2008 CWC - The Usual Side-Discussions (Keep It All Here)

[scmcbride21]

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Mod Note: I have re-named the thread to more accurately reflect the nature of the discussion found here. Discussing format ideas and whether Europeans care may be exciting to the new posters and to those who flat-out hate the competition (and don't get tired of reminding everyone) - but it makes for some tired reading for the rest of us. You know, those of us who actually enjoy the tournament and want to discuss just that.

Long story short, keep it all on this thread or I will move it here.
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And now back to scmcbride21's post...




This is my proposal. Calendar wise I have no clue where you'd put it. But location wise it would be rotated like the real World Cup.

Host - 1
UEFA - 7
South America - 2
CONCACAF - 2
Asia - 2
Oceania - 1
Africa - 1

For a total of 16 clubs. I'd use the old 16 team World Cup format. Of four groups with top two from each group qualifying for the next round quarterfinals, semis, then finals. You would need atleast three weeks for the tournament. So you can play the group stage and knockout rounds. Here is a mock tournament.

I chose England as host, because Premier League has the best coefficient. You'd use 8 venues. I picked teams basically at random so debating which teams should be in is really not the point. But Since England is host and Manchester United and Chelsea were both 1st and 2nd in league and Champions League I chose Arsenal as well because the final would be in London and they finished 3rd in the league. I also used the European Championship in regards to scheduling and venue usage. The top team in each group is the seeded team therefore staying in the same venue for all three group phase matches and if finishing first staying in that same group venue. Also the seeded venues are that based on capacity.

Group A
- Arsenal
- Houston Dynamo
- Lyon
- Urawa Red Diamonds

Arsenal v. Houston Saturday 5p.m. @ Emirates
Lyon v. Urawa Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Villa Park

Urawa v. Houston Wednesday 5p.m. @ Villa Park
Arsenal v. Lyon Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ Emirates

Arsenal v. Urawa Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Emirates
Houston v. Lyon Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Villa Park

Group B
- Chelsea
- Boca Juniors
- Real Madrid
- Al-Ahly

Chelsea v. Boca Sunday 5p.m. @ Wembley
Real Madrid v. Al-Ahly Sunday 7:45p.m. @ City of Manchester Stadium

Al-Ahly v. Boca Thursday 5p.m. @ City of Manchester Stadium
Chelsea v. Real Madrid Thursday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley

Chelsea v. Al-Ahly Monday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley
Boca v. Real Madrid Monday 7:45p.m. @ City of Manchester Stadium

Group C
- Manchester United
- Bayern Munich
- Club America
- Waitekere United

America v. Waitekere United Monday 5p.m. @ Stadium of Light
Manchester United v. Bayern Munich Monday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford

Waitekere United v. Bayern Munich Friday 5p.m. Friday 5p.m. @ Stadium of Light
Manchester United v. Club America Friday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford

Manchester United v. Waitekere United Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford
Bayern Munich v. Club America Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ Stadium of Light

Group D
- Barcelona
- Al-Hilal
- Sao Paulo
- Inter Milan

Sao Paulo v. Inter Tuesday 5p.m. @ Anfield
Barca v. Al-Hilal Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ St. James Park

Inter v. Al-Hilal Saturday 5p.m. @ Anfield
Barca v. Sao Paulo Saturday 7:45p.m. @ St. James Park

Barca v. Inter Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ St. James Park
Al-Hilal v. Sao Paulo Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ Anfield

Quarterfinals

A1 v. B2 Thursday 7:45p.m. @ Emirates
B1 v. A2 Friday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley
C1 v. D2 Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford
D1 v. C2 Sunday 7:45p.m. @ St. James Park

Semifinals

A1/B2 v. B1/A2 Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ Emirates
C1/D2 v. D1/C2 Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford

3rd Place Match

Saturday 7:45p.m. @ St. James Park

FINAL

Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley Stadium

[SwissGCZ]

This is my proposal. Calendar wise I have no clue where you'd put it.
And that's the problem.

