Einmal Löwe - Immer Löwe / TSV 1860 München Official Thread 08/09 II [R]

[LoewenBoy]

You said something about not being sure 1860 would take one of these guys unless they lose Gebhart. Well, what happens if Gebhart gets hurt? Where is 1860 then??
Lars Bender or Bierofka. Heck, there are two kids on the U23 team that could come up that are just like Gebhart was 18 months ago, just as eager, just as fresh, just as good, but without the 18 months experience of Timo. Yes, it would be like starting over in the position, but hey.


If the money just isn't there, I understand. Neither of these guys are stars and they are "old", but there is a such thing as having a squad that is "too young."
I agree. However, what is the sense in taking a player in a key position who is 34? Seitz I can see, but Copado is old. I would rather go after someone who has potential to help longer term than go for a short term solution.

Now, if Gebhart is on his way out, then Copado may be the best we can do for the short term to plug that hole. But if Gebhart does not go, why chase Copado?

I am not saying we do not need people. I am just saying we need to be smart about how we spend our precious cash. I don't think "any port in a storm" applies here. Kurz believes in the kids he has and is realistic that promotion is not possible right now. I truly think Kurz is taking a Reuter-like approach and trying to develop this team over a 3 year period. Remember, we have some aging players like Berhalter, Hoffman, and Schwarz. We need to replace THEM too. Why take on a Copado now? Besides, I could see him going to a 3.BL team rather than a 2.BL team....unless he went to a team like Koblenz or another that is in trouble in that position.

Here's some fun to think about: Schroth's contract is up in June and he has not played one game for 1860....not even a kick-about. Do we extend? That's 800k we could use elsewhere. Think of the $$ wasted on that move. Yet another Cerny/Tyce style insurance policy that never panned out.

[LoewenBoy]

Now, if you ask me about possible players to pick up, seems Rostock is having a fire sale. They have let several players go. Unfortunately, I do not know these guys so I cannot comment, but they are in the right age range to fit 1860, as they have not already paid for their place at a retirement facility.:cool:

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/501848/

[footyfan1]

Now, if you ask me about possible players to pick up, seems Rostock is having a fire sale. They have let several players go. Unfortunately, I do not know these guys so I cannot comment, but they are in the right age range to fit 1860, as they have not already paid for their place at a retirement facility.:cool:

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/2bundesliga/startseite/artikel/501848/

I was just about to post about those guys. Rahn might be past it, but Yelen might be able to help in midfield even if Gebhardt goes.

I always thought Yelen was a very nice prospect, but didn't get the right coaching/leadership at Rostock.

But from what I have read, they have been given permission to find new clubs, not outright released from their contracts. You know that means right?

You got it, TRANSFER FEES!!!

Yeah, these guys might be better, but as I told you, 1860 can't be picky........

[footyfan1]

Lars Bender or Bierofka. Heck, there are two kids on the U23 team that could come up that are just like Gebhart was 18 months ago, just as eager, just as fresh, just as good, but without the 18 months experience of Timo. Yes, it would be like starting over in the position, but hey.

OK. However, from where I sit that's wishful thinking.

I'll use one example. Schaeffler.

You built him up so much, I couldn't wait to see him out there.

And he is LOST. Totally and utterly lost. Overwhelmed. Not much better than Ku-SUCK-ovic.

What is a shame is that 1860 can't do any better.


I agree. However, what is the sense in taking a player in a key position who is 34? Seitz I can see, but Copado is old. I would rather go after someone who has potential to help longer term than go for a short term solution.

Sometimes a short-term solution is needed to find a better long-term solution.


Now, if Gebhart is on his way out, then Copado may be the best we can do for the short term to plug that hole. But if Gebhart does not go, why chase Copado?

This is a moot point anyhow now. Word is Copado is going back to Unterhaching.


I am not saying we do not need people. I am just saying we need to be smart about how we spend our precious cash. I don't think "any port in a storm" applies here. Kurz believes in the kids he has and is realistic that promotion is not possible right now. I truly think Kurz is taking a Reuter-like approach and trying to develop this team over a 3 year period. Remember, we have some aging players like Berhalter, Hoffman, and Schwarz. We need to replace THEM too. Why take on a Copado now? Besides, I could see him going to a 3.BL team rather than a 2.BL team....unless he went to a team like Koblenz or another that is in trouble in that position.

