1899 Hoffenheim 08/09 thread [R]

[footyfan1]

Hello 1860?????

Nah. Word is Copado is going back to Unterhaching to help them try to get back to the 2nd Bundesliga.

I suspect Seitz may think about that too, although 1860 might make a play for him.

[footyfan1]

I really respect Klinsmann for this. When it comes to 1899 he has always been fair and smart. Can't not say this for his bosses...


That's because Klinsmann respects his closest competition, he doesn't fear them.

Hoeness, Rummenigge and Beckenbauer don't usually fear their closest competition, but I think they fear TSG because they know they can't take down TSG the way they did Leverkusen and Bremen by stealing their key players with better money.

[panicfc]

Can you give me a simple translation on those?

[squidward123]

footy, made some modifications to ur teams?

[footyfan1]

footy, made some modifications to ur teams?

No. Just put them back up there. I just bought the "Gold" membership and am messing around with some stuff. :o

[squidward123]

No. Just put them back up there. I just bought the "Gold" membership and am messing around with some stuff. :o

badass

they just begun advertising it recently till u buy it ay

how much and tell us the perks when u find out

[footyfan1]

badass

they just begun advertising it recently till u buy it ay

how much and tell us the perks when u find out


I didn't get any advertising. I've been posting here for so long, I felt it was time to actually support the site.

[squidward123]

I didn't get any advertising. I've been posting here for so long, I felt it was time to actually support the site.

i swear there was a "upgrade to bigsoccer club" or something at the top right when i wrote that to u

i might do it too actually

haha, whats up with the quote? showin the NT some love here? ;):D


and u dropped barca back a spot?

[The Old Lady Hertha]

I can't afford to pay this site anymore... :S

[footyfan1]

haha, whats up with the quote? showin the NT some love here? ;):D

No. I just think it is one of the all-time great football quotes.


and u dropped barca back a spot?

No. They were always at #3, but my #2 wouldn't show up. So I switched them for Man U. to show. Barca is my #3.

[hackespitze123]

He is a very good coach, but man, is he full of himself or what?

Ralf Ragnick: "At Hoffenheim, no one earns more money than me"

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/bundesliga/vereine/hoffenheim/2008/12/22/trainer-ralf-rangnick/verdient-mehr-als-alle-spieler.html

"Those who have the greatest responsibility should earn the most. It's no different in big companies like Daimler, Siemens or SAP."

That really sounds a lot like Mourinho, who said something similar a while ago after taking the job at Inter.

Ragnick earns €2m a year. That might be a good salary for a coach, but for a player, even in the relatively 'sane' Bundesliga, that's really not much. At Werder, a club not exactly known for spending a lot on wages, Diego and Frings earn at least twice as much, for example. Not even mentioning Bayern's much higher wages.

So if he wants to have the highest salary at his club, either they need to increase his wages considerably in the coming years, or Hoffenheim simply won't be able to attract top players. Besides, the fans pay to watch the players, not the coach / manager. And they don't buy Ragnick shirts, but Ibisevic, Obasi or God knows who. They'd probably rather buy Hopp shirts than Ragnick ones even...

[footyfan1]

He is a very good coach, but man, is he full of himself or what?

Ralf Ragnick: "At Hoffenheim, no one earns more money than me"

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/fussball/bundesliga/vereine/hoffenheim/2008/12/22/trainer-ralf-rangnick/verdient-mehr-als-alle-spieler.html

"Those who have the greatest responsibility should earn the most. It's no different in big companies like Daimler, Siemens or SAP."

That really sounds a lot like Mourinho, who said something similar a while ago after taking the job at Inter.

Ragnick earns €2m a year. That might be a good salary for a coach, but for a player, even in the relatively 'sane' Bundesliga, that's really not much. At Werder, a club not exactly known for spending a lot on wages, Diego and Frings earn at least twice as much, for example. Not even mentioning Bayern's much higher wages.

So if he wants to have the highest salary at his club, either they need to increase his wages considerably in the coming years, or Hoffenheim simply won't be able to attract top players. Besides, the fans pay to watch the players, not the coach / manager. And they don't buy Ragnick shirts, but Ibisevic, Obasi or God knows who. They'd probably rather buy Hopp shirts than Ragnick ones even...

I didn't see where Rangnick claimed the fans come to watch him. He gave an opinion.

It might be a stupid one to some of us, but it is his opinion.

And it also is another fact that shows that Hoffenheim isn't doing this simply by spending Hopp's money.