The CWC has to be an annual tournament (due to roster changes in club football) and there is simply no room on the calender for a tournament like this. Besides, in order to get the European teams to participate, the number of games has to be kept to a minimum - at least for the time being.

My idea for a slightly more attractive tournament:

Spot 1: UEFA 1
Spot 2: UEFA 2
Spot 3: CONMEBOL 1
Spot 4: CONMEBOL 2
Spot 5: AFC
Spot 6: CAF
Spot 7: CONCACAF
Spot 8: Host / OFC

Example (Q = Quarters; S = Semis; F = Final; P = Placement Match)

Q1: UEFA 1 - Host / OFC
Q2: CONMEBOL 2 - CAF
Q3: UEFA 2 - CONCACAF
Q4: CONMEBOL 1 - AFC

S1: Q1 Winner - Q2 Winner
P1: Q1 Loser - Q2 Loser (Double Header)

S2: Q3 Winner - Q4 Winner
P2: Q3 Loser - Q4 Loser (Double Header)

F1: S1 Winner - S2 Winner
P3: S1 Loser - S2 Loser (Double Header)

- Total 10 Matches.
- All underdogs get their "date" with a big club from Europe or SA.
- A maximum of three matches for the European teams.
- A minimum of two matches for all teams involved.
- All placement matches part of double headers for decent attendance.
- Same time frame as current format.

[GW Emperor]

The FIFA Club World Cup should consist of Continental Champions ONLY, and no teams that do not belong their (i.e. runners up, third place etc) should NOT be involved. By having only the Continental Champions compete and in a straight knock out format, this makes it a proper, non misleading comp which determines who the true best in the World is. At present the FIFA Club World Cup is very close to being like this. All FIFA needs to do is stop allowing the host nation's league champion to enter, as they do not belong their and are a huge odd one out when you consider that the other six competitors are Continental Champions.

scmcbride - One thing that puzzles me about your format is that you give a walloping 7 berths to UEFA, and only 2 to CONMEBOL. Not only is this unfair, when you consider that CONMEBOL Clubs have actually won the comp more than UEFA, but it also means that their would be 6 UEFA Clubs in the comp that do not deserve to be there.

Swiss - Your comp is much better looking and I like it how you have put every Champion competitor in the first round, therefore treating every club as equals. The only probs are though that you gave spots to runner ups of UEFA and CONMEBOL, and a host nation, therefore Clubs that should not be involved. I do suppose though that your version of the comp would probably gain the greater public interest, this over the true best version of Champions ONLY or any other version. What I would do with your version though, is I would not allow the UEFA and CONMEBOL runner up's to start on even terms with the Continental Champions, as these instead should have to go through a qualifying match.

[scmcbride21]

GW Emporer, then judging by the way you look at things the world cup should be only the six continental champions too. Screw the World Cup qualifiers only champions should be there. And with only the continental champions are there then the World Cup can be done in a week. Let's be honest the UEFA clubs don't take this tournament as serious as the South American clubs, because really for some reason the prestige of winning the club world cup doesn't seem to be a big deal to many. My point is this isn't the World Champions League. Slot allocation could be changed too. You could give UEFA 6 slots and CONMEBOL 3. Look in the World Cup the UEFA gets almost triple the amount of slots then CONMEBOL.

[GW Emperor]

GW Emporer, then judging by the way you look at things the world cup should be only the six continental champions too. Screw the World Cup qualifiers only champions should be there. And with only the continental champions are there then the World Cup can be done in a week. Let's be honest the UEFA clubs don't take this tournament as serious as the South American clubs, because really for some reason the prestige of winning the club world cup doesn't seem to be a big deal to many. My point is this isn't the World Champions League. Slot allocation could be changed too. You could give UEFA 6 slots and CONMEBOL 3. Look in the World Cup the UEFA gets almost triple the amount of slots then CONMEBOL.


