If you took away Celtic and Rangers....

[Catfish]

would the SPL be a competitive and entertaining league. Who would be the powerhouse clubs?

[Scottish_Morton]

POS TEAM P W D L GD PTS
1 Heart Of Midlothian 10 7 2 1 13 23
2 Motherwell 9 5 2 2 5 17
3 Dundee 10 4 4 2 4 16
4 Hibernian 10 4 4 2 1 16
5 Livingston 10 4 3 3 4 15
6 Dunfermline 8 4 2 2 4 14
7 Kilmarnock 9 3 2 4 -4 11
8 Dundee Utd 10 2 4 4 -5 10
9 Aberdeen 10 2 1 7 -10 7
10 Partick Thistle 10 0 2 8 -12 2

Well, this is the SPL without the OF this season.

[markdickson]

Originally posted by Scottish_Morton
POS TEAM P W D L GD PTS
1 Heart Of Midlothian 10 7 2 1 13 23
2 Motherwell 9 5 2 2 5 17
3 Dundee 10 4 4 2 4 16
4 Hibernian 10 4 4 2 1 16
5 Livingston 10 4 3 3 4 15
6 Dunfermline 8 4 2 2 4 14
7 Kilmarnock 9 3 2 4 -4 11
8 Dundee Utd 10 2 4 4 -5 10
9 Aberdeen 10 2 1 7 -10 7
10 Partick Thistle 10 0 2 8 -12 2

Well, this is the SPL without the OF this season.

Champions League here we come!

[Catfish]

How competitive and entertaining would the SPL be???

Is the rest of the league just a feeder system for Celtic and Rangers? Are they just there so they have someone to play against?

[-cman-]

It is kind of insulting really to say the other clubs are just feeders for C&R. Are Middlesborough, Fulham & other routine mid- to low-table EPL clubs just feeders for Man U and the Gooners?

In certain parts of the country one could get a pretty sound beating for simply asking that question at the wrong time amongst the wrong crowd. ;)

Not that I'm saying you meant to insult anyone. Just think about the question for a moment.

Arguably it would be a more lively league without the OF. But it seems that in most middle-of-the-road leagues in Europe the invariable tendency seems to be that eventually one or two clubs accrete enough in the way of success and the money that follows that they come to dominate their leagues year after year, e.g. see the Dutch, Portugese and Polish Leagues. Quick, name a Polish first division side other than Wisla Krakov!

So, even without C&R eventually the new powerhouse(s) would arrive and we would have everyone bitching how Hearts and Hibs dominate the league year in and year out and what a bore it is. :D

[Holyjoe]

Put it this way:

Since 1983 in England there have been 6 different winners of the League (out of approx 20 teams in the top division, 92 in all), whereas in Scotland there have been 4 different winners of the league (out of approx 10 teams in the top division, 40 in all).

I know the top leagues in each country have fluctuated in number of teams, but which is the most competitive now then? ;)

[Catfish]

DOH!!! You both make excellent points. I know that the Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Argentinian, Brasilian, and German leagues all have a couple of perennial powerhouses. I guess I will have to either jump on a few of the winning clubs bandwagons or maybe there will be some slight chance that I find a connection ie. pen pal in some of those countries or (ancestoral relation to a city where a lesser club plays that would only be in Germany and Scotland).

[-cman-]

Originally posted by Catfish
DOH!!! You both make excellent points. I know that the Dutch, Spanish, Italian, Argentinian, Brasilian, and German leagues all have a couple of perennial powerhouses. I guess I will have to either jump on a few of the winning clubs bandwagons or maybe there will be some slight chance that I find a connection ie. pen pal in some of those countries or (ancestoral relation to a city where a lesser club plays that would only be in Germany and Scotland).

That's basically the way I did it when I went about trying to figure out a team in Europe to follow. Ancestral home = Cork = Cork City; Irish Football coverage on US TV = 0; What's a team with Irish roots that I could actually reasonably be expected to find a game or two to watch?

Celtic F.C.

Q.E.D.

Similarly I root for Borussia Dortmund in the Bundesliga because they have Koller and Rossiki, two Czech giants. I used to work and live in the Czech Republic.

Have fun!

[Catfish]

I'm trying that. I have Irish, Scottish, and English roots on my Dad's side. A Few of the Irish are Catholics, some Protestants. 2 Scottish Ancestors (Protestants obviously) (one near Glasgow, and another way up in the Highlands...closest to them is Aberdeen) and MOST of my Dad's British roots are English Protestants.

My mom's side is Polish and German. The Germans were Kahlers. I have no idea where they are from in Germany...i look like my Dad's side.

[Scottish_Morton]

I would like to see Scottish football without the old firm. It would be best for both sides. Crowds would go up because of competition and many old firm fans would go along to see their local side as a second team.

Lets face it, it would be worth the risk because you can't get much worse than the SPL is at the moment.

[chinaglia]

Up the 'Well!!!! Go Motherwell.

[MeridianFC]

One thing to keep in mind with all the speculation about the OF playing in an expanded English football league or some cobbled together Atlantic League, they'd both still be there in Glasgow attracting fans. Sure it might (probably) make the SPL more competitive and that might help crowds and revenue somewhat, but it's not going to turn the rest of the Scottish league into a cash generating machine. It's a far more complex issue than "boot the Old Firm out" thing.

What would probably help the SPL the most is if some seriously monied investors put some £ into some of the other teams. Abeerden, both Embra teams, and even the Dundee teams could probably be more of a force than they are.

Keep in mind that the population of Scotland is around 5 million, and while there's a large ex-pat/diaspora out there, it's a relatively small base of supporters to draw from. Don't forget to factor in the portion of the populace who's focus is Rugby (not insignificant).

[Scottish_Morton]

Originally posted by MeridianFC
One thing to keep in mind with all the speculation about the OF playing in an expanded English football league or some cobbled together Atlantic League, they'd both still be there in Glasgow attracting fans. Sure it might (probably) make the SPL more competitive and that might help crowds and revenue somewhat, but it's not going to turn the rest of the Scottish league into a cash generating machine. It's a far more complex issue than "boot the Old Firm out" thing.

Keep in mind that the population of Scotland is around 5 million, and while there's a large ex-pat/diaspora out there, it's a relatively small base of supporters to draw from. Don't forget to factor in the portion of the populace who's focus is Rugby (not insignificant).

Point is that these clubs outside the OF have the potential to get bigger crowds. When Killie were challenging for the league a few years ago they were attracting crowds of 15000, now more like 6000. I know many Killie fans who have stopped going to games because the league is not competitive. If they had a chance of winning the league they would go back. Most of the other SPL clubs are in the same position.

It's not a case of booting them out, it's a case of them wanting to go and us wanting them gone!

Rugby fans? Seriously? Egg chasing has the same popularity as junior football! and only in a small area in the east borders. Many people follow the national rugby union team(including me) but only really as a second sport to football.

[Holyjoe]

Originally posted by Catfish
(one near Glasgow, and another way up in the Highlands...closest to them is Aberdeen)

Only if you want to follow an SPL side...

Otherwise you've got Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Ross County, Elgin City and Peterhead all up there in the Highlands.

I'd suggest Aberdeen myself though, but I'm biased ;)