Dude, the lack of cash is the reason I suggested Copado. Free transfer, not a big salary. Perfect "bridge" to a better solution.

But as I said above, it doesn't matter because he's going back to Unterhaching.

I suspect you saw that though.


Again, the Rostock guys will cost transfer fees plus salaries.

Even with that, I thought Langen (along with Yelen) would be all right for 1860 to try to put Torben out to pasture, but I suspect Langen is going to wind up back in Dresden.

Yelen would be all right as a backup to Gebhart or as a replacement if Gebhart goes.


Here's some fun to think about: Schroth's contract is up in June and he has not played one game for 1860....not even a kick-about. Do we extend? That's 800k we could use elsewhere. Think of the $$ wasted on that move. Yet another Cerny/Tyce style insurance policy that never panned out.

If you do, it is at a minimum base salary with performance-based incentives. However, unless he can come back and show something in the second half of the season, I'd say goodbye. He can go to Unterhaching too.

[LoewenBoy]

I'll use one example. Schaeffler. You built him up so much, I couldn't wait to see him out there. And he is LOST. Totally and utterly lost. Overwhelmed. Not much better than Ku-SUCK-ovic.
I disagree. The kid is finding his role and doing fine. Has he scored? No. But, off the ball he bring FAR more than any other striker. One thing scouts look for is not only how well they do offensively, but defensively. If you watch him in isolation, this kid gets up and down the field the ENTIRE match. He is back covering midfield, in the box and then again back up front on attack. THAT is a characteristic any scout would love. Getting him to score I think anyone knows will come. Teaching that other stuff is MUCH harder.

I was just about to post about those guys. Rahn might be past it, but Yelen might be able to help in midfield even if Gebhardt goes.
great minds think alike. I think its amusing you think Rahn at 29 is "past it" but somehow Copado at 34 is not. given 1860's experience in purshasing has-been talent only to have their time at 1860 turn out to be some sort of "soon to retire players retirement fund" (think: Schorth, Cerny, Tyce, Agostino), it PAINS me to think of the wasted cash in the last 4 years on guys who never set one foot on the field.

I always thought Yelen was a very nice prospect, but didn't get the right coaching/leadership at Rostock. But from what I have read, they have been given permission to find new clubs, not outright released from their contracts. You know that means right?
You got it, TRANSFER FEES!!!
Damn you and your obvious logic!!!!! Why can't you just let people sit and enjoy the possibilities of getting someone before you kill their wet dream.:D

No, you're right. As much as I would like to get them we are cash-strapped and have zero chance of enticing them. But I don't think Copado is the answer either. Also, we are in another cycle where we have some serious talent about to be out of contract: Berhalter, Jungwirth, Thorandt, Benny and Danny Schwarz, Eberlein, Holebas, Burkhard, Ledgerwood, Baumgartlinger, Schaeffler and Schroth. That's a TON of players who are part of the current starting line up or, at least, sub sub status.

No, we cannot waste money.....we need to hold a fir number of these players if we can. I fear many will be lost. My bets?

Berhalter (extends another year)
Jungwirth (leaves for another 2.BL team)
Thorandt (picked up by FCA or another mid- top-table 2.BL team)
Benny Schwarz (goes to another 2.BL team, likely Aachen)
Danny Schwarz (extends...lovely)
Eberlein (leaves for another 2.BL team)
Holebas (extends)
Burkhard (not offered a contract with 1860)
Ledgerwood (goes to Fuerth or Aachen)
Baumgartlinger (extends)
Schaeffler (extends)
Schroth (dunno....hope they do not extend unless he actually plays)

[footyfan1]

I disagree. The kid is finding his role and doing fine. Has he scored? No. But, off the ball he bring FAR more than any other striker. One thing scouts look for is not only how well they do offensively, but defensively. If you watch him in isolation, this kid gets up and down the field the ENTIRE match. He is back covering midfield, in the box and then again back up front on attack. THAT is a characteristic any scout would love. Getting him to score I think anyone knows will come. Teaching that other stuff is MUCH harder.