Firstly, us Europeans may not admit to desperately wanting to win the Club World Cup, but deep down inside every European Club does want to win this. Anybody who says they do not want to win this comp needs mental help, this because at the end of the day this comp is the only way to determine who the best in the World is, and you actually recieve the evidence to say so. Who in their right mind would not want to be a World Champion? Also have you noticed that every time a Euro Club enters this comp, they always turn out their best team? This therefore meaning that the whole daft theory of us European's not caring about being World Champion goes right out of the window.
Secondly, you need to remember that Club Football is played far more over the year than International Football, therefore meaning that World Cup's for both level's have to look different. Club wise, you go through your entire domestic league, then on winning this (or even digracefully finnishing second, third, fourth with some league's) you go onto compete in the head Continental Cup (Champions League), and on winning this you enter the very exclusive Club World Cup. Unfortunately at International Level the same cannot be done.
Every Continental Champions League should do as the title suggests and consist of every Champion only, and then only the winners of these Continental comps should go onto the Club World Cup. At present only the latter is close to being a true, proper comp.

[GW Emperor]

scmcbride - It is the dumb European media that send out the impressions that the European Club's dont care as much for the Club World Cup, this they do to protect the Euro Clubs everytime they lose to the South Americans, and because they like to over rate everything within Europe and heavily under rate everything out of it. In the process of doing so however, the media make us Europeans look as though we are stupid, as it suggests we oddly do not want to be the best in the World and be a World Champion. You should listen to the European Clubs and general public, and not the Euro Media, which is by far the worst in the World, and you will see that truly any sane European does want to be a World Champion, and win the Club World Cup.

[OrangeCajun]

I would like to see:

1. Uefa Champ
2. Concacaf Champ
3. Conmebol Champ
4. Caf Champ
5. Afc Champ
6. Oceania Champ
7. Host (rotating continents every year)
8. Previous Champ

[hard_to_beat]

If you are going to have a proper Club World Cup, there are several definites which, like it or not, FIFA would have to adhere to:

a) It would have to include at least24 clubs, and most probably 32 clubs in order to maximise interest for fans, clubs, broadcasters, sponsors and just about anyone with a passing interest.

b) As a result a), it could only be held every 4 years.

c) The majority of clubs involved would have to be from UEFA, for similar reasons to a).

d) It would have to be played in the summer in order to accommodate the European club season.

e) It would have to be played in Europe every 2nd tournament, again to accommodate Europe, which is where the majority of clubs will be from.

f) It couldn't last more than 3 weeks.

With respect to d), the obvious path to go down is for a proper Club World Cup to take the place of the Confederations Cup in the current set-up. The Confederations Cup wouldn't be missed.

If you were to have a 32 team tournament (8 groups of 4 teams), the first teams to qualify would be the champions of every continent from the past 4 years - except OFC would have only 2 champions (play-offs if needed). Therefore, as there as 6 confederations, 22 slots would already be taken up. With 10 slots left, I'd imagine that UEFA would get 8, and CONMEBOL the other 2, and these slots would be awarded to those clubs with the best record in the UEFA Champions League/Copa Libertadores over the past 4 years. If in any confederations there are teams that have been champions more than once, the spare places go to the club(s) with the best 4yr record.

So, we have the teams, and now for the draw:
Pot A (top seeds): 8 teams - UEFA and CONMEBOL champions (or highest ranked clubs)
Pot B: 8 teams - UEFA's 8 highest ranked clubs
Pot C: 2 teams - CONMEBOL's 2 highest ranked clubs, drawn into groups with 2 UEFA clubs.
OFC Pot: 2 teams - OFC champions, drawn into groups with 1 CONMEBOL club and 1 UEFA club.
CAF Pot: 4 teams - CAF champions, drawn into groups not already having 3 clubs assigned.
CONCACAF and AFC Pot: 8 teams - CONCACAF and AFC champions

