The rise of the small clubs - a new era in Europe?

[johan neeskens]

Hull are doing great in England, Hoffenheim are league leaders in Germany, we've had four different league leaders in the Netherlands so far this season with the highest ranked traditional top 3 club (Ajax) currently only in sixth place.

Is this a trend or will we see the same old clubs finish top? Are the traditional big clubs getting complacent?

[Karloski]

Hull are doing great in England, Hoffenheim are league leaders in Germany, we've had four different league leaders in the Netherlands so far this season with the highest ranked traditional top 3 club (Ajax) currently only in sixth place.

Is this a trend or will we see the same old clubs finish top? Are the traditional big clubs getting complacent?

I can't speak for all the leagues, but its not a new trend for a promoted club in the Premier League to have a fantastic debut season. Hull will probably finish top half of the table, but the real test for them will be next season.

I would presume it will be similar stories across the leagues, its fine having one or two great seasons, but with the money of the larger (more established) clubs, they are always going to struggle to keep their players and thus find it difficult to be consitently challenging for honours.

[johan neeskens]

I can't speak for all the leagues, but its not a new trend for a promoted club in the Premier League to have a fantastic debut season. Hull will probably finish top half of the table, but the real test for them will be next season.

I would presume it will be similar stories across the leagues, its fine having one or two great seasons, but with the money of the larger (more established) clubs, they are always going to struggle to keep their players and thus find it difficult to be consitently challenging for honours.

Well in Hoffenheim's case, they DO have a lot of money thanks to their new sugardaddy. I'm sure Hull aren't exactly dirt poor either by the way, not to European standards in any case. What interests me in that respect also is that it seems like Europe's smaller clubs are getting more imaginative than the traditional big clubs. The last group still largely depend on forking out heaps of money for established superstars, while the likes of Hoffenheim, Hull and e.g. Heerenveen and NAC in Holland have to depend on discovering and signing talent before everybody else does. Hence my question about big clubs getting complacent. They have so much money that they can't be bothered anymore about being creative.

I pretty much agree that the traditional big clubs will probably finish top again come the end of the season, but I do think there is a gradual change going on, and in five years time we'll see new top clubs emerging.

[Karloski]

Well in Hoffenheim's case, they DO have a lot of money thanks to their new sugardaddy.

Well, if he sticks around there may be a case for hierarchy transition. Time will tell.

I'm sure Hull aren't exactly dirt poor either by the way, not to European standards in any case.

They're poor by Premier league standards. Believe me, any of their outstanding talent this year will have their heads turned by the more 'fahionable clubs' once the offers start coming in.

What interests me in that respect also is that it seems like Europe's smaller clubs are getting more imaginative than the traditional big clubs. The last group still largely depend on forking out heaps of money for established superstars, while the likes of Hoffenheim, Hull and e.g. Heerenveen and NAC in Holland have to depend on discovering and signing talent before everybody else does. Hence my question about big clubs getting complacent. They have so much money that they can't be bothered anymore about being creative.

I dont believe thats true. Smaller (less well off) clubs have always had to rely on discovering talent or nurturing their own.

As for larger clubs getting complacent, I dont believe thats true in the PL. The mini league at the top of the table has meant they have to try and improve each year (creatively and in signing youth talent). They probably do occasionally underestimate others in the league, but they soon pick it up once they need to.

I'm not sure about the likes of Ajax and B Munich, but I presume their prestige and history alone will allow them to rise from what ever ashes they burn into this season.

[johan neeskens]

Well, if he sticks around there may be a case for hierarchy transition. Time will tell.



They're poor by Premier league standards. Believe me, any of their outstanding talent this year will have their heads turned by the more 'fahionable clubs' once the offers start coming in.



I dont believe thats true. Smaller (less well off) clubs have always had to rely on discovering talent or nurturing their own.

As for larger clubs getting complacent, I dont believe thats true in the PL. The mini league at the top of the table has meant they have to try and improve each year (creatively and in signing youth talent). They probably do occasionally underestimate others in the league, but they soon pick it up once they need to.

I'm not sure about the likes of Ajax and B Munich, but I presume their prestige and history alone will allow them to rise from what ever ashes they burn into this season.

The situation in each league is different but it is at least remarkable that in three European leagues, small clubs are doing well. I know what's happening in Holland (financial gap between top 3 and the rest is narrowing, said top 3 have hit financial ceiling whereas the rest still has room to increase revenues), I'm just not sure about the other leagues, perhaps there's a German poster about?

What's happening at Ajax is a bit of a shame in general as they've turned into a buying club. Which can't be good for Dutch football in general either in the long term.

