Noel Kenny - political move or not

[GlennAA11]

Obviously I don't have the benefit of the tape, and they don't show replays of everything in the stadium. If you say Pope tripped Landon I have no reason to disbelieve you. But the way he fell so dramatically made it look like a total dive. Maybe his over-embellishment fooled the referee into thinking it was a dive. Interestingly the restart was a DC direct kick which seemed rather odd to me at the time. So, I'm not really sure what his decision was.

Etch does get away with a lot of unsporting crap, and I wish they would deal with it a bit more. The stadium was quite loud at the point when he went off dribbling down the sideline. I suspect he didn't hear the whistle at first and just kept going. Obviously anyone who's played the game as long as he has knows that when everyone else has stopped playing that something is up. I think the amount of time wasting that goes on in MLS in general is a terrible thing. All of the teams do it to one degree or another. Some players are better about hiding it than others. I would be the last person to defend Marco as being a saint. Frankly though, I guess you could call him both smart and unsporting. If the referees aren't going to make him pay then he is smart to keep pushing the envelope.

In a way Dayak's tantrum was paid for by the ensuing goal by Villegas which occurred while he was busy trying to get even with Marco instead of playing defense.

I have to admit that I don't remember the PK or not situation you allude to, probably because it wasn't against us and was at the other end of the field from where I sit. I'm sure Moreno probably did go down easy to get a free kick at the top of the box. Just like DeRosario and Graziani did over and over and over again in the game the same two teams played in SJ a few weeks ago. However, he also did battle hard to stay on his feet earlier in the game when Hack Ibsen tried to wipe him out when he went in basically on a breakaway but squibbed his final shot wide. Moreno gets fouled a lot, some of it gets called and some doesn't. So, I would suggest that it probably all evens out in the end. Just as I'm sure Landon gets fouled a lot too. He's certainly no saint either, whether MLS tries to market him that way or not.

I would suggest that it's a stretch to say refs are afraid to make calls vs DC. See the game in SJ for evidence of that. The total fouls in this week's game were 16-12 which is fairly even. We've all seen referees make no call many times when a player goes down in the area. It's possible for a player to go down and there not be a foul or a dive involved. The fact that SJ had 4 cautions to 0 for DC however is a bit difficult to explain. Richie did foul a lot and deserved a caution. Just as SJ was fouling Quintanilla a lot and deserved a caution for that persistent infringement. But you never see that called.

I'm afraid this is turning into an MLS rivalry thread now. :-) But I guess it also points out again how two people can watch the same game and come to differing conclusions with regard to performance of the referee.

[KMJvet]

Originally posted by GlennAA11

I'm afraid this is turning into an MLS rivalry thread now. :-) But I guess it also points out again how two people can watch the same game and come to differing conclusions with regard to performance of the referee.

It's not... your reply is quite reasonable. The reason I say refs are afraid to call things on DC now actually started with the DC game in San Jose. I base that statement in large measure on the referee of that match not giving Prideaux his second yellow for the two-handed push down of Landon after the play was dead. Landon wasn't tapped and then chose to fall down to get a call. It was an aggressive two-handed push in the back and that's always brings a card in MLS, expect in that game it didn't. Not that I'd let Rob Stone be the judge of anything, but Rob and Ty were treating it as a certain send-off from the moment it happened and just knew the card would come, only it didn't. So, it's not all calls against DC that the refs are afraid to make, and certainly not little inconsequential fouls here and there. It's ones like the Prideqaux situation where they turn a blind eye rather than have to hear Ray Hudson accuse and complain they're too harsh by following the letter of the law. I think that same fear protected Etcheverry from the card and PK on the trip of Landon in the first half. It's a little hard to see on the TV, but based on his arrival time at the scene, I think Marufo did see the play.

