Manchester United - Rangers CL Match Day 4 [R]

[Motterman]

ESPN2
Tue November 4 2:30 pm ET
UEFA CHAMPIONS LEAGUE
MANCHESTER UNITED FC VS. RANGERS FC

Scottish champions Rangers were hoping to make amends at Old Trafford for their 1-0 home defeat by English counterparts Manchester United FC on Matchday 3 but have been robbed of the services of German midfield player Christian Nerlinger and Dutch defender Fernando Ricksen.

Of course, United are without Scholes and Solskjaer. (and Brown and Kleberson)

[Mon Dieu]

i actaully heard that Kleberson will be in the squad

[Motterman]

Originally posted by Mon Dieu
i actaully heard that Kleberson will be in the squad

I'd be shocked that he'd be thrown into such a big match, without even a Reserve match run out after such long a layoff.

Oh wait, I do remember Fergie gambling with Veron against Real Madrid last year....and we all know how THAT turned out. :rolleyes:

[Motterman]

You're right:

Manchester United (from): Howard, G Neville, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Fortune, Ronaldo, Fletcher, Keane, P Neville, Giggs, van Nistelrooy, Silvestre, Butt, Forlan, Djemba-Djemba, Bellion, Kleberson, Lynch, Carroll.

Fergie apparently waiting on Silvestre's fitness as well.

[haven]

Originally posted by Motterman
You're right:

Manchester United (from): Howard, G Neville, Ferdinand, O'Shea, Fortune, Ronaldo, Fletcher, Keane, P Neville, Giggs, van Nistelrooy, Silvestre, Butt, Forlan, Djemba-Djemba, Bellion, Kleberson, Lynch, Carroll.

Fergie apparently waiting on Silvestre's fitness as well.

Lynch. *horror*

What is it with Fergie and that guy? He's been not only bad, but spectacularly horrible in every game he's played for Utd. Guys like Richardson and Eagles may be younger, but at least they're not 100% pure crap. But for whatever reason, whenever there are injuries or a meaningless game, he always gets put in the squad.

I keep expecting him to be sent on loan to the Ryman league or something... can't imagine him being good even in the Nationwide. Strikesr in the US A-League would eat him for breakfast.

[Achtung]

So then what are we looking at...

----------RVN----------
Giggs---Fortune---Forlan
-----Keane----Dj2-----
O'Shea---Rio---Silvestre?---G Neville

If not Silvestre, who could fill in at the back? Hopefully we won't have to worry about that.

[Ferris]

Originally posted by Achtung
So then what are we looking at...

----------RVN----------
Giggs---Fortune---Forlan
-----Keane----Dj2-----
O'Shea---Rio---Silvestre?---G Neville

If not Silvestre, who could fill in at the back? Hopefully we won't have to worry about that.
Well, Fortune has been played at the back before...they may push Neville in the middle and have O'Shea on the right. In that case I wouldn't be surprised if P. Neville started in the midfield.

[Motterman]

This is how I think we'll line up:

RVN - Forlan
Giggs - Keane - Butt - P. Nev/Fletcher
Silv/Fortune - Rio - O'Shea - G. Nev
Howard

[haven]

Originally posted by Ferris Beuler
Well, Fortune has been played at the back before...they may push Neville in the middle and have O'Shea on the right. In that case I wouldn't be surprised if P. Neville started in the midfield.

Why do you think Fergie is so eager to put Phil Neville in the middle? *That* goal aside, Fortune pretty clearly provides more attacking impetus, something Utd are a little short of at the moment. Besides which, Keane, Butt, and DJ2 are all good defensive midfielders. Fortune is better on the ball. To me, the logical decision is to start Neville at the back, and Fortune in a more advanced midfield role... but for whatever reason, Fergie does the reverse.

While it's nice to see Fortune steaming up the flank... his attackign abilities seem a bit wasted there.

[Motterman]

Originally posted by haven
Why do you think Fergie is so eager to put Phil Neville in the middle? *That* goal aside, Fortune pretty clearly provides more attacking impetus, something Utd are a little short of at the moment. Besides which, Keane, Butt, and DJ2 are all good defensive midfielders. Fortune is better on the ball. To me, the logical decision is to start Neville at the back, and Fortune in a more advanced midfield role... but for whatever reason, Fergie does the reverse.

While it's nice to see Fortune steaming up the flank... his attackign abilities seem a bit wasted there.