If such a Club World Cup was to have been held in summer 2008 (admittedly, not a possible event if it were to replace the Confederations Cup, but it is only for demonstrative purposes):

UEFA and CONMEBOL champions (Pot A): Manchester United (2008), AC Milan (2007), FC Barcelona (2006), Liverpool (2005); Boca Juniors (2007), Internacional (2006), Sao Paulo (2005), Once Caldas (2004)
UEFA's highest 8 (Pot B) (UEFA's club coefficient): Chelsea, Arsenal, Sevilla, Lyon, Inter Milan, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSV Eindhoven
CONMEBOL highest 2 (Pot C): River Plate, Santos
OFC Pot: Waitakere United (2008), Auckland City (2006)
CAF Pot: Etoile Sahel (2007), Al-Ahly (2006), Enyimba (2004), ASEC Mimosas (Highest)
CONCACAF and AFC Pot: Pachuca (2008), America (2006), Deportivo Saprissa (2005), Olimpia (Highest); Urawa Red Diamonds (2007), Jeonbuk Hyundai Motors (2006), Al-Ittihad (2005), Seongnam Ihwa Chunma (Highest)

As for f), it would be easily possible to play out a 32 team tournament in 3 weeks, complete with a round of 16, quarters and semis, and obviously a final. The opening round of group games could be played on a Saturday over 4 different kick-off slots, after 2 rest days the 2nd round is player over Tuesday and Wednesday (2 diff ko’s a day), another 3 rest days and the final group games played over Sunday (4 dko’s). The knockout stage would be easy to fit in the remaining 2 weeks.

[scmcbride21]

Alternate Proposal

6 Teams Only
Each Confederations Champion Qualifies
It would rotate between the six confederations
Host cities would be chosen year of the tournament to accomodate Continental Champion host. Example if Manchester United wins Champions League and it's UEFA's turn to host that year then tournament is held in England So this is my new proposal and can easily fit into the years calendar as it would only take a week to complete.

Quarterfinals

Oceania v. CONCACAF Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley
Africa v. Asia Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Anfield

Semifinals

Oceania/CONCACAF v. Europe Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford
Africa/Asia v. South America Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley

5th Place Game

Quarterfinal losers Friday 7:45p.m. @ Anfield

3rd place game

Semifinal losers Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford

World Club Cup Final

Semifinal winners Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley

[GW Emperor]

Alternate Proposal

6 Teams Only
Each Confederations Champion Qualifies
It would rotate between the six confederations
Host cities would be chosen year of the tournament to accomodate Continental Champion host. Example if Manchester United wins Champions League and it's UEFA's turn to host that year then tournament is held in England So this is my new proposal and can easily fit into the years calendar as it would only take a week to complete.

Quarterfinals

Oceania v. CONCACAF Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley
Africa v. Asia Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Anfield

Semifinals

Oceania/CONCACAF v. Europe Tuesday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford
Africa/Asia v. South America Wednesday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley

5th Place Game

Quarterfinal losers Friday 7:45p.m. @ Anfield

3rd place game

Semifinal losers Saturday 7:45p.m. @ Old Trafford

World Club Cup Final

Semifinal winners Sunday 7:45p.m. @ Wembley


scmcbride - What you have described here is much better. You have only included the Continental Champions, which is the way it should be, as these Continental Champions are the only ones who truly deserve to be involved. You have the tournament in a straight knock out set up, which is the only way to determine who the true best in the World is, whereas silly, pointless group stages do not do this. And you have made the host nation, a Country that one of the Continental Champion's belong to. What you have described here is near enough a proper Club World Cup, and at present FIFA are close to this, in which all they need to do is eliminate that underserved 7th Club (the host nation) from being involved, and instead actually give the host nation honour to one of the Continental Champion's.

[SJJ]

=The CWC has to be an annual tournament (due to roster changes in club football)
I am slowly coming around to this viewpoint, but I am still thinking that every-two-years will provide some more "kick" or "buzz" to this. I would make it 16 teams, every two years, but single-elimination (not group play). You would take two year's worth of continental club tournaments for the 16 teams:

Europe (4), South America (4), Asia (2), North America (2), Africa (2), Oceania (1: playoff between two winners), host (1).