Dude, I've been watching this kid to see what excited you so. I see nothing in the way of progress. You think I don't know how to watch a player's total game? Man please don't lay that stuff on me just because I don't agree with you.

I think he has all the tools, but I don't see the progress. It's not just scoring, it's his entire game. He's not lacking effort, just instinctivness. That will probably come, but just because a player is young, it doesn't mean instinctivness will always come.

Again, I can see the potential, but I don't see that he's getting the way forward. I will love to write to you in a year or two and say, "Man, I was totally wrong", but right now, I just don't see him showing much progress.

It's my opinion, I'm not looking for your agreement.


great minds think alike. I think its amusing you think Rahn at 29 is "past it" but somehow Copado at 34 is not.

Garry, you are putting too much stock in simple numbers.

Copado may be five years older than Rahn, but he's well-rested this season and he plays a position where 1860 needs help.

Just because someone is younger, it doesn't mean he's going to be more useful.

This is about more than simple age man. Come on.

Have you seen Rahn play the last few seasons?? He's been crap. He doesn't show that he's going to be anything but crap. He's not the same guy who earned those few Germany caps.

Another thing, unless you want Rahn to be an expensive bench warmer, who are you going to bench for Rahn? Bierofka? One of the Benders?? Benny Schwarz?? Rahn is a guy who plays on the left side. He can't do anything else. 1860 doesn't need help on the left side anywhere near as much as 1860 needs help in the center.

Personally, I think Rahn needs to go back to St. Pauli. If there is anywhere he has a chance of finding himself and his game again, it is there.


given 1860's experience in purshasing has-been talent only to have their time at 1860 turn out to be some sort of "soon to retire players retirement fund" (think: Schorth, Cerny, Tyce, Agostino), it PAINS me to think of the wasted cash in the last 4 years on guys who never set one foot on the field.

Garry, that's those guys. This guy has been training all season with the Bundesliga leaders.
Just because the "old 1860 legacy guys" the fans wanted all broke down, doesn't mean this guy will.


Damn you and your obvious logic!!!!! Why can't you just let people sit and enjoy the possibilities of getting someone before you kill their wet dream.:D

When you use the jist of your wet dream to shoot down what is nothing but a friendly suggestion from me, yes, I'll point out that your dream is just that. A dream. I'm sorry. I know I'm too serious about this stuff much of the time.

I'm just afraid too many teams miss out on someone who could help them because they want something they can't get.

No, you're right. As much as I would like to get them we are cash-strapped and have zero chance of enticing them. But I don't think Copado is the answer either.

When did I ever say Copado "the answer"?? I said he can HELP. Even if it is just for a year or two to give the club time to make a bit more money and time either develop or find the "answer."

But as I said before, the point is moot. Copado is almost certainly going back to Unterhaching.


Also, we are in another cycle where we have some serious talent about to be out of contract: Berhalter, Jungwirth, Thorandt, Benny and Danny Schwarz, Eberlein, Holebas, Burkhard, Ledgerwood, Baumgartlinger, Schaeffler and Schroth. That's a TON of players who are part of the current starting line up or, at least, sub sub status.

No, we cannot waste money.....

As far as I'm concerned, keeping D. Schwarz and/or Schroth would be wasting money.


we need to hold a fir number of these players if we can. I fear many will be lost. My bets?[

Berhalter (extends another year)
Jungwirth (leaves for another 2.BL team)
Thorandt (picked up by FCA or another mid- top-table 2.BL team)
Benny Schwarz (goes to another 2.BL team, likely Aachen)
Danny Schwarz (extends...lovely)
Eberlein (leaves for another 2.BL team)
Holebas (extends)
Burkhard (not offered a contract with 1860)
Ledgerwood (goes to Fuerth or Aachen)
Baumgartlinger (extends)
Schaeffler (extends)
Schroth (dunno....hope they do not extend unless he actually plays)


Agree on Gregg, Thorandt, Holebas, Burkhard, Baumgartlinger, Schaeffler and Schroth

If it were me, B. Schwarz is one of the players who I would put priority on keeping. I'd offer D. Schwarz a training job that he can take or be shown the door. I would do my best to keep Ledgerwood around.

Of course, that's my thinking. I don't know what Reuter will do. I don't know what kind of finances he will have at his disposal.

