2008 CWC - The Usual Side-Discussions (Keep It All Here)

[GW Emperor]

didn't read through all of this, but the main complaint I have judging from the ideas on the first page is that it's BS that UEFA would get 7/16 teams or as the other guy said 16/32, while COMENBOL would get 2/16 or 6/32

Complete bullsh*t we've proven in this tournament that we are at LEAST on par with the top European clubs. And as for the host being the country of one of the continental champions, i think it would be hilarious. I would love to see the best European team have to play in Boca's stadium. They'd sh*t their pants IMO. or in the Azteca, Maracana etc


Well said bosterosoy

Boca Juniors are a World Class side, with quality that can match the best Euro Clubs. To anybody who truly knows their World Football this is blatantly obvious, and it is also blatantly obvious that overall the confederation of CONMEBOL is very close to that of UEFA in terms of player and team quality.
You are also right in what you say regarding Latin American home turfs, in which in my opinion I would be quite surprised if any European Club could beat a Top Latino Club from Brazil, Mexico, and Argentina, at these Latino's home grounds.
The problem with living in Europe is that the media here love to heavily over rate everything that is European and heavily under rate everything that is not. It is for such reasons that the Euro media is branded as the Worst in the World. Thankfully I was able to break free from this untrue Euro strategy and I actually heavily researched and watched Football from all around the globe, and as a result I now know that the the Club's of UEFA are nowhere as great as they make out to be, in comparison to the rest of the World.

[BocaFan]

Boca Juniors are certainly NOT far off from the quality of Arsenal. Arsenal only slightly have the edge over Boca in quality at present.

Oh come on! Are you saying that players like Wilshere or Ramsey aren't good enough to play for Boca? These are players on Arsenal's "C" team.


Evidence can be seen by looking at FIFA Club World Cup's, in which since this version of the Cup started in 2000, the South American's actually lead victories of the comp, over the Europeans by 3 to 1, and at the end of the day it is the evidence that matters. The South American's even actually won these games in a one legged match on neutral ground, and at the end of the day this is the true way to determine who the better side is, as both sides have a greater determination to win, this when they know that they have only one chance to get it right.

Actually, the best way to determine the better side is to play a 34 or 38-game double-round robin (like a regular league-format) and see who finishes ahead of who. You can't read much into one game (especially one that UEFA clubs don't care much about)

I would love to see the best European team have to play in Boca's stadium. They'd sh*t their pants IMO. or in the Azteca, Maracana etc

Most players who were brilliant in places like the Bombonera, Maracana, etc a few years ago are now plying their trade in Europe. Why would players like Tevez, Robinho, Aguero, Mascherano, "sh*t their pants" if they played a game in South America now? In the past they played lots of matches in atmospheres you see down there and excelled. Today they are even better players.

[BocaFan]

It is also blatantly obvious that overall the confederation of CONMEBOL is very close to that of UEFA in terms of player and team quality.

But we're not talking about "overall". We're talking about the elite teams in each confederation only. There's no parity in Europe. All the best players go to the same 12-15 clubs. But unfortunately for other confederations, its those teams that they will have to meet in this tournament. :cool:

[GW Emperor]

Oh come on! Are you saying that players like Wilshere or Ramsey aren't good enough to play for Boca? These are players on Arsenal's "C" team.



Actually, the best way to determine the better side is to play a 34 or 38-game double-round robin (like a regular league-format) and see who finishes ahead of who. You can't read much into one game (especially one that UEFA clubs don't care much about)



Most players who were brilliant in places like the Bombonera, Maracana, etc a few years ago are now plying their trade in Europe. Why would players like Tevez, Robinho, Aguero, Mascherano, "sh*t their pants" if they played a game in South America now? In the past they played lots of matches in atmospheres you see down there and excelled. Today they are even better players.


Wilshere and Ramsey are not good enough to play for Boca and you know it. These two youngsters along with the majority of Arsenal's other midfielders, are no where near as good as Boca midfielders Battaglia, Gracian, and especially Riquelme.

It is only the Euro media that sends out the impression that the European Clubs do not care much for the Club World Cup, this to protect us when we lose to the South American's and to keep people believing that we are the greatest. Deep down inside however every Euro Club does desperatly want to win this, as at the end of the day this is the only way in Club Football to be crowned best in the World and a World Champion. Plus when it comes to every Club World Cup you will notice that every Euro Club involved always turns out their best side, so therefore this throws any stupid theory of us Europeans not caring straight out of the window.
It is an absolute insult for somebody to say that us Europeans do not care for the Club World Cup. This because it makes us look totally stupid and that we oddly do not want to be a World Champion. Are you NapoliSupporter implying that I and every other European are stupid?

Finally, the Mexican's, Brazilian's, and Argentinian's of Euro Club's might not be afraid to play back at their home grounds, but the others (Europeans, Asians etc) would certainly be affected. It would be too imposing for such unfamiliar players and it would certainly affect their game. Have you ever wondered why we never see a Euro Club go for a friendly over to these places, yet instead we only ever see these Clubs (or even Countries) go to Euro or USA?