It seems to me Hoffenheim is not going to go the route of Bayern, Chelsea, Man U. and others, but they seem to have chosen the route of Porto, Ajax and others.

Find the talents, build them, keep them as long as possible, sell them along when you can't and bring along the next ones.

In a system like that, yeah, the coach will be the highest-paid person. That helps cement his authority.

If they can be successful that way, then why not???

[hackespitze123]

They've already contradicted that approach, if that really is their long term plan, with the Hildebrand transfer. Latest that is, one could argue that the Carlos Eduardo transfer last year was already a contradiction (€7m transfer for a 2. Bundesliga club).

Oh well, my impression is that Hoffenheim want to establish themselves as a top club in Germany. They did a very good job so far (money alone isn't enough, you need to spend it wisely - Manchester City is the best example how not to do it), but it really doesn't look like they are reluctant to do the next step, signing high profile players. Sooner or later, they will add players to their squad who will earn considerably more than €2m a year, I am very sure about that.

And Ragnick, he is just full of himself, that is all. Very good coach, like Mourinho, but very vain. That could backfire one day, at least it wouldn't surprise me.

P.S.: I mentioned the shirt sales to make a point - players earn more than coaches for a reason - merchandising, ticket sales, you name it.

[footyfan1]

They've already contradicted that approach, if that really is their long term plan, with the Hildebrand transfer. Latest that is, one could argue that the Carlos Eduardo transfer last year was already a contradiction (€7m transfer for a 2. Bundesliga club).

How did they contradict anything with those transfers? Because they spent more than the teams they were competing with?

That part is true and cannot be denied, but compare the number of those transfers to the number of players they have who were cheap and are contributing as much to that team.

As a matter of fact, I did it already. It is somewhere in this thread.

On Hildebrand, what did they contradict?? They got a star on a FREE TRANSFER. And?? He must not be making more than Rangnick or else Rangnick was just lying to us.

Even Ajax back in their heyday mixed cheap veterans in with their talents. Hoffenheim hasn't "contradicted" anything.




Oh well, my impression is that Hoffenheim want to establish themselves as a top club in Germany. They did a very good job so far (money alone isn't enough, you need to spend it wisely - Manchester City is the best example how not to do it), but it really doesn't look like they are reluctant to do the next step, signing high profile players. Sooner or later, they will add players to their squad who will earn considerably more than €2m a year, I am very sure about that.

I don't know about that. In the Bundesliga, you can be successful without breaking the bank on players. It is just rarely done because one club does break the bank more than anyone else.......


And Ragnick, he is just full of himself, that is all. Very good coach, like Mourinho, but very vain. That could backfire one day, at least it wouldn't surprise me.

It seems to me you don't like the guy. I'm not his biggest fan, but I think you went a bit overboard on him.

Believe me, I also think that at times Ralf Rangnick's lets this "genius" crap go to his head.

But it is hard to argue with what he's done. Not just at Hoffenheim, but at Ulm and Schalke too.

Even at Stuttgart, which was branded a failure, I still think Rangnick helped lay the foundation for Magath's success even though Trappatoni came between them.


P.S.: I mentioned the shirt sales to make a point - players earn more than coaches for a reason - merchandising, ticket sales, you name it.

I don't disagree. Believe me, I'm a person who understands why the top players make the money they do.

However, if you're going to run a program such as the one I laid out, it isn't surprising that you keep the manager at the top of the salary chain for as long as possible.......

[hackespitze123]

The contradiction is that Hildebrand is anything but young, anything but "unknown", and his resale value is most likely not going to increase in future either. In this context, the Carlos Eduardo transfer was actually less of a contradiciton, but it still was, simply because of the credo that was repeated ad nauseam by Hoffenheim officials: "We invest in our own youth, and only buy cheap young players who we can develop to class players."

Carlos Eduardo cost €7m, was already known as a class player in Brazil, albeit a young one, and was chased by a good number of European clubs, good clubs playing in the first division of their respective leagues that is. Not exactly the type of player Hoffenheim supposedly wants.

The Hildebrand transfer was widely seen as this 'next step' I am talking about btw., here is an example of an article that argues in a similar fashion (German):

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,595607,00.html

And Ragnick, I just don't think that his arrogance is justified. He is without a doubt a very good coach, an excellent tactician, a type of coach we still lack in the league unfortunately, but to be perfectly honest, he hasn't won anything so far to be so full of himself. And he is an extremely sore loser, which doesn't help either.