[LoewenBoy]

On Schaeffler: Not trying to get you to agree with me and I know you see what I do. but as you have pointed out in the past, who the hell else do we have? DiSalvo? Holebas? I think Kurz is right to keep playing this kid. I have seen him play the U23 and when he finally hits the form that I know he will, he will become a great striker. Not a Klose or anything like that, but a solid, long career goal-scorere like a Martin Max. I just hope he does it with 1860.

On Benny S: Totally agree with you, I think 1860 busts a hump to sign him. I think his recent injuries are the only thing keeping other teams from grabbing him. What scares me is, normally 1860 signals their intention to sign new talent in Nov. Typically if they wait until after the winter it means they are leaving. In fact, I cannot recall a single young player in the last 6 years that went into their contract year unsigned and still signed with us.

On Ledgerwood: Agree again. But, like Benny, I think other teams will snap him up and he will likely hold off on a contract extension with 1860 until he sees all the cards in play.

On Schroth/Danny: Again, agree. They would be a waste of cash, as would to extend Hoffmann. But this is why the Haas potential makes sense. Roessl is just not seeing any growth and Krauss will want to be on the bench next year for the profis.

On Copado: I think it is a tough sell to take a 34 year old midfielder. I don't doubt he may help, but I think we need to focus on better, longer-term investments in that position. Really makes me crazier about the whole Goektan issue. Oh well.

On 1860 as a whole: Looking back over the last few years, I really cannot believe how up and down this club has been....really more than any other. Finances, scandals, etc., it is just too much. I get the coaches/players leaving...that is part and parcel of football. But add in the other stuff and it is no wonder my hair has fallen out.

[footyfan1]

On Schaeffler: Not trying to get you to agree with me and I know you see what I do. but as you have pointed out in the past, who the hell else do we have? DiSalvo? Holebas? I think Kurz is right to keep playing this kid.

I never said Kurz was wrong to keep playing the kid. I just told you that right now, I don't see the future for him that you do.

I said before that the sad part is 1860 can't really do any better.


I have seen him play the U23 and when he finally hits the form that I know he will, he will become a great striker. Not a Klose or anything like that, but a solid, long career goal-scorere like a Martin Max. I just hope he does it with 1860.

Hmmmmm..... Sounds like another 1860 striker I know. Some kid named Lauth everyone thought was going to be the next "Great One...."

We don't "know" what form any of these kids will hit man. Everyone thought Lauth would be great. He fooled everyone for a couple of seasons and then his faults showed.

A season and a half ago, we were hyping the hell out of Nicky Adler. What happened there??

Looking at the other club in the city, people were talking "Gerd Muller-esque" numbers when they bought Podolski.

He was about as much of a "sure thing" as you can get.

It didn't happen.

We don't "know" anything with these kids man.

I don't blame you for "hoping" though.......



On Benny S: Totally agree with you, I think 1860 busts a hump to sign him. I think his recent injuries are the only thing keeping other teams from grabbing him. What scares me is, normally 1860 signals their intention to sign new talent in Nov. Typically if they wait until after the winter it means they are leaving. In fact, I cannot recall a single young player in the last 6 years that went into their contract year unsigned and still signed with us.

I asked around about him back when I was trying to get BVB to look that way. Interest in him wasn't as deep as you seem to think even before he got injured. However, if I were Reuter, again, I would make signing this kid a priority.


On Ledgerwood: Agree again. But, like Benny, I think other teams will snap him up and he will likely hold off on a contract extension with 1860 until he sees all the cards in play.

Same thing here. There is some interest in him, but it isn't as deep as you seem to think. I believe '60 has a good chance of holding on to him. However, I think a good show of faith to this kid would be to drop D. Schwarz.


On Schroth/Danny: Again, agree. They would be a waste of cash, as would to extend Hoffmann. But this is why the Haas potential makes sense. Roessl is just not seeing any growth and Krauss will want to be on the bench next year for the profis.

Garry, do you mean 1860 just signing Haas or Haas as part of a swap for Gebhart?

If you mean Haas as part of a swap for Gebhart, not extending Hoffmann because you would get Haas as part of the swap still doesn't make sense.

What I'm saying is Haas as part of a swap for Gebhart just does not make any sense.