Well, I think he'll put Forlan up top with Ruud and rely on Giggs and Keane going forward for the attacking part of our play. I think he's very conscious of getting caught out on the break, so I expect a very solid defensive lineup behind them with lots of possession being the gameplan.

[Achtung]

Originally posted by haven
Why do you think Fergie is so eager to put Phil Neville in the middle? *That* goal aside, Fortune pretty clearly provides more attacking impetus, something Utd are a little short of at the moment. Besides which, Keane, Butt, and DJ2 are all good defensive midfielders. Fortune is better on the ball. To me, the logical decision is to start Neville at the back, and Fortune in a more advanced midfield role... but for whatever reason, Fergie does the reverse.

While it's nice to see Fortune steaming up the flank... his attackign abilities seem a bit wasted there.

That's the main reason I stuck Fortune up at the main ACM position where you would normally see Scholes. I think he can work well there, its just that he hasn't been needed because we generally have had a strong midfield. But now with Becks and Veron gone, and Scholes out, it could be time for him to show if he can be a scorer. I see him supporting Forlan, though both players have been notoriously inconsistent. Ronaldo and Fletcher are still very young, so I get the feeling we may even see Keane move forward more, with Butt playing back.

But its all speculation until tomorrow.

[haven]

Originally posted by Motterman
Well, I think he'll put Forlan up top with Ruud and rely on Giggs and Keane going forward for the attacking part of our play. I think he's very conscious of getting caught out on the break, so I expect a very solid defensive lineup behind them with lots of possession being the gameplan.

Bleh... with absolutely nobody to coordinate attacks.

Giggs? He can tear a defense apart, but he's not someone you really build through. Keane? I'm not convinced he can do it for 90 minutes and commit himself fully to winning the ball. Forlan? Please.

I'm more concerned with a 0-0 draw than I am Rangers outscoring Man Utd in an attacking game. Really don't like the idea of playing defensively at home to inferior opposition.

Fewer opportunities means chance has more of a role to play, sometimes... which is bad for us :(.

[Motterman]

Originally posted by haven

I'm more concerned with a 0-0 draw than I am Rangers outscoring Man Utd in an attacking game. Really don't like the idea of playing defensively at home to inferior opposition.


I'm not concerned about a 0-0 result, I'm concerned going down a goal early because we were overzealous in pressing. It's happened before:

Fergie:
"Rangers know they have to get a result if they want to progress in this group, we know if we win we are 80-90% certain of qualifying but in games like this you have to make sure you defend well. The counter attack becomes an issue. We have been caught on the counter attack quite a few times in games at Old Trafford particularly early on. Monaco five minutes, Borussia Dortmund seven minutes. When we started the quarter final last year Real Madrid had not got over the halfway line and the first time they did, after 15 minutes it was in the net. These are instances we remember. The counterattack is an issue and we have to make sure we handle that part.

Maybe go with a 4-5-1:

Ruud
Giggs - Keane - Fletcher
Butt - P. Nev
Silv/Fort - Rio - O'Shea - G. Nev
Howard

If we need a goal, we have options on the bench in Ronaldo, Forlan, etc.. Or keep Keane on the bench to start, and then bring him in at half time and really start to press... Fergie has some options here, I don't know what he'll do.

This is a situation where a good No. 2 comes in handy, to be sure.

[Achtung]

Originally posted by haven
Bleh... with absolutely nobody to coordinate attacks.

Giggs? He can tear a defense apart, but he's not someone you really build through. Keane? I'm not convinced he can do it for 90 minutes and commit himself fully to winning the ball. Forlan? Please.

I'm more concerned with a 0-0 draw than I am Rangers outscoring Man Utd in an attacking game. Really don't like the idea of playing defensively at home to inferior opposition.

Fewer opportunities means chance has more of a role to play, sometimes... which is bad for us :(.

I've always thought Giggs could do a decent job of building up plays, moreso than most other midfielders. I know we tend to think of him as a dribbler who can pull defenses away from Ruud and Scholes, but he is an excellent passer, and I think he's got pretty good vision.

I agree that Keane may not go 90, but he's still very capable of giving you 70 minutes of solid football.

Forlan is questionable here, but with the injuries we are dealing with, who else can come after Solskjaer and Scholes? Forlan is not our first choice, but he's what we've got now. Remember, he performed relatively well last season, even in CL, until his injury in Turin (the game in which Giggs came in as a sub and tore it up). And with his recent successes, even against feeble opposition, maybe he'll have the confidence he needs to take good shots for once. Maybe...