[footyfan1]

The contradiction is that Hildebrand is anything but young, anything but "unknown", and his resale value is most likely not going to increase in future either. In this context, the Carlos Eduardo transfer was actually less of a contradiciton, but it still was, simply because of the credo that was repeated ad nauseam by Hoffenheim officials: "We invest in our own youth, and only buy cheap young players who we can develop to class players."

Carlos Eduardo cost €7m, was already known as a class player in Brazil, albeit a young one, and was chased by a good number of European clubs, good clubs playing in the first division of their respective leagues that is. Not exactly the type of player Hoffenheim supposedly wants.

The Hildebrand transfer was widely seen as this 'next step' I am talking about btw., here is an example of an article that argues in a similar fashion (German):

http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/0,1518,595607,00.html


Again, look at old Ajax teams. Look at FC Porto. Look at Arsenal now.

Show me a successful European club which grows their own youngsters who doesn't throw in a veteran or two??

Show me one.

No club ever found success with youngsters alone. Those Ajax teams of the mid-90s came the closest. However, even if there's just one or two vets, you'll find them there.

As far as this Hildebrand thing being "the next step", I don't think so. I see a team that needed a goalkeeping upgrade and they found a guy who is among the best German keepers on a free transfer.

If Hildebrand had not come free at this time, are you going to suggest they would have gone after him anyhow??

Before Hildebrand became available, I was hearing they were interested in Kaiserslautern's young keeper Sippel and Bielefeld's Dennis Eilhoff.

To not go after Hildebrand would have been stupid. Just like I think it is a bit silly to try to limit them to one type of "acceptable" player just because their goal is to operate that way.

Almost anyone who is or was at one time successful has deviated from a plan at one stage or another to move forward or to survive. The lower leagues are full of those who wouldn't.

Bayern once claimed they would never play world market prices for players.

What happened with Ribery??

Does that make Bayern total hypocrites (OK, so they already were! ;) ) now or did they simply do what they had to do to compete???

I think that's a seriously "holier than thou" point of view you've got on Hoffenheim man.



And Ragnick, I just don't think that his arrogance is justified. He is without a doubt a very good coach, an excellent tactician, a type of coach we still lack in the league unfortunately, but to be perfectly honest, he hasn't won anything so far to be so full of himself. And he is an extremely sore loser, which doesn't help either.

He believes his own press. Players are guilty of that too. If you keep hearing that you're a genius, pretty soon, you'll start to believe it.

I'm not saying he's right and I certainly am not a fan of his attitude, but I understand where it comes from.

[hackespitze123]

I won't disagree with that, but that's actually the point. Every team, especially if it wants to establish itself at the top, needs veteran players. But so far, that has not been Hoffenheim's philosophy, that's where the contradiction, or to be more precise, change of strategy, lies. Besides, not Ajax, but Arsenal is the real role model for Hoffenheim. Arsenal's very strict youth policy does backfire though, I know a lot of Gunners who'd really like Wenger to sign players with pubic hair...

Hildebrand for me, and not just for me (-> article), is clearly a sign of the "next step": Hoffenheim most likely didn't expect this step to come soon, they didn't expect to be this successful so fast, but they know that if they want to stay at the top of the table in the second half, they need to improve in certain areas, the goal keeper being the most obvious one. And instead of 'risking' another young, unproven keeper, they go for the safe bet with Hildebrand, an established older player who, and I think this really can't be denied, is not the type of player Hoffenheim's scouts usually have on their radar.
It was known for months that Hildebrand had no future in Valencia, and wanted to move back to the Bundesliga.

Hoffenheim's long term strategy is to establish themselves as a top club in Germany. They just didn't expect to be at the top so soon, that's why everything is 'accelerated' now, including the next step in signing established players. I'm very sure that Hildebrand will not be the last.

[footyfan1]

I won't disagree with that, but that's actually the point. Every team, especially if it wants to establish itself at the top, needs veteran players. But so far, that has not been Hoffenheim's philosophy, that's where the contradiction, or to be more precise, change of strategy, lies. Besides, not Ajax, but Arsenal is the real role model for Hoffenheim. Arsenal's very strict youth policy does backfire though, I know a lot of Gunners who'd really like Wenger to sign players with pubic hair...

LOL!!!

I do believe Arsenal is the example of a program that went too young, too fast. But it also didn't help them that Rosicky has been sidelined for about a darned year.