1860 can come to an agreement with Haas for next season in January and he'd join on a free transfer. Why make a guy you can get for free for next season part of a swap for your most valuable asset??? That's like giving him away.

If 1860 sends Gebhart to Hoffenheim, 1860 had better get CASH! They can make a separate deal with Haas to move on a free.

But can 1860 tell Haas he'll be given a fair chance to beat out Tschauner?

But if 1860 feels they must do a swap with Hoffenheim for Gebhart, I'd ask them for Salim Teber. 27 years old, plays the same position as Gebhart and has a shitload of experience.


On Copado: I think it is a tough sell to take a 34 year old midfielder. I don't doubt he may help, but I think we need to focus on better, longer-term investments in that position. Really makes me crazier about the whole Goektan issue. Oh well.

A tough sell to who? You? The fans who clamored for the broken down players you wrote about before??

Garry, you keep repeating the same stuff here.

Look. The fact of the matter is this. The players you keep DREAMING about 1860 getting? It ain't gonna happen easily or at all man. Why? Because the players you seem to be dreaming about 1860 getting all will get better deals elsewhere.

What I said was this guy Copado could have helped for a year or two until 1860 either develops or finds their central midfield solution.

You talked about "wasting money?" Dude, the guy comes on a free. He can't demand a huge salary. He's about to go back to Unterhaching man! F#cking Unterhaching!

How much could he cost???!!

You seem to be royally spooked by the guy's age. If the guy has two years left to give, while 1860 either develops or finds their solution, then why not?

All real evidence says this guy can still play at the 2nd Bundesliga level.

You are simply worried about the wrong numbers.

You know what numbers SHOULD matter to you here?

10 goals, 4 assists in 32 appearances.

1 goal, 0 assists in 6 appearances.

You know what numbers those are??

The first ones are Copado's stats for Hoffenheim in the 2nd Bundesliga last season.

The second ones are Copado's stats for Hoffenheim in the 1st Bundesliga this season.

Yes, I know 1860 isn't Hoffenheim, but someone who can't play isn't going to put up 10 and 4 in the 2nd Bundesliga, I don't care who he plays for.

Remember, Copado got most of his time last season when Carlos Eduardo was out and he still played behind Selim Teber.

I don't know. I guess you think one year and 6 1st Bundesliga appearances took away Copado's ability to possibly put up similar numbers to his last 2nd Bundesliga season again??

The difference between this guy and the broken down old 1860 players you keep wanting to compare him to?

Copado produced in the 2nd Bundesliga just last season. He's made six 1st Bundesliga appearances this season.

Copado wouldn't be coming to you broken down like Schroth did.

Oh, by the way, that one goal in six appearances for Hoffenheim this season?

That's one more goal than BENJAMIN LAUTH had in 21 appearances for Hannover last season.

But yeah, OK, I get it.

1860 doesn't need Copado's kind of help because he doesn't meet some silly age requirement.

That everything points to his still being able to produce at the 2nd Bundesliga level doesn't matter because the guy is simply too old for 1860......

I hope Reuter doesn't think that way. Copado won't be joining 1860, but if there is another older player who becomes available and can still produce at the 2nd Bundesliga level, I'd sure hate to see him get turned away because he's "too old."

Then again, I doubt Reuter would think that way, especially as he himself had three more productive seasons in the 1st Bundesliga for BVB after he suffered a serious knee injury at the age of 34. He wasn't the same as before, but he was still productive.

And by the way, that first year Reuter was back was our last Bundesliga title winning season. Yes, a 35 year old coming off a serious knee injury captained us to that title. He made 28 appearances too.

I'm happy we didn't feel he was "too old."

Like I told you before, 1860 can't afford to be picky. I don't know why you seem to think they can be.

I don't see how 1860 can turn up their noses at a guy who produced in the 2nd Bundesliga just last season at a position they need help at because he's older than they'd like him to be.

I can't see how you're doing it either.

But that's OK. Keep turning up your noses at veterans who can still produce, keep on playing kids who might produce sometime, and the fans just might get their Gruenwalderstadion wish.

I can't see where signing this guy for two season can hurt. Even if Gebhart stays, he's got a mentor and solid backup then......

But it doesn't matter. Again, Copado seems to be headed back to Unterhaching. If Gebhart goes, I hope 1860 finds a good young player or gets Teber to replace him.