[gildarkevin]

Originally posted by haven
Why do you think Fergie is so eager to put Phil Neville in the middle? *That* goal aside, Fortune pretty clearly provides more attacking impetus, something Utd are a little short of at the moment. Besides which, Keane, Butt, and DJ2 are all good defensive midfielders. Fortune is better on the ball. To me, the logical decision is to start Neville at the back, and Fortune in a more advanced midfield role... but for whatever reason, Fergie does the reverse.

While it's nice to see Fortune steaming up the flank... his attackign abilities seem a bit wasted there.

I think it's because Phil is just a very organized, usually consistent player who has no huge aspirations to win you a game but he won't lose one for you at that position. He generally doesn't give the ball away, rather simply linking up with the other players from that central position. He also provides an additional line of defense ahead of the back 4.

Frankly, I'm a big fan of outside backs who can go forward, so I love to see Fortune at left back. Attacking players are generally lazy about defending, so most strikers and even midfielders don't track back to cover very well.

[haven]

Originally posted by gildarkevin
I think it's because Phil is just a very organized, usually consistent player who has no huge aspirations to win you a game but he won't lose one for you at that position. He generally doesn't give the ball away, rather simply linking up with the other players from that central position. He also provides an additional line of defense ahead of the back 4.

Errrp. He doesn't give the ball away? You're just flat out wrong there. Neville gives the ball away very easily on any pass longer than about 10 yards or so. He does serve as an excellent defender, though.

Frankly, I'm a big fan of outside backs who can go forward, so I love to see Fortune at left back. Attacking players are generally lazy about defending, so most strikers and even midfielders don't track back to cover very well.

Me too. Except for the fact that w/the single striker formation Utd employ, and the very defensive central midfield, there's nobody in the box to get on the end of crosses that attacking midfielders supply. If Utd were playing w/two strikes and Scholes maurading forward... I'd completely agree.

[johno]

Fergie has to start Forlan, he has scored in 3 straight games and with his inconsistency we might as well get use of him now while we have so many injuries and use him to help take some of the load off of Ruud. I think Ronaldo will be rested and come in as a sub for Fletcher or a DMid if we need a goal.

Fortune is excellent at left back not just because he can attack well and tracks back, but in the time he has played there, he has looked much better in defence than O'Shea (granted he has been off form) and he certainly tops them both while attacking although O'Shea has potential.

Under different circumstances the 4-5-1 would be prefered, but because we just played and will play again in less than a week, and also since Forlan has scored recently we will see the 4-4-2 which means that Keane must start and that he will probably partner Djemba Djemba and that they will take turns playing midfield anchor and leading the attack.

in the 4-5-1 Keane will again start but play an attacking roll with Dj and Phil/Butt behind him. (we may see that cuz fergie is rootless and may not mind sitting Forlan)

[gildarkevin]

Originally posted by haven
Errrp. He doesn't give the ball away? You're just flat out wrong there. Neville gives the ball away very easily on any pass longer than about 10 yards or so. He does serve as an excellent defender, though.

Well, you're right there. I guess my point really should have been that he keeps it simple. He really doesn't try for that longer pass very much, instead just trying to maintain possession and let the more skilled players do the work. That is both good and bad, of course, as you really can't go forward well with too many players like that; of course, you're not going to hand the game away too often.

I think the greatest improvement to Phil Neville's game over the past three or four years, and his greatest asset now, is that he realizes his limitations better. He's ably come to grips that of the group that came through the youth ranks together, he'll never be David Beckham. Hell, he'll never ever be Gary Neville. He's just Phil Neville, and he's modified his game to fit that ability.

[haven]

Originally posted by Motterman
I'm not concerned about a 0-0 result, I'm concerned going down a goal early because we were overzealous in pressing. It's happened before:


You sure you don't support Liverpool :p.

[Motterman]

Originally posted by haven
You sure you don't support Liverpool

Bite your tongue! http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/scary5.gif

What I meant was, there is no chance of a 0-0 result in this match. There is going to be goals. I want to be the club with more goals going into stoppage time... If Rangers get a goal, they will pack it in and play for the 1-0 win or settle for the 1-1 draw. THAT'S why we need to keep them from scoring first. http://pages.prodigy.net/bestsmileys1/emoticons1/evilshades.gif