["Eisenfuß" Eilts]

The last group still largely depend on forking out heaps of money for established superstars, while the likes of Hoffenheim, Hull and e.g. Heerenveen and NAC in Holland have to depend on discovering and signing talent before everybody else does.

Hoffenheim sets on young talent and improve them in their training camp
(invested more than 150 million € in infrastructure in the last 5 years).
But the talents they get have a high quality, this summer they had a transfer
deficit of more than 10 million € and last season about 19 million €.
Third highest deficit behind Bayern and Wolfsburg in the last 2 seasons.

So i wouldn´t call them a small spender, who need luck on transfer market.
But i must admit, that their sucess is not simply money.
The players really fit into the coachs system and they play good
offensive football.

[GriffinGunner]

As long as the best players and managers continue to seek the most money they'll always gravitate towards the larger clubs, but I think we're seeing a mini-rebound of the effect of technology and investments in facilities that tells players and managers it's okay to be a part of smaller clubs. Hull may lack the size and automatic exposure of, say, ManU, but their facilities are very nice and people can track their performances in some way, shape or form from anywhere across the globe. Now that the pay has grown so high so quickly, players are finding they can make a decent living even without playing for ManU, in Europe or for their national side. Thus, it's capable for a quality side to come together outside of the bigger clubs.

Similarly fans are finding the appeal of local sides once again, likely aided by the stadium boom of the past 20 years. Yes, as a whole they likely prefer seeing the bigger names clash on TV, but they can easily enjoy and find respect in supporting their own club, no matter how small, provided they see progression and direction from the ownership. Hull's a great example of this, as are many of the German clubs basking in the glory of their newfound stadium infrstructure.

[johan neeskens]

Another development that's going on in Holland (and I believe also in England) is that smaller clubs take the lead in community work. They're not just a club, they're very much part of the community and take part in all sorts of projects in close cooperation with the municipality. My own club has, as part of its policy, as its main target not to make money or to reach European football or win the league, but to be a valued member of the local community.

Strangely, none of the big Dutch clubs take part in any of that and I think they're missing out on building a fanbase for the future.

[SportBoy333]

In France, Toulouse are over achieving and are in the top 3 at the moment. They dont have a lot of money and didnt spend a lot this summer and they sold their best player. I expect them to fade eventually and the big clubs with the most talent Lyon, Bordeaux, and Marseille will probably finish in the top 3. In France there are always lower budget teams who surprise a lot and do well.

[RickChelsea]

Hull are just doing a Reading, do good in your first year, get relegated the next. But i would seriously like to see them in Europe though just about unlikely to happen, it would be good to see though.

[squidward123]

Well, if he sticks around there may be a case for hierarchy transition. Time will tell.

he is the patron not the owner (not allowed in germany) or "sugar daddy" in the abramovich sense.

hopp was a player at hoffenheim decades ago and since he became rich has been improving the club's facilities and youth work for 2 decades and they eventually gained promotion. Till a couple of years ago 90% of their team was from the area.

basically he's "family" to the club so he's not going anywhere.
legally he's not the owner anyway so he can sit home and do nothing even if he wanted to and still give them money.

[EvanJ]

In 2005-2006 Wigan Athletic got off to a good start in their first year in the EPL and finished 10th with 51 points. From their third through their eleventh game they went undefeated with 8 wins and 1 draw. Reading's 8th place finish in 2006-2007 with 55 points was a little better than Wigan Athletic's the previous year. Since then, Wigan Athletic has done bad but stayed up. In 2006-2007 they were the bottom team not relegated. They had an identical record to Sheffield United, who were relegated with a goal differential 1 worse than Wigan Athletic's.

[glennaldo_sf]

Didn't Kaiserslauten win the Bundesliga their first year back from the second division some time ago? Jesus.. I think that was 10 years ago :eek: My how time flies when you're a footy fan!

I can't say anything has changed in England... same big 4 in the big 4 places... Hull's run nothing exceptional - seen it so many times before... Charlton, Bolton, Ipswich, Reading, Wigan, etc. Guess they're special because it's their first ever season in the top flight maybe.

Maybe in Holland things are changing.. anything other than PSV walking away with the title is a change there.

[Borussia]

Didn't Kaiserslauten win the Bundesliga their first year back from the second division some time ago? Jesus.. I think that was 10 years ago :eek:


Yep. One of the biggest sensations in soccer (Otto Rehhagel is famous for such things - look at Greece 2004)!


Btw: Guess which small club (at that time) once "conquered" Germany & Europe in the 70's without the help of a billionaire like Mr. Hopp but with mostly very talented youth players (which became famous in the whole world) from the own (rather small) city & region, playing an impressive offensive style?

[glennaldo_sf]

Yep. One of the biggest sensations in soccer (Otto Rehhagel is famous for such things - look at Greece 2004)!


