in total talent between one guy and the next. It'll come down to the style of play.



Exactly, Superdave. Bruce likes to have a stable of players he can roll out depending on the style of play for a particular opponent. I don't think we saw the same line twice at WC2002, for example.

So now the question becomes: Which are the best players around whom we build? It's the other guys who will determine our style much of the time.

Here's my core:

Keller/Friedel/Howard

Boca - Pope

JOB/Reyna (I'm assuming they both won't be healthy at the same time)

Lewis/DMB

Donovan

So from this group we can build out to get a 4-4-2, a 3-5-2, a 4-3-3, or whatever we want.

[old boy]

Let's call it a 3-4-2-1 so my grapefruits don't take a beating! I had actually forgotten that.

Hopefully Arena won't tinker too much. They need to get these guys playing together enough to be comfortable.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by superdave
Martin Fischer...I should have spelled out that pairing Landon with a Josh Wolff type means that whenever Landon receives a pass, the defense has to simultaneously worry about him turning and running at the D, or flicking a one touch pass into space for the speedster to run onto. I am more of a McBride defender than a basher, but I don't see Bake being dangerous running onto Landon's passes.


I don't know if you "should" have spelled it out before, but thanks for doing so now. I guess all I can say is that the benefit you describe would be nice. But I would still place more emphasis on players who can get the ball to Donovan, rather than vice versa or worrying about defenses giving Donovan more room.

Secondly, the only Josh Wolff type we have is unfortunately Wolff and we all know his heavy issues. Walker could be, but he has not played nearly enough. He will have trouble establishing himself on the Under 23 level. If he does, then maybe. But it's a longshot.

I am not even going to address Mathis at this time (though speedster does not pop into my mind) but the one other interesting possiblity is Buddle, who could be described as McBride plus speed. That might fit your bill nicely. But Buddle still has to make the leap from MLS standout to national team contributor. I think he can, but it is far from certain.

Bottom line, while I agree with you that looking at how to get the most out of our stars is valuable, I think it is dangerous to focus too much on ideals given the holes in our player pool. You still have to look at, regardless of theory, who is the better player. And right now, McBride is a lot better player than Walker.

[appoo]

I'm REALLY interested to see how Ed Johnson does during the U2o tournament. As a R-Mid and as a forward

[lurking]

Build from the back I say!

Question 1: Who is your starting goalkeeper?

My answer: Howard, Friedel and Keller are your main candidates. Assuming all are about equal at this stage younger is better, as your less likely to see a drop in form, and more likely to see an improvement. Right now I think its entered Howards time in goal for the US.

Question 2: A 4 or 3 man back line?

My answer: A 3 man back line talent wise is easier, as stay at home defenders are generally easier to find then outside backs. But a 4 man back line is more secure, having extra width and an extra man to help out. I think this area is open to debate really.

Question 3: How do we structure the midfield?

My answer: Notice something about the center of midfield in the MLS cup? Both teams played with 2 guys who you might call defensive midfielders. Certainly no clear attacking midfielder. Finding that center of midfielder playmaker may ultimately be a foolish quest. Perhaps the twin "defensive midfielder" is the way to go with American soccer, two players that pressure the oposition on defense, distribute the ball to more attacking players well and only really press forward after those first two jobs are taken care of. This is not a position for unskilled destroyers, but more the job of players who may not have the free attacking flair you might expect from a #10.

Notice something else about that game? Both teams featured outside midfielders who not only ran touchline to touchline, but would aggresively pinch in offensively. We certainly have no shortage of players that could fit this bill on the left, and I think before too long you will see the same kind of depth on the right.

So think of a box.. or maybe a trapazoid. Two players at the base anchored in the center. In front, two players starting wide but coming in to fill the space in front at their leisure.

Question 4: What if you play with 3 in the back?

My answer: Not much difference, you either play with Donovan as a recessed forward or if something happens to Donovan with Convey as a free roaming attacking midfield, but NOT a playmaker. It does make your outside mids a little less free to attack, so the two playing out there in such a situation must defend well as well.

Question 5: So who plays with Donovan?

My answer: Since Donovan is clearly a no brainer as a forward, but in need of a partner, who do you partner with him? First height is probably a nescessity as chances are our midfield will be small in all likelihood and best not give up too much size to the oponent. Speed is definately a bonus, but not a critical component, I suspect there will be plenty of footspeed . However, with two attacking midfielders and a off the ball player like Donovan the ability to pass is essential. And finally that player has to have a nose for goal. A target forward? It does sound like one but its probaly best not to let finding specificly another McBride cloud our reasoning as to why such a player is helpfull to our team.

Question 6: What if Donovan is absent or hurt?

My answer: Well then you probably take the two best forwards who arent likely to cramp each others style.

So here is a hypothetical 23 man depth chart for MLS based players only:

F1~~~~~Donovan~~~~~Buddle~~~~~~~
F2~~~(Cunningham)~~~(Noonan)~~~~~~
F3~~~~~~~~~~(Twellman)~~~~~~~~~
M1~Beasley~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Mullan~
M2~(Convey)~~~~~~~~~~~~(Ralston)~
M1~~~~~~Armas~~~~Mulrooney~~~~~
M2~~~~(Mastroeni)~~(Beckerman)~~~~
D1~Dunivant~Bocanegra~Pope~~Hedjuk~
D2~~(Robinson)~(Curtin)~(Califf)~~~~~
GK1~~~~~~~~Hartman~~~~~~~~~~~
GK2~~~~~~~~(Brown)~~~~~~~~~~~
GK3~~~~~~~~(Walker)~~~~~~~~~~

Its an example depth chart, Im not sure if I am commited to it or not really. But I think it does serve to illustrate my thinking.

Question 7: What about the Euros?

My answer: Well to me right now the Euros are spice. You mix them in to liven things up a bit, but they really arent the meat and potatoes of the team, you need to count on the MLS guys when building and designing a team. Nice thing is that most fit right in. Goalkeeping is easy, the midfield roles of Armas and Mulrooney are perfectly suited to JOB and Reyna, while its not real clear how Lewis, Casey and Cherundolo fit in. Clearly the euro influence may change as some younger players go abroad, but right now I think the future of the nats is in MLS at this moment.

[jeff_adams]

What really sets Donovan apart is his versatility. He can do some many good things in several parts of the field. If you are going to play him up top, then you can go big/small or fast/faster. If you play with speed, it should be in conjuction with a "counter-attack" style (meaning you are setting back absorbing pressure). I really hate the "long ball" to the target forward crap that we play because they don't get enough support. Play long ball to speed if you have to. At least Landon, Wolff, ect can take defenders on if they don't have a lot of support.

My favorite attacking formation that Arena used was in the Mexico friendly in LA. LD and Wolff played up top with Mathis at attacking mid. All three were just breaking into the full Nats at the time, but you could see what speed and vision could do to a defense. Have we ever had LD and Beasley up front with Convey in the hole? That could be a lot of fun to watch as well....

[fatmaradona]

funny how folks forget Eddie Lewis, who is our best crosser and a solid two way player.
I would get him on the field somehow, either at LM and use Beasley (who can't cross anyway) on the right, ala Sir Alex with Giggs v Liverpool, or put him at LB, in a role that would allow him to move up alot.

right now I'd start:

----Donovan---Buddle----
-------Martino------
Lewis------------Beasley
-----Reyna---O'Brien-----
--Borchers--Boca---Pope--
-----------Keller--------

now I gotta think who's on the bench