Now, some are saying that Asia should absorb Oceania, but then split into East and West. (No real proposal for that; just talking out loud.) If that were to happen, my listing above may have to change to Asia-East (2), Asia-West (2), with no Host position.

[JLSA]

What you have described here is much better. You have only included the Continental Champions, which is the way it should be, as these Continental Champions are the only ones who truly deserve to be involved.

A somewhat ironic view, given that of all the confederations, the only one that limits the entrants to its qualifying tournament to actual champions is the only one that doesn't get a spot in the tournament.

J

[SwissGCZ]

The FIFA Club World Cup should consist of Continental Champions ONLY
I agree with you in principle, but the problem since Australia's move to the AFC has been the weakness of the OFC champion. It would be like giving the opponent a free-pass to the next round (and the prize money that goes with it.)

[GW Emperor]

I agree with you in principle, but the problem since Australia's move to the AFC has been the weakness of the OFC champion. It would be like giving the opponent a free-pass to the next round (and the prize money that goes with it.)

It does not matter how weak the OFC team may be, as they still worked their ass off to be crowned champion of their continent, and in order for a true World Champion to be crowned in a World Cup, a team from each continent of the World must be involved in order for this occur, no matter how weak a team maybe.

[DCUdiplomat96]

the OFC sould desolve and join the Asian group. Comebol should merge with concacaf

[scmcbride21]

the OFC sould desolve and join the Asian group. Comebol should merge with concacaf

I do think OFC should dissolve into Asia, but I doubt CONCACAF and CONMEBOL will merge. South America likes the way they have things and the USA and Mexico the two big dogs in CONCACAF like there all but virtual guaranted world cup slots as being part of CONCACAF. They really aren't willing to give that up.

[almango]

Alternate Proposal

6 Teams Only
Each Confederations Champion Qualifies
It would rotate between the six confederations
Host cities would be chosen year of the tournament to accomodate Continental Champion host. Example if Manchester United wins Champions League and it's UEFA's turn to host that year then tournament is held in England So this is my new proposal and can easily fit into the years calendar as it would only take a week to complete.


Not a bad proposal with some fine tuning to work out. The timing of the tournament may need some reworking. If, for example, we were using this system with Asia the host then the actual host of the tournament wouldn't be decided until Wednesday this week. With a bit of fine tuning its one of the better ideas.

[DCUdiplomat96]

I do think OFC should dissolve into Asia, but I doubt CONCACAF and CONMEBOL will merge. South America likes the way they have things and the USA and Mexico the two big dogs in CONCACAF like there all but virtual guaranted world cup slots as being part of CONCACAF. They really aren't willing to give that up.

well there needs to be more balance and having four large federations and each having even slots is best i think or give 3 for each and playoff the rest.

[jus2nang]

Anything more than 16 teams would be totally unworkable. I'd suggest 8 teams or so every 2 years.

IIRC, I posted my idea on another thread of the same topic, I'll look for it now.

[jus2nang]

Here's what I wrote in the other thread:

How about having it once every 2 years instead of every year? Assuming nobody wins their continental title twice in a row we'd have 12 winners. The most recent UEFA, CONMEBOL, CAF & AFC team could go striaght into the group stage. The others could playoff against each other for the other 4 places.

OFC vs OFC and CONCACAF vs. CONCACAF (to ensure every federation has at least 1 rep) and then the remaining UEFA, CAF, CONMEBOL & AFC teams can be drawn randomly against each other for the other 2.

Lump the 8 teams into two groups of 4 (ensuring that teams of the same confed are separate) and we're good to go.

If any team wins their continental title twice then they can go straight into the group stage without any need for a playoff (It's almost impossible that we'd get 5 or 6 back to back winners in the same 2 year period).