[bosterosoy]

Oh come on! Are you saying that players like Wilshere or Ramsey aren't good enough to play for Boca? These are players on Arsenal's "C" team.

LMFAO! No way would they be starters. They would be, as they are in Arsenal, on the reserve/youth team.

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that Boca has a solid midfielder. Sebastian Battaglia is an incredible DM, Vargas is a good player as well (Colombian NT) and Datolo (you might see him in Spain next year) would have been called up to the NT if it was not for the fact that only European players were chosen for the game vs. Scotland because the Argentinian is at it's defining point.

Then you have Gracian, Chavez, etc. Boca's youth team is STACKED. Martin Palermo (top forward) and Rodrigo Palacio (almost went to Chelsea/Barcelona but was happy staying at Boca and then had some injuries) have been out and they've had the playing time split between Mouche, Noir and Viatri (all solid youth players that have unbelievable potential). Christian Tevez is a less rugged version of Carlos Tevez who plays midfield. If it was not for Boca having Riquelme, Nicolas Gaitan (backup AM) who has scored 5 goals despite only coming on as a sub in 7/8 games would have been already worth 15+ million euros if not more.

The defense is solid, and has incredible defensive depth, including a 17 year old named Munoz that is already garnering interest from AC Milan.

Maybe you should slow down and actually know what your talking about before commenting.

Let's take your Napoli, a team competing for Serie A title. The only players on that team that would actually interest Boca Juniors and make the team are possibly Lavezzi (that's right possibly because we have Riquelme as AM and Palacio as the deep lying forward) and Hamsik incredible player). Perhaps Denis and only because Palermo is currently injured and perhaps Maggio because Ibarra has had injury problems lately.

Actually, the best way to determine the better side is to play a 34 or 38-game double-round robin (like a regular league-format) and see who finishes ahead of who. You can't read much into one game (especially one that UEFA clubs don't care much about)

This is one thing I never understood. So your saying that UEFA teams take their starting lineup to a tournament, with a pretty decent money prize, and that they don't care? That sounds like the talk of a sore loser to me. When UEFA club wins it's because 'they are the best and superior to COMENBOL' when COMENBOL team wins its because 'UEFA doesn't care. Professional players don't like to LOSE. They play to win, whether you want to believe it or not. On top of that, if they are playing an 'inferior' COMENBOL team, even more reason they want to win, to avoid embarrassment no?

[RickChelsea]

It's true that players don't like losing games, not even friendlies but when players lose at a cup competition like this one it is not as if they go back to the lockeroom crying their eyes out like they just lost the World Cup/UEFA CL final.

[bosterosoy]

It's true that players don't like losing games, not even friendlies but when players lose at a cup competition like this one it is not as if they go back to the lockeroom crying their eyes out like they just lost the World Cup/UEFA CL final.
Ask Milan how badly they wanted to get revenge against Boca last year.
Or how badly Real Madrid wanted to win it in 2002 after they had lost it in 2000

[RickChelsea]

How exactly can i ask Milan:confused:

[scmcbride21]

How exactly can i ask Milan:confused:

Just dial Kaka's personal cell phone and he'll give you an answer.

[bosterosoy]

How exactly can i ask Milan:confused:
wise a$$ lol
just look at press releases and what the players said. They were so pumped to get some revenge. It wasn't for anything that it was their number 1 goal last year :rolleyes:

[BocaFan]

It's true that players don't like losing games, not even friendlies but when players lose at a cup competition like this one it is not as if they go back to the lockeroom crying their eyes out like they just lost the World Cup/UEFA CL final.

True. To be fair, I probably should've wrote "UEFA teams tend not to care as much". They obviously do want to win the CWC.

I stand firm on my other statement, though. We can talk all day long about promising players in South America and simply list a bunch of names of guys playing for Boca thinking that makes us look smart, but how do we ignore the fact the most successful players in S.A. all go to Europe and spend their prime years over there?? Many of them (e.g. Carlos Tevez) can't even get into the starting line-up at big European clubs despite dominating South American leagues as a youngster.

[bosterosoy]

Carlos Tevez is a great example. He played much better when he was younger than when he went to West Ham/Manchester United.

You can't just assume that players get better when they go to Europe. IMO they 1) get slightly better, 2) stay the same or 3) get worse. Rarely do they get 'insanely better' than when they were in South America.

When some of these players go to Europe they get 'Europeanized'. Look at Robinho, he had to bulk up when he went to Real madrid and lost some of his explosiveness/flair that made him the incredible player that he was at Santos. IMO those players are solid examples of S.A. players that have gotten much worse and are not as good as they were when they played in S.A.

[BocaFan]

Carlos Tevez is a great example. He played much better when he was younger than when he went to West Ham/Manchester United.