If not.........



On 1860 as a whole: Looking back over the last few years, I really cannot believe how up and down this club has been....really more than any other. Finances, scandals, etc., it is just too much. I get the coaches/players leaving...that is part and parcel of football. But add in the other stuff and it is no wonder my hair has fallen out.

1860 is a mess. That's nothing new. We've said often enough that the fact this club is still standing is a testament to the job done by Reuter and Ziffzer in the past year or two.

[LoewenBoy]

Like I told you before, 1860 can't afford to be picky. I don't know why you seem to think they can be.
Never said we should be. But we do not need to take any scrap that falls off the table either. I did not say Copado would not help. I never said his numbers were not good. I never said he could not produce. I simply said we should focus on a longer term solution and avoid bringing on someone older when we might be able to get someone just as good, who is younger, for a decent price. Don't put words in my mouth.

[footyfan1]

Never said we should be. But we do not need to take any scrap that falls off the table either. I did not say Copado would not help. I never said his numbers were not good. I never said he could not produce. I simply said we should focus on a longer term solution and avoid bringing on someone older when we might be able to get someone just as good, who is younger, for a decent price. Don't put words in my mouth.

Like who?? You write as if this player is just going to drop out of the sky.

Any young player who can produce 10 and 4 in the 2nd Bundesliga is going to be bought by clubs with more money than 1860.

Is there an another amateur kid coming up soon? Serious question.

Sooner or later, 1860 is going to have to find some central midfield production, or as I said, the fans may just get that Gruenwalderstadion wish in the near future.

Damn. That freakin' Goektan thing was a serious body blow......... :mad:

[LoewenBoy]

Like who?? You write as if this player is just going to drop out of the sky.
No I am not. I know darn well that playrs that are decent, cost nothing and fit what Kurz needs are few and far between. But I am aslo realistic that we do not need to take just ANY player because they are free.


Any young player who can produce 10 and 4 in the 2nd Bundesliga is going to be bought by clubs with more money than 1860.
I totally agree. BUT, I cannot help but think there are some late twenty-something has-beens or never-weres out there who are still worth a darn, free (or cheap) and looking for a second chance. Hell, I would prefer that 1860 go after a longer term deal with Baier, but right now FCA seems on a helluva run and he would be mad to swtich. Time to get him was two months ago.


Is there an another amateur kid coming up soon? Serious question.

Yeah, there are several that are Gerhart/Bender quality:

Hosiner: Striker, 19, good kid and nose for goal. Because of the first team injury woes the U23 side has been depleted and does not have a very good record. Despite that the kid has played well and created his own chances.
Tausendpfund: Defender, 21. Not burning up the field but just a good, young solid kid. Not Schwarz quality but more a quiet stahlwart in the back.
Schick: Another 20 year old defender. Much like Tausendpfund he is a quiet, strong defender.
Kaiser: 19 year-old striker. Very fast but a bit of a hot head (1 red). Good ideas but often too fast for anyone to catch up with him to take advantage of his ideas.
there are, of course, the usual suspects such as Burkhard, Eberlein, Baumgartlinger, and Jungwirth. But the kids above are not yet at the level of these guys....but give them another half season or so.


Sooner or later, 1860 is going to have to find some central midfield production, or as I said, the fans may just get that Gruenwalderstadion wish in the near future. Damn. That freakin' Goektan thing was a serious body blow......... :mad:
We have TWO big areas: attacking midfield and defense. If you look at defense we are losing Berhalter, Hofmann and possibly Thorandt over the next few years or sooner. At some point this younger guard needs to step in and play. I hope Eberlein and Jungwirth will get a chance to show what they can do.

[squidward123]

question : if gebhart leaves why dont 1860 loan kroos?

[LoewenBoy]

question : if gebhart leaves why dont 1860 loan kroos?
Squiddy, 1860 has literally zero cash. Oh they can make payroll and they have saved some money in salary with Goektan having left, but they cannot afford much; certainly no transfer fees or anything like that. Plus, I think Kroos would rather sit at Bayern than play at 1860....but that's just my guess.