Btw: Guess which small club (at that time) once "conquered" Germany & Europe in the 70's without the help of a billionaire like Mr. Hopp but with mostly very talented youth players (which became famous in the whole world) from the own (rather small) city & region, playing an impressive offensive style?

Hmm .... let me guess... Hamburg? Stuttgart? Cottbus? Hannover 96? Eintrecht Frankfurt?... geeze, I don't know... maybe I'll go ask some of those Michael Bradley fans in the yanks abroad forum.. maybe they can give me some clues. :p

[AFCA]

Another development that's going on in Holland (and I believe also in England) is that smaller clubs take the lead in community work. They're not just a club, they're very much part of the community and take part in all sorts of projects in close cooperation with the municipality. My own club has, as part of its policy, as its main target not to make money or to reach European football or win the league, but to be a valued member of the local community.

Strangely, none of the big Dutch clubs take part in any of that and I think they're missing out on building a fanbase for the future.

I have always wondered why Ajax aren't marketing themselves to the youth of today playing football on the squares and streets: the (mostly) immigrant youth in the outskirts of town who have by now made name for themselves internationally with street football.

There's a lot of good to be done and a lot to be gained for Ajax and the city.

The bad thing is that it doesn't surprise me at all. So-called businessmen :rolleyes:

[johan neeskens]

I have always wondered why Ajax aren't marketing themselves to the youth of today playing football on the squares and streets: the (mostly) immigrant youth in the outskirts of town who have by now made name for themselves internationally with street football.

There's a lot of good to be done and a lot to be gained for Ajax and the city.

The bad thing is that it doesn't surprise me at all. So-called businessmen :rolleyes:

Its got be infuriating for old school Ajax fans that the club management are ignoring the socio-cultural role the club has in Amsterdam. Overall I think Ajax aren't making anywhere near as much of their potential as they could. The irony being that this trend of smaller clubs becoming more strongly connected to their community is done mostly not for charity but for business reasons. It's no longer profitable for a club to generate revenues one day a week on match day. You need to increase the revenue made per fan, and the only way you can do that is by attracting fans to the club premises with facilities and services that outside of football. So when the club goes to help projects in the city's deprived areas, they're growing the next generation of fans. And by operating all services within the stadium, they're increasing revenue per season ticket holder. So what the big clubs in Holland are doing is not just disrepecting their roots, but also stupid from a business perspective! I really do think Ajax and Feyenoord have become complacent. Which is bad for their fans, but good for the Dutch league overall. On that note, congrats on the win!

[RichardL]

Another development that's going on in Holland (and I believe also in England) is that smaller clubs take the lead in community work. They're not just a club, they're very much part of the community and take part in all sorts of projects in close cooperation with the municipality. My own club has, as part of its policy, as its main target not to make money or to reach European football or win the league, but to be a valued member of the local community.

Strangely, none of the big Dutch clubs take part in any of that and I think they're missing out on building a fanbase for the future.

I'd say it's simply a case that Twente fear losing young fans from in and around Enschede to the likes of Ajax. Ajax don't have quite the same fear losing young fans from in an around Amsterdam to Twente. When you have a few million fans, you can afford a touch of complacency. When you have maybe 100,000 or so, you can't.

[johan neeskens]

I'd say it's simply a case that Twente fear losing young fans from in and around Enschede to the likes of Ajax. Ajax don't have quite the same fear losing young fans from in an around Amsterdam to Twente. When you have a few million fans, you can afford a touch of complacency. When you have maybe 100,000 or so, you can't.


Teehee I'm sorry but that demonstrates that you don't really know Twente and its fanbase - this isn't England you know, where ManU is widely supported in London. You won't find a lot of Ajax shirts being worn outside of the west of the country. Wearing an Ajax shirt in my town is like serving Heineken rather than our local Grolsch at a birthday party - you will be frowned upon. There is plenty of local support. Enschede is a city of 150,000 people that always sells out its 24,000 capacity stadium and that has thousands on its season ticket waiting list. Ajax has a 50,000 capacity stadium and Amsterdam has a population of about a million yet their stadium rarely sells out. Another example is Heerenveen, that has a stadium with a capacity outnumbering its population. Provincial clubs are hot in Holland while the big clubs are in decline. If you could read Dutch I´d refer you to the dozens of articles that have been written about it in the Dutch media.

[The Jitty Slitter]

Hull are just doing a Reading, do good in your first year, get relegated the next. But i would seriously like to see them in Europe though just about unlikely to happen, it would be good to see though.

Decision Technologies had a great analysis re the Reading phenomenon.

It isn't a phenomenon at all, it's what's called survivor bias.