I think you're quite right that the Donovan brought the diving card upon himself by his ridiculous histrionic way of falling. He did that most of last year and I'd thought he'd learned his lesson, but alas no. I hope this will teach him to just play the game and stop trying to help the referee make calls.
But I still think it's an interesting refereeing question as to whether they can call both the foul and dive (for embellishment) or if they must pick one or the other. It seems to me, there are lots of plays where it's both. I think we see much more embellishment than complete fabrication. The dives by Totti and Diouff in the WC being notable exceptions.

In terms of Quintanilla, I guess I don't recall a lot of multiple fouls on him. I remember a sort of rough one out near midfield and I remember one instance that I thought was rather a dive. I think they're were a couple of instances where Agoos muscled him off the ball with what appeared from a distance to be a shoulder charge, but the plays weren't replayed from a little closer perspective so I don't know that they weren't actually pushes... you could well be right.

Zak Ibsen is a hack--no argument from me on that.

Although Graziani loves his melodrama, I honestly believe he's been suffered more uncalled fouls than anyone in this league...particularly getting pushed from behind. Unfortunately, he's decided when that happens now to let go of his weight and sit down--it looks quite stupid really.

You're right that all teams are guilty at times of time wasting. We have one player in particular on our team... Joe Cannon.


It's possible for a player to go down and there not be a foul or a dive involved.


True, there's incidental contact. But when it comes to tripping specifically as the foul in question, I personally think incidental contact it relatively uncommon. Most trips that go uncalled, are IMO, fear by the referee being only 75% or 85% or 95% sure or such and thus, just opting to "no call" rather take a risk to get it wrong. I think when what makes a player go down is a push, with all the jostling that goes on the penalty box from players trying to play the ball, incidental contact and both players pushing each other is a lot more common.

-KMJvet

[pacref]

Moderator's please close this thread. It has gone way off of the subject I started.

[deep-throat]

Originally posted by MassachusettsRef
Also, a minor point, and I'm not sure if you know this, but MLS referees--starting this year--get two assessments per match. First, there is an ISO (in stadium inspector) who is a local national referee. That person debriefs the referee, as any other assessor would, after the match. The second assessment is a video assessment (that's the new component) from a select group of national/FIFA assessors who have been placed into an MLS assessor's 'pool'. Men like Silva, Baharmast, Bratsis, etc., are in this small group. Some here might know the more technical aspects of the process, but I'm pretty sure there's communication between the ISO and the "assessor", so that the assessor is not just going by the video.

A minor point - and first I agree this has gone way off topic - there IS NOT two assessmensts per match in MLS this year! The ISO is only allowed to go to the llocker room if he has a specific question on something that he needs clarification on to help in his report to the assessor. He IS NOT to debrief the crew and is certainly NOT allowed to state his opinion. He absolutely provides input to the assessment but whether there is any use made of that is up to the 'real' assessor. The ISO is specifically told that he is not to question the crew nor give his opinions to them. In brief - there is still only one assessor with one person talking to the refs (the assessor via phone or email) but there may be multiple inputs (including the ISO).

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by pacref
Moderator's please close this thread. It has gone way off of the subject I started.

I will probably leave this thread open. It has gotten seriously off track. However, splitting the thread would lose some of the continuity, and the continuing discussion is useful.

KMJ, please feel free to start a new thread when you want to bring up unrelated points or questions.

Thanks to all for your comments.

[mcontento]

Not trying to defend Noel Kenny because he does suck. But maybe he really did ask for the rest of the season off.

I mean lets for arguments sake say he's dealing with something bad at home (Like cancer for a close family member) and MLS HQ came down on him with the "Hey this is 2 failing grades, Noel, we can't have that" and he said "well my head isn't in it right now, maybe I need some time" and they agreed.

[KMJvet]

Originally posted by IASocFan


KMJ, please feel free to start a new thread when you want to bring up unrelated points or questions.


Will do.... I know this is not the first time I've ended up dragging a thread off topic... I'll try to be more aware of my propensity :)
But if no one steps up to comment on my questions about offsides and the dummy as a play of the ball and about the validity of calling a foul and giving a yellow for simulation on the same play, then I'll start a couple on new threads for those questions.

thanks,

-KMJvet