I trust Reuter to do the right thing. He has not screwed the club up ever and has only made us stronger. Some fans don't like hime because they want action now. Reuter's approach is to make us financially solid, live within out means, begin saving for a rainy day and make money off of our young talent when possible. I will bet his strategy for 2009 is to place high in the DFB cup, hope for a good table position and resign a few key, young players (Ledgerwood, Schwarz, Schaeffler) and retain other key positions. Kurz has the team structure down....we just need to get healthy and execute. Rueckrunde should tell if 1860 is a player or pretender.

[squidward123]

Squiddy, 1860 has literally zero cash. Oh they can make payroll and they have saved some money in salary with Goektan having left, but they cannot afford much; certainly no transfer fees or anything like that. Plus, I think Kroos would rather sit at Bayern than play at 1860....but that's just my guess.

i think bayern may be generous in taking the large part of his wages here. I mean kroos gets regular football, and he's in town. And also, I can't see how kroos wouldn't like this? It's no hassle for him to play for 1860 because its in the same city same stadium.

[footyfan1]

No I am not. I know darn well that playrs that are decent, cost nothing and fit what Kurz needs are few and far between. But I am aslo realistic that we do not need to take just ANY player because they are free.

The guy wasn't "any player". You're talking about a guy who posted 10 and 4 in the 2nd Bundesliga just last season.

The only player to do the same (actually 10 and 3) for Sechzig last season?

Goektan. Like I said, this crap with him was a body blow to this 1860 team. :mad:

I think Gebhart will reach and possibly surpass those numbers if he stays and isn't injured. But if he doesn't stay or gets hurt, what then???

Neither Bender has shown any potential near that sort offensively.



I totally agree. BUT, I cannot help but think there are some late twenty-something has-beens or never-weres out there who are still worth a darn, free (or cheap) and looking for a second chance.

You're that hung up on age that you are willing to put aside an older player who has produced and evidence shows he more than likely still can for the HOPE that a younger one will fall into your lap??

OK. Your opinion. I get that, I just don't get the opinion and I realize I don't have to.


Hell, I would prefer that 1860 go after a longer term deal with Baier, but right now FCA seems on a helluva run and he would be mad to swtich. Time to get him was two months ago.

Baier?? What are you talking about? 1860 has no shot at him.

Baier wasn't sold to Augsburg, he was loaned there. After this season, his ass is going back to Wolfsburg to fight with Misimovic, Hasebe and Adlung (maybe not Adlung as the "tz" article said 1860 might be interested in taking him on loan) for a spot on the 1st Bundesliga team.

Baier's contract with Wolfsburg is good through the 2009-2010 season. And if he keeps up what he's been doing in Augsburg and refuses to extend in Wolfsburg, Magath won't have a problem finding a 1st Bundesliga team to sell Baier to.

He's not going to be like BVB with Haessler and do 1860 a favor just because he can. Magath is not nice like us. ;)

Magath is going to get the max amount he can for Baier if he decides to sell him.

Hell, if BVB doesn't extend Nuri Sahin, Dortmund could even be Baier's next destination......

I don't see this kid back with 1860 anytime soon.

And if I'm not mistaken, he told Premiere the same thing after the two clubs met earlier in the season.


Yeah, there are several that are Gerhart/Bender quality:

Hosiner: Striker, 19, good kid and nose for goal. Because of the first team injury woes the U23 side has been depleted and does not have a very good record. Despite that the kid has played well and created his own chances.
Tausendpfund: Defender, 21. Not burning up the field but just a good, young solid kid. Not Schwarz quality but more a quiet stahlwart in the back.
Schick: Another 20 year old defender. Much like Tausendpfund he is a quiet, strong defender.
Kaiser: 19 year-old striker. Very fast but a bit of a hot head (1 red). Good ideas but often too fast for anyone to catch up with him to take advantage of his ideas.
there are, of course, the usual suspects such as Burkhard, Eberlein, Baumgartlinger, and Jungwirth. But the kids above are not yet at the level of these guys....but give them another half season or so.

Dude, I should have been more specific. I meant if you guys had a up and coming kid for central midfield.

I'm guessing from your Baier comments and this list that 1860 doesn't have one......


We have TWO big areas: attacking midfield and defense. If you look at defense we are losing Berhalter, Hofmann and possibly Thorandt over the next few years or sooner. At some point this younger guard needs to step in and play. I hope Eberlein and Jungwirth will get a chance to show what they can do.