You can't just assume that players get better when they go to Europe. IMO they 1) get slightly better, 2) stay the same or 3) get worse. Rarely do they get 'insanely better' than when they were in South America.

When some of these players go to Europe they get 'Europeanized'. Look at Robinho, he had to bulk up when he went to Real madrid and lost some of his explosiveness/flair that made him the incredible player that he was at Santos. IMO those players are solid examples of S.A. players that have gotten much worse and are not as good as they were when they played in S.A.

Or perhaps they only look worse in Europe because the defenses they face are more organized.

If what you wrote was true, at least half of Argentina and Brasil's national team players would be playing for clubs based in South America. :cool:

[hard_to_beat]

I have to laugh at the utter nonsense which almost all people in the this thread have posted. CONMEBOL almost equal to UEFA? Champions only? Annually? I'm sorry, but reality does unfortunately have a horrible knack of smashing rose-tinted glasses.

Sponsors alone would demand a big UEFA participation because, frankly, all but handful of the world's best players play in UEFA. In any case, a World Cup of any sort shouldn't be organised on equality of geography, but on talent and quality. Apart from Boca and another club in a given year, CONMEBOL can't shine a match to UEFA's bonfire.

[M]

If what you wrote was true, at least half of Argentina and Brasil's national team players would be playing for clubs based in South America. :cool:

For their last qualifying game, Argentina had just one player from a South American team that started the game. That's less than the number of English Premier League players who started. Either Argentina is misguided in its selection policies or these claims of parity are essentially nonsense.

[RickChelsea]

Carlos Tevez is a great example. He played much better when he was younger than when he went to West Ham/Manchester United.

You can't just assume that players get better when they go to Europe. IMO they 1) get slightly better, 2) stay the same or 3) get worse. Rarely do they get 'insanely better' than when they were in South America.

When some of these players go to Europe they get 'Europeanized'. Look at Robinho, he had to bulk up when he went to Real madrid and lost some of his explosiveness/flair that made him the incredible player that he was at Santos. IMO those players are solid examples of S.A. players that have gotten much worse and are not as good as they were when they played in S.A.

How does a player bulking up constitute him becoming "worse" and "not as good" as he was in SA? Yes you do not see Tevez make end to end runs on his own and score anymore like he did in SA because he has had to adapt to the European way of playing where we are not as forgiving when it comes to someone making a dash like they are in SA nor are they allowed much time on the ball as they are in SA. Tevez is also now a team player, the team works to score goals. How becoming beneficial to the team is "worse" i don't know.

I still don't understand what flair and explosiveness has to do with anything about being a good player regarding Robinho as he still delivers at international level and how in the hell are you going to argue with 7 goals in 8 games for City?

[bosterosoy]

For their last qualifying game, Argentina had just one player from a South American team that started the game. That's less than the number of English Premier League players who started. Either Argentina is misguided in its selection policies or these claims of parity are essentially nonsense.
It's because the other coach was a joke and our team was doing awful with the players that were selected.

Watch that prob 4/5 starters will be from the Argentinian league (Riquelme, Papa, Angeleri, and perhaps Veron) while Montenegro, C. Ledesma, Battaglia, Datolo, Palacio (if he recovers and comes back 100% from injury) etc etc will get their chances as well

Your also forgetting that games are not won on paper

[Dr. Know]

Many of them (e.g. Carlos Tevez) can't even get into the starting line-up at big European clubs despite dominating South American leagues as a youngster.

That's only because he's in ManU and they already have a player very similar to him in Rooney who also happens to be a club favorite so he'll never be benched even if he's playing bad. He would be starting for most other clubs.

[Dr. Know]

It's because the other coach was a joke and our team was doing awful with the players that were selected.

Watch that prob 4/5 starters will be from the Argentinian league (Riquelme, Papa, Angeleri, and perhaps Veron) while Montenegro, C. Ledesma, Battaglia, Datolo, Palacio (if he recovers and comes back 100% from injury) etc etc will get their chances as well

Your also forgetting that games are not won on paper

Let's be honest though. Out of all those players the only ones who have a realistic shot of being regular starters are Riquelme and maybe Papa if he proves to be good option at LB.

Also this argument about European clubs not caring about the tournament gets tossed around every once in a while. Evidence has been provided (from Del Bosque saying that losing to Boca was his worst moment as Madrid's manager to Del Piero saying that scoring the winning goal against River in the Intercontinental was one of his best moments as a player) that clearly shows that the Euro players and clubs do care about the tournament. Probably not as much as the CL but they still don't dismiss it as a friendly like some people claim. Unless evidence is provided to defend that point I'll continue to take the players and managers word for it..

[El CHarro_NEgro....]

For their last qualifying game, Argentina had just one player from a South American team that started the game. That's less than the number of English Premier League players who started. Either Argentina is misguided in its selection policies or these claims of parity are essentially nonsense.

Well, to be fair the coach of that game got fired the next morning. Look at the players that Paraguay has ;)