Hildebrand for me, and not just for me (-> article), is clearly a sign of the "next step": Hoffenheim most likely didn't expect this step to come soon, they didn't expect to be this successful so fast, but they know that if they want to stay at the top of the table in the second half, they need to improve in certain areas, the goal keeper being the most obvious one. And instead of 'risking' another young, unproven keeper, they go for the safe bet with Hildebrand, an established older player who, and I think this really can't be denied, is not the type of player Hoffenheim's scouts usually have on their radar. It was known for months that Hildebrand had no future in Valencia, and wanted to move back to the Bundesliga.

Dude, I don't put much stock in articles. I used to write myself. These guys opinions don't mean anymore to me than yours does. I think your opinion is just as good.

However, you didn't answer the question I asked you. The question I asked was "do you think Hoffenheim would have gone after Hildebrand had he not been released from his contract?"

I believe what Hildebrand wanted didn't matter at the time. I believe the only reason Hildebrand is back in the Bundesliga now is because he got Valencia to grant him a full release.

I don't believe Hoffenheim would have signed him had he not been released from his contract.

I truly believe they were looking for an upgrade and not a star. The guy who told me about Sippel and Eilhoff having been discussed is a very good source. Not a "Hoffenheim insider", but a guy in the know.

Sippel would have cost them maybe 1M. Eilhoff would have been available on a free after this season and was just rated by Kicker as the third best keeper in the Bundesliga in the first half of the season.

I think had Hildebrand not been released on a free or at least a very cheap price, Eilhoff would have moved to Hoffenheim for next season.



Hoffenheim's long term strategy is to establish themselves as a top club in Gernamy. They just didn't expect to be at the top so soon, that's why everything is 'accelerated' now, including the next step in signing established players. I'm very sure that Hildebrand will not be the last.

I didn't say he would be. But I think you and the writer of the article are quite presumptious to assume that this signing of Hildebrand is a "next step."

Hoffenheim has stated over and over that while they have been successful faster than they ever dreamed, they would stay the course. I believe they have largely done so.

I don't see Hildebrand's signing as them veering from that course. I think they realized they wouldn't be able to get a better keeper on a free transfer and had to go for it. I think this deal fell into their laps.

Of everything you have said here, the one thing I don't see you or the author saying is how much SENSE this deal makes for the player and the club.

Hoffenheim needed a goalkeeping upgrade. It was the one position they had doubts about. One of the best German goalkeepers out there becomes available on a free. Why is this anything but Hoffenheim taking advantage of an unexpected surprise? The surprise being that Hildebrand became available on a free?

By all accounts I can get, Hoffenheim had no link to Hildebrand until after he was released from his contract. There was speculation that both Borussias talked to Hildebrand before he was released from the contract, but not Hoffenheim.

I don't think it was a coincidence that Dortmund and Weidenfeller quickly agreed on an extension just after Hildebrand signed with Hoffenheim.......

In my eyes, Hoffenheim taking advantage of a top keeper becoming available on a free transfer is hardly "taking the next step."

I think it is simply taking advantage of a great deal falling into your lap.


What does this do for Hildebrand? Well, not only does it put him back on the map immediately, as the article says, it reunites him with the coach who gave him his first shot in the Bundesliga.

Ralf Rangnick.

It also allows Hildebrand to play and live close to home.

"Next step?" I can see why you would think that with the good points the article made, but I don't think this is any "next step." I think this is a deal that made perfect sense for both parties involved.

However, it clearly didn't make perfect sense for Hoffenheim until Hildebrand became "free."

I do believe if Hoffenheim finishes in the top five at the end of the season, THEN you will see them go after more people to take that "next step......"

Again, I think the Hildebrand deal was one that makes perfect sense for them and it simply fell into their laps.

Other than that, had Hildebrand not come free or at a decent price, I think they would have been perfectly content to go with one of the others.

Eilhoff would have still been a good upgrade over both Oezcan and Haas.......

[panicfc]

How's this for philosophy: Rangnick felt, and most will agree that they needed a better goalkeeper, and their defense would improve even more with an experienced one.

Timo became available, price was right, he's already been through a title chase, is an upgrade and that was that.

as for Ralfie boys comments - whatever. Take all the coaches quotes and they are mostly jibberish.

Heck check out Gordon Strachan, now that guy can give a good quote.

[footyfan1]

How's this for philosophy: Rangnick felt, and most will agree that they needed a better goalkeeper, and their defense would improve even more with an experienced one.

Timo became available, price was right, he's already been through a title chase, is an upgrade and that was that.

as for Ralfie boys comments - whatever. Take all the coaches quotes and they are mostly jibberish.

Heck check out Gordon Strachan, now that guy can give a good quote.


Why can't I ever say things that quickly?! LOL!! :D