I get that Garry, but lack of production from that central (attacking) midfield spot is what's killing 1860 right now.

That's where 1860 desperately needs help right now.

Especially if Gebhart is sold or traded in January.

The defense and goalkeeping has been stellar this season. I'm happy Tschauner seems to be proving me wrong about him.

However, they can't carry the team if the offense doesn't produce squat or put enough pressure on other teams to keep the defense from being constantly challenged.

This 1860 team isn't missing much. Mostly offensive threats. I know Bierofka can help when he's 100% again. And I hope that's enough.

Other than that, while we vehemently disagree on it, I still believe 1860 is missing a chance to upgrade immediately at low cost and low risk. If the guy had done nothing last season or was coming off major injury, I could understand your opinion. Right now, I just don't. And again, I know I don't have to.

I wish them good luck finding that young, long-term solution. They're gonna need it.

I just hope they don't let Gebhart go in January. Or if they do that swap with Hoffenheim, they get Teber in return and don't take a player they can sign on a free for next season in January.......

[footyfan1]

i think bayern may be generous in taking the large part of his wages here. I mean kroos gets regular football, and he's in town. And also, I can't see how kroos wouldn't like this? It's no hassle for him to play for 1860 because its in the same city same stadium.

Squid. Did you not pay any attention to anything posted in the Bayern forum when I brought up this same plan??

It is funny that almost right after we had that discussion, Bayern made it clear they weren't looking to loan out Kroos, but if they did, they would want it to be to someone playing at the same level of football.

They won't loan him to any 2nd Bundesliga team and they even ruled out a loan to Karlsruhe because while they didn't say the words, they think he can learn and progress more training with them and playing as much as they can play him than he would learn at KSC.

Come on man. You saw all that shit.

Do you really need to talk about Toni Kroos so badly that you'll drop his name anywhere?? :rolleyes:

[LoewenBoy]

Other than that, while we vehemently disagree on it, I still believe 1860 is missing a chance to upgrade immediately at low cost and low risk. If the guy had done nothing last season or was coming off major injury, I could understand your opinion. Right now, I just don't. And again, I know I don't have to.
With limited money and many current starters and super-subs' contracts coming up in June, just how the hell are we supposed to chase a guy like Copado? What message does that send to the guys your are trying to keep? We need to secure who we have and THEN go get someone else. Reuter knows at least that much.

[squidward123]

Squid. Did you not pay any attention to anything posted in the Bayern forum when I brought up this same plan??

It is funny that almost right after we had that discussion, Bayern made it clear they weren't looking to loan out Kroos, but if they did, they would want it to be to someone playing at the same level of football.

They won't loan him to any 2nd Bundesliga team and they even ruled out a loan to Karlsruhe because while they didn't say the words, they think he can learn and progress more training with them and playing as much as they can play him than he would learn at KSC.

Come on man. You saw all that shit.

Do you really need to talk about Toni Kroos so badly that you'll drop his name anywhere?? :rolleyes:

no, to be completely honest i can't remember the part about the loan move to 1860 in the bayern forum...my bad

[footyfan1]

With limited money and many current starters and super-subs' contracts coming up in June, just how the hell are we supposed to chase a guy like Copado? What message does that send to the guys your are trying to keep? We need to secure who we have and THEN go get someone else. Reuter knows at least that much.

It says, "We're trying to get you guys everything you need to win." It's not like Copado would be REPLACING any of them and you and I both know 1860 is not going to keep all of those guys. You know it, but maybe you don't want to admit it.

[LoewenBoy]

It says, "We're trying to get you guys everything you need to win." It's not like Copado would be REPLACING any of them and you and I both know 1860 is not going to keep all of those guys. You know it, but maybe you don't want to admit it.
Keith, if 1860 has, say 3 million with which to sign all players about to be out of contract AND to sign/pay any new talent, does it not stand to reason that ANY money spent on Copado is money NOT spent on the other guys?

I mean, if they spend 500k on Copado, that only leaves them $2.5m to sign all the other guys. That may or may not be enough. I think Reuter is smart and knows you take care of your current team first, THEN go after someone new IF